I will never go back to normal raiding again.

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12/07/2011 06:54 PMPosted by Callatham
For once, the debate is not about gear at all. It's entirely about content access. While I think the sense of entitlement here is reaching critical mass--it's not just what other people get. I don't want to see the final boss of a patch the first day it's released. I just don't. It disturbs me greatly knowing I can.


Entitlement? I pay fifteen bucks a month plus the 100$ or more for the expansions.

I'm a paying customer. I *am* freaking entitled.


Yes, you're entitled to playing the game and earning the chance to defeat bosses like everyone else.
Congratulations, and I wish you the best of luck in the rest of your World of Warcraft career! It makes me happy to see people with such renewed interest in this game, and it's nice to see other people within the community who are optimistic! =)
AWSOME post i agree guild drama siezes and we r all happy got to down 4 bosses all were fun
Oh i understood your post well enough, I understood the resentment you have for the hardcore raiders because it was so evident in the language you chose in your post.

I'm simply highlighting the fact that your post had so much venom in it, if that wasn't what you wanted to convey I highly recommend you edit the use of language in your posts.

Keep in mind that perceptions are easily made with the behaviors of some "hardcore" members in this topic. And also keep in mind that there is more to fun than challenge, and there are varying degrees of challenge that people find fun.

I don't get why everyone is trying to define such a broad discussion as fun and challenge.
I would love to have a similar tiered system for BGs too. It could be based off resilience or something, like the Ilvl thing, where it doesn't matter what you are wearing, but the max you have available in your bags/bank. I think it would work pretty well.

Back on topic, I did LfR multiple times last week. While I was mostly trying to get those early bosses that I missed, I still completed each raid that I got into for the most part. I was just so much fun, I didn't care about the loot. I mean, I did it like 3 or 4 times!
Also for you "hardcore" raiders, if you are decked out in full heroic FL gear then you are still in better gear than the people who end up with full LFR gear. If you don't believe me then look it up.

12/07/2011 06:54 PMPosted by Callatham
For once, the debate is not about gear at all. It's entirely about content access. While I think the sense of entitlement here is reaching critical mass--it's not just what other people get. I don't want to see the final boss of a patch the first day it's released. I just don't. It disturbs me greatly knowing I can.


Entitlement? I pay fifteen bucks a month plus the 100$ or more for the expansions.

I'm a paying customer. I *am* freaking entitled.


And that's exactly what it comes down to. We pay to play therefore we should get to play all of it.


Seriously, if people believe that challenge=fun then that's cool. Not everybody does. Let's take Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden for example. People play those games for different reasons. Some people like the story/characters, others like the gameplay, and some love the challenge. I've seen the fanatics of these series cry foul when the developers say that they are making the starting difficult easier for casuals to get into. They cry foul for nothing as the harder modes are still there, just as they always have been. Then only thing that ever changes is the starting difficulty. Dante Must Die mode and Master Ninja are still there for those who love dealing with enemies where one slip means an !@# whooping for the player.

And it's no different here. You "hardcore" crowd still have the harder modes that most of these people will never play. But to think they shouldn't experience that content is just plain absurd. In those examples I've listed above, even the fanatical don't think the people who can't handle the harder difficulties shouldn't be allowed to play them.

If this game affects your lives that much then perhaps you should walk away from the virtual world for a while and spend some more time in the real world, cause you seriously need to readjust.
12/07/2011 06:59 PMPosted by Stabbity

Yea. We need more game designers like you who just really get it. ;)

I'm curious. What all would need to change in, for example, Icecrown Citadel before it's LFR-capable?


You're asking for them to retune content which takes development time. Even Cataclysm content would have to be retuned because looking for raid uses a different difficulty than normal content. You might ask well, why don't they just use normal modes, but the answer is that they want the looking for raid tool to be consistent in functionality.
12/07/2011 07:05 PMPosted by Luph


Entitlement? I pay fifteen bucks a month plus the 100$ or more for the expansions.

I'm a paying customer. I *am* freaking entitled.


Yes, you're entitled to playing the game and earning the chance to defeat bosses like everyone else.

Blizzard has decided that the defeat is earned, not the chance. You are behind the times. Spend less time trolling this thread and more time progressing in the harder difficulties you prefer. Your elitism is not welcome.
Oh i understood your post well enough, I understood the resentment you have for the hardcore raiders because it was so evident in the language you chose in your post.

I'm simply highlighting the fact that your post had so much venom in it, if that wasn't what you wanted to convey I highly recommend you edit the use of language in your posts.

Keep in mind that perceptions are easily made with the behaviors of some "hardcore" members in this topic. And also keep in mind that there is more to fun than challenge, and there are varying degrees of challenge that people find fun.

I don't get why everyone is trying to define such a broad discussion as fun and challenge.


For a lot of players there is no fun without challenge.

The distinction is that simple. I know it isn't that way with everyone but for a lot of players it is that simple. Try and respect that will you?
I guess it's good for people who have absolutely no time whatsoever to do anything else on the game. But I do question its use even for such people... Can you genuinely say you'll enjoy joining such groups every week until the end of the expansion, doing the same fights requiring utterly and completely zero skill, co-ordination or preparation..? If you can, so much the better, and I'm happy for you... Simply doesn't make sense to me. For myself, gaming has always been about challenge. If I wanted to look at pretty things, I'd open some pictures on the internet. If I wanted lots of possessions, I'd get a better job. If I wanted an engaging, challenging way to spend my free time, I'd play a game such as Warcraft 1-3/WoW. Because they'd actually hold my attention, due largely to the fact that they weren't complete pushovers.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Hope it doesn't backfire a few weeks down the road when trolls/ninjas start outnumbering regular people in LFR (there's actually a reason guilds have structure etc, just in case you didn't know) and the challenge level drops from low to non-existent. Best of luck.
12/07/2011 06:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
This is absolutely the attitude and language that, in this community, needs to go sit in the corner for a while. If you can't stand the thought of there being multiple difficulty tiers of content -- into which we pour a lot of our development efforts -- to make raiding feasible for more than 2% of players, hit Heroic mode, turn on vent, and repeatedly remind your friends how good you are. I have no doubt they care. :)



I think I love you a little bit for this. ^_^
For a lot of players there is no fun without challenge.

The distinction is that simple. I know it isn't that way with everyone but for a lot of players it is that simple. Try and respect that will you?

What you find fun and challenging is different from person to person. You do not have specific statistics to back up your majority statement. Respect others as you wish to be respected.
I guess it's good for people who have absolutely no time whatsoever to do anything else on the game. But I do question its use even for such people... Can you genuinely say you'll enjoy joining such groups every week until the end of the expansion, doing the same fights requiring utterly and completely zero skill, co-ordination or preparation..? If you can, so much the better, and I'm happy for you... Simply doesn't make sense to me. For myself, gaming has always been about challenge. If I wanted to look at pretty things, I'd open some pictures on the internet. If I wanted lots of possessions, I'd get a better job. If I wanted an engaging, challenging way to spend my free time, I'd play a game such as Warcraft 1-3/WoW. Because they'd actually hold my attention, due largely to the fact that they weren't complete pushovers.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Hope it doesn't backfire a few weeks down the road when trolls/ninjas start outnumbering regular people in LFR (there's actually a reason guilds have structure etc, just in case you didn't know) and the challenge level drops from low to non-existent. Best of luck.


I didn't get it either for a while, but there are a ton of players that will have no problem farming DW on the LFR from now until MoP comes out. They find the repetitive nature of the Random Dungeon Finder and the Looking For Raid function almost thera-peutic. (stupid language censor.)

Guys like you and me will be bored with the LFR by mid december, but that's why we weren't the people the thing was designed for.
12/07/2011 07:09 PMPosted by Cutekisses
Can you genuinely say you'll enjoy joining such groups every week until the end of the expansion, doing the same fights requiring utterly and completely zero skill, co-ordination or preparation..?
Once you get full T-13 397, Why would you continue doing Normal mode?

Heroic/ Once you do the fights over and over and over and your whole guild is in full heroic DS gear, why do you continue to raid?

The answer to that, is the same answer to why I will do the LFR. The only difference is I don't have much of a choice. But some people choose to stop at normal and never see heroic.
As a medium skill raider, i was h 2/7 firelands and got 4/8 normal first day into DS normal mode, i love LFR. i love being able to queue as my main spec and OWN FACE as i top damage. i love seeing people who have never seen end game content before getting to see it. i love the chance at minor upgrades that will help me in DS normal and beyond. i love being able to take alts. i love being able to go when i wanna go and no set schedule. i love being the leader and helping people learn (gotten to do that once already!) i love how people dont get the same achivements as normal mode and not the same gear, so that its always clear that me with my normal mode or heroic gear that i did it on a higher difficulty setting, i love the chaos of 25 mans, cause i dont get to do that anymore in my guild, i love the fact that people get a chance to have a stepping stone to raiding, cause heroics never served that purpose in skill level.

I love that everyone is having fun with it

I love this feature
Yet more examples of many in this thread of people that just don't get it.

Different people play this game for different reasons and different people find different things about this game fun.

Just like the people in previous pages who were arguing about what meaningful content actually means, this post is just a reminder that people just don't understand how many different kinds of people actually play this game.

Consider for a moment that I actually find organizing raids and managing my guild fun. Consider that I find dungeon running via the LFR and RDF tool mundane because it's with people I don't know or care anything about. Consider that there's a sizable percentage of this population who play this game for the SOCIAL ASPECT of it, the epitome of that social aspect being team work.

The biggest reason why people have a problem with the LFR is because it only exacerbates problems that this community already has, people are not concerned about learning how to play with others or be a part of a team. There's a huge percentage of this playerbase that simply logs into this game and wants to immediately start playing it without needing to rely on a team and I get that, but there are a ton of players like me that play this game as opposed to other games just like it because we love the team aspect of it. If i wanted to crawl through a dungeon by myself or with followers that I didn't care about I would play Skyrim. I play this game for its team aspect and its team aspect alone. I have games I play for other reasons but I play WoW for the community and the teamwork challenge.

Do not try and bash players who have a problem with the LFR by trying to simply state that they are just mad their e-peens are hurt. It isn't that simple. The LFR just symbolizes more of a shift of World of Warcraft away from the heavy teamwork aspect that many of us bought it for in the first place. Recognize that, before you make your next post.

You want people to respect the reasons that you play this game for. Have the courtesy to do the same.


I dont get what the problem is then. If you dont like those kind of people, you dont have to use the LFR, you can get an organized guild OR server pug (i think those still happen) and enjoy the teamwork needed to overcome a higher difficulty raid then the LFR. I for one, respect those that like the harder challenge, but gotta say i love the LFR. Now if they would only add in the older content.


Yes, you're entitled to playing the game and earning the chance to defeat bosses like everyone else.

Blizzard has decided that the defeat is earned, not the chance. You are behind the times. Spend less time trolling this thread and more time progressing in the harder difficulties you prefer. Your elitism is not welcome.


It's a sad day when a difference of opinion on this forum is regarded as trolling and elitism.

I'm not even in the same camp as the person Zarhym quoted, and I've spent more time on this forum championing to have raid content be more widely accessible than anyone in this entire thread combined, but I'm a troll? Sigh. I don't even know why I come here anymore. There's no such thing as civil discussion.


Oh i understood your post well enough, I understood the resentment you have for the hardcore raiders because it was so evident in the language you chose in your post.

I'm simply highlighting the fact that your post had so much venom in it, if that wasn't what you wanted to convey I highly recommend you edit the use of language in your posts.


No you misunderstood.

You want venom, I could certainly give it to you but as yet I haven't done any such thing. You need to stop reading your own emotions into emotionless text.

The person I was replying to said that Heroic fights will kick your teeth in, I agreed with that, I also stated they were for people who enjoyed getting roadblocked by content.

The real challenge is finding the challenge and fun in whatever play style you prefer, if you want to see venom go back and read Ecos post.

You simply chose to read your own emotions into that reply just like you will with this one.


Then you are being completely inconsiderate of how you come off in your posts. You obviously don't have a problem with that, so we'll leave it at that.

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