Epic Gems in 4.3: A Critical Analysis

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11/29/2011 05:38 PMPosted by Kanivara
It will be alright as long as each boss drops say 4-5 gems (or 10-15 on 25man)


They don't. They drop a currency that buys a geode that gives ONE gem. Deathwing drops a geode that gives multiples.

While I don't actually give three (censored) about the PvPers, I don't like what it does to casuals or to servers like mine. We're like, 3rd from bottom on the progression list. My druid's a JC, and while I'd -like- to pick up the epic gem cuts, there's really no point in me doing so. I'm not going to see any of those gems on my druid. I'll be lucky to even win the roll on the gem itself.


This is wrong, gems are more rare than that. Each boss gives people a currency that CAN get any gem randomly. I got lucky and got 2 Epics from it(One Blue One Green). Deathwing, but only the second encounter, drops a token that ensures one epic gem, but I don't think anyone in our raid got more than 1, so I assume its always like that. So unless Heroics always drop the second currency, which I assume they don't because of what the second currency says(its description is being directly from Deathwing, first is described as being from his minions), then the first 7 bosses are a complete lottery on if any individual gets an epic gem(because I know a few people who didn't get a single one from those tokens), and always Deathwing drops 1 per person effectively, but it is also a random colour, so it being useful for any person is random.
It has been said throughout this thread already but I see major problems. Essentially there is a significant deficit in the JC exclusive gems at the moment. Epic gems are unreasonable to obtain currently for a full set of gear currently. The situation just reminds me of how scarce Maelstrom Crystals were at the start of the expansion, but this imo is far worse. I understand the desire to make an epic gem that is more difficult to obtain, but currently it’s either raid and cross your fingers you get an epic gem rather than alicite or another inferior gem from dark motes, or spend absurd amounts of gold to obtain them. This Seems more inefficient ant luck based than difficult to me.
I have a few suggestions/ ideas for solutions in addition to what was previously mentioned.

1. JC currently has a 51 stat gain opposed to a standard 80 or blacksmithing 100. Jeweler gems just need to be upgraded by 10. (15 for Stam gems, 13 for spell pen)

2 Dragon Soul Gems: Bags Bought with Dark Mote currency are filled with a random not guaranteed to be epic gem. There just simply needs to be an epic gem vendor where players can exchange their Dark mote currency for an epic gem of their choosing.

3. No Alchemy Transmutes for epic gems currently in the game. Add them to trainers.

4. No Means to prospect epic gems from ore currently. Make it a possibility off Pyrite

5. Make it so only one epic gem can be in active set of gear. This is going to be pretty unpopular and it is probably too late to even implement since I am sure people have already gotten multiple epic gems in their gear already, not to mention jewel crafters wasted tokens buying patterns they will seldom use.

6. Provide an epic gem rewards for Rated battle ground victories and arenas.

7. Make them purchasable for around 2000 for primary gems 1000 for hybrid justice points or honor. Currently very little to do with justice points after gear.
1. JC currently has a 51 stat gain opposed to a standard 80 or blacksmithing 100. Jeweler gems just need to be upgraded by 10. (15 for Stam gems, 13 for spell pen)

No, JC currently has the same 81 point stat gain it always had. BS has the same 80 stat gain. It isn't until you are fully geared with epic gems (no rare gems at all or compromising with less then BiS hybrids), that a discrepancy exists. A few months from now, when that becomes the case, Blizzard will adjust the stats as needed.

2. Dragon Soul Gems: Bags Bought with Dark Mote currency are filled with a random not guaranteed to be epic gem. There just simply needs to be an epic gem vendor where players can exchange their Dark mote currency for an epic gem of their choosing.

No, there doesn't. Just like crystals, epic gems are meant to be extremely rare. And with rare gems still being in demand, JC can still profit off of them instead of the price tanking as everyone re-gems epics.

3. No Alchemy Transmutes for epic gems currently in the game. Add them to trainers.

Once again, epic gems are supposed to be rare. So no need for epic gem transmutes to flood the market and crash the price of rare gems.

4. No Means to prospect epic gems from ore currently. Make it a possibility off Pyrite.

See #3.

5. Make it so only one epic gem can be in active set of gear. This is going to be pretty unpopular and it is probably too late to even implement since I am sure people have already gotten multiple epic gems in their gear already, not to mention jewel crafters wasted tokens buying patterns they will seldom use.

Why? Epic gems are limited to progression raiders right now and those rich enough to waste a 100k gold no BiS gear from the LAST tier of content.

6. Provide an epic gem rewards for Rated battle ground victories and arenas.

Can you buy S11 gear yet? No. So until next week, there is no answer to the availabilty of Epic gems for PvP players. As it stands, it will probably be at least 3 weeks before they even have gear to gem.

7. Make them purchasable for around 2000 for primary gems 1000 for hybrid justice points or honor. Currently very little to do with justice points after gear.

I half agree with this. Only I think honor and justice points should be used to purchase the same geodes available to raiders. So still no guarantee of epic gems, keeping them rare, but giving casuals a form of "lottery".
Well said.
A few posts in this thread have talked about how epic gem rarity 'requires' this kind of raid-only dropping. That's not exactly true. Blizzard seems to want the typical raiding player to get about 2 epics per week (one from Deathwing, perhaps one from the other bosses together), but that doesn't require only-raid-drop behaviour.

I'm obviously not Blizzard, but I'd like to see a couple changes more specific than just "doin' it diff'rent:"

  • A chance of receiving an epic gem from pyrium ore. If Blizzard wants to keep epic gems rare, than that drop chance doesn't need to be greater than 0.25% / prospect (meaning a full bag of pyrium turns into about one-quarter epic of random colour, on average), but as a matter of aesthetics gems really should be prospectable.
  • An upgraded Fiery prism for jewelcrafters. Perhaps requiring three rares of each colour, plus three chimera's eyes, on a one-week cooldown to produce one random epic gem.
  • An expensive one-week transmute for alchemists, to get a random-coloured gem (to as to not privilege alchemists over jewelcrafters). Perhaps something like three of each rare, plus five truegold, but this is just off the top of my head.

Neither of these would represent a greater supply of gems than is already supplied by raiding, but together they would give non-raiders a worthwhile way to filter epic gems into the community at large.

Also, for those in this thread discussing epic gem prices, please be careful with the -colour- of the epic gem. A Queen's Garnet (red) is going to be much, much, much more valuable than an Elven Peridot (green).

TL;DR: Blizzard could let JCers get epics and still keep them rare.
wouldnt it be simple to just turn the chimeras eye into a meta gem, with +134stat for jc's only?
Epic Gems are Bad for JCers:
No, not really. Due to the rarity of epic gems, the rare gem market will remain the primary source of gems for most players. Epic gems will have virtually no effect on the profession. JCing will remain the most profitable profession in the game.

Epic Gems are Bad for non-Blacksmiths:
This is true, but irrelevant until epic gems become MUCH more prevalent. I have no doubt that Blizzard will adjust things before we reach that point. Non-issue.

Epic Gems are Bad for PvPers:
This is probably true, assuming you are one of the very few PvPers that will reasonably contend for a gladiator title. Even then, the difference between epic and rare gems is so small that it probably doesn't really matter.

Epic Gems are Bad for Casuals:
Casuals have no use for epic gems, since they don't run heroic raids. As a result, epic gems will have no affect on them.

Epic Gems are Bad for Raiders:
Unless you are going for heroic world firsts, epic gems don't matter. At all. We are talking about less than half a percent difference in performance.


Really, when you get right down to it, if you show me someone that is upset by epic gems, I will show you someone who is bad at math. The almost non-existant stat difference between epic and rare gems is just not something that is worth worrying about.
...Only I think honor and justice points should be used to purchase the same geodes available to raiders. So still no guarantee of epic gems, keeping them rare, but giving casuals a form of "lottery".


I like this idea.

Really, when you get right down to it, if you show me someone that is upset by epic gems, I will show you someone who is bad at math. The almost non-existant stat difference between epic and rare gems is just not something that is worth worrying about.


True for now, when someone only has one or two epic gems slotted. But down the line when more characters get decked out, it will be WotLK gear score all over again - one will have to be decked out in epic gems to get into raids to get geodes to get epic gems.
True for now, when someone only has one or two epic gems slotted. But down the line when more characters get decked out, it will be WotLK gear score all over again - one will have to be decked out in epic gems to get into raids to get geodes to get epic gems.


I doubt it. ivl does not include gems and they dont change gear score much plus everyone uses ilvl.

Given the choice between a ilvl 385 player with full epic gems and a ilvl 390 player with zero epic gems given equal skill the ilvl 390>385.
12/01/2011 02:00 PMPosted by Mate
True for now, when someone only has one or two epic gems slotted. But down the line when more characters get decked out, it will be WotLK gear score all over again - one will have to be decked out in epic gems to get into raids to get geodes to get epic gems.


I doubt it. ivl does not include gems and they dont change gear score much plus everyone uses ilvl.

Given the choice between a ilvl 385 player with full epic gems and a ilvl 390 player with zero epic gems given equal skill the ilvl 390>385.


Can't debate it now, we'll talk in a couple of months :)
I'm fine with them being rare, thing that makes me rage is that the drop item from the bosses drops green quality gems. They are basically worthless to anyone that isn't a JC. Even then only 3 of the green quality gems still have a use, ie nightstone, Zephyrite and Jasper. That use is only to get a JC daily token sometimes, depending on the daily. If the raid drop was a random blue quality gem every time it would be worthwhile, but now its just a spit in the face, heres a chance to get a gem, but most of the time it won't be worth anything.

I know exaclty what my JC and toons need, more alicite. /end sarcasm

If you are raiding and still need green quality gems, then go mine for 10 min and I promise you'll have enough. You can get green qaulity gems from all the prospecting and now the raid too, so useful. This is just a way to get people to keep raiding DS well after its stopped being necessary. Guess your groups rogue will be happy someone wants to stay in the faceroll till MoP.

Based on some quick wowhead searching, it looks like a fully-geared 4.3 raider will be tricked out with 15 non-meta gem slots, plus any Blacksmith bonus. This will represent more than two full clears of Dragon Soul (@ 8 bosses, one gem per character per boss), since it looks like players won't be able to select their gem colour of choice.


Much more.

The gem you get from the geode is probably not epic. It's far more likely to be uncommon or superior.

Figure one to three epic gems per player per full clear. And, yes. You won't people able to select the color you get. So, figure that you get a red epic gem once per three raids, on average. So, on your own, that's 45 weeks of raiding for a full set of red gems.
Epic Gems are Bad for JCers:
No, not really. Due to the rarity of epic gems, the rare gem market will remain the primary source of gems for most players. Epic gems will have virtually no effect on the profession. JCing will remain the most profitable profession in the game.

I'll quote for emphasis: "epic gems will have virtually no effect on the profession." I consider it intrinsically problematic if a profession will, on the whole, end up treating its literal capstone like it doesn't exist.

Epic Gems are Bad for non-Blacksmiths:
This is true, but irrelevant until epic gems become MUCH more prevalent. I have no doubt that Blizzard will adjust things before we reach that point. Non-issue.

I agree that an adjustment is warranted. Still, given Blizzard's policy about not commenting on future changes until they're done, I think it's worthwhile pointing out that this is one necessary change.

[skipping points that amount to "the benefit is too small to care about"]
Really, when you get right down to it, if you show me someone that is upset by epic gems, I will show you someone who is bad at math. The almost non-existant stat difference between epic and rare gems is just not something that is worth worrying about.


On a personal note, please do not get into a slide-rule waving contest with me. It's unseemly, and I do not think you'd come out of it as well as you expect.

And now, let me reverse your point. If the benefit is too small to care about, then what is there to be gained from the obscene rarity, jewelcrafter "lockout", and casual/PvP exclusion? When the stats aren't "worth worrying about," then it's the symbol that matters.

Casuals are told that they shouldn't aspire to optimization, and they're not elite enough to matter. The epic barn-door was already opened with the gear, so locking them out of the gems doesn't make sense.

PvPers are told that they're an afterthought, and that "really" playing the game means raiding. (Ironic, given all the vitriol I see about PvE "nerfs to cater to PvPers")

Hardcore progression raiders are told that the game doesn't want them to really optimize. As a poster upthread says, it may take ~40 weeks to assemble one singular set of red gems. This just isn't fun for anybody.

TL;DR: If the stats matter, it's a problem. If the stats don't matter, then the symbol of the gems matters, and then it's a bigger problem.
Let me throw out a viewpoint that's been completely missed.

We basically went nearly a year with no new cuts. I went ahead and saved tokens, rather then use them. I didn't expect to have to wait so long for the epic cut patch, but so be it. I now have every cut. Great. Unfortunately, there is nothing to cut.

There are a great deal of jc's out there, all of them with a shiny new skillset and an inability to use them in any meaningful manner.

I have no desire to scream out in trade for 3 hours waiting for the one or two people who need cuts. Prospecting is fun. Cutting gems is fun. Playing AH wars is fun. (still plenty of other stuff to do that with of course)

This is just such a letdown. I do hope the reconsider.
Let me throw out a viewpoint that's been completely missed.

We basically went nearly a year with no new cuts. I went ahead and saved tokens, rather then use them. I didn't expect to have to wait so long for the epic cut patch, but so be it. I now have every cut. Great. Unfortunately, there is nothing to cut.

There are a great deal of jc's out there, all of them with a shiny new skillset and an inability to use them in any meaningful manner.

I have no desire to scream out in trade for 3 hours waiting for the one or two people who need cuts. Prospecting is fun. Cutting gems is fun. Playing AH wars is fun. (still plenty of other stuff to do that with of course)

This is just such a letdown. I do hope the reconsider.


I agree that not being able to utilize all the shiny new cuts is a let down. However, EVERY jewelcrafter had a ton of tokens saved up. And with the tendancy of players to stupidly work for "tips", the majority of the gold to be made from epic gem cuts would have been from the epic gems, not the cuts.

I much prefer the current system that is keeping the price of rare gems so inflated.
The amount of QQ over epic gems is amazing. Everyone needs to get over the fact that they should be able to get everything this game has to offer for free or with little effort. Blizzard made epic gems available to the masses in WOTLK and it basically turned all blue/green gems into vendor trash. There will always be the "its not fair" people coming out of the woodwork about this, well get over it because life's not fair and this game's not fair or balanced.

Epic gems are in the same line as heroic gear. If you put the time in and if you are skilled enough you'll get them. I think people are overlooking the fact that this is a reward for killing normal/heroic bosses. They shouldn't drop in LRF, the content is stupid easy and the rewards are almost as good or equal to heroic firelands gear and in some cases they are flat out better then heroic 391 gear.

In a month or so they'll be up on the AH and since hardly any classes use yellow gems I'm pretty sure there will be a !@#$ ton of them up there soon enough.


Unfortunately Holyfutz, not everyone raids. I wish I had the time to put into it..I just don't. I don't think the gems should be easy, or cheap....POSSIBLE would be nice (from conquest points, justice points, honor, high end transmutes...whatever).

I completely agree with you Crazeld...it is poor game design (Star Wars is getting more attractive by the day)
One should not have to raid to craft. End of story. Just like one should not have to craft to raid.

You don't have to raid to craft however. Epic gems are tradable. The new armorcrafting patterns from raid trash should be tradable, as well as the T13 orbs needed to craft them.

You also don't have to craft to raid. Your internet connection has more of an effect on your dps then the +80 stats you get from a profession. Oh...a crafted item or gem is BiS for your class? No problem, feel free to buy it off of the AH.

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