Looking For Raid—Need Plus Updates

General Discussion
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What about casters that use spirit for hit that currently aren't getting a role bonus on things like signet of suturing?
That's always going to be the case - more people will always not-get a roll than will get it - that's kind of the point. You didn't have the piece taken from you, though - if you got the better roll, you'd still have got it - you just don't think you should have to roll against some of the other people.

Which is a fair complaint. Gods, I wish I hadn't had to roll against anyone else when the Spire of Scarlet Pain dropped.

But what you're describing is something that's always going to be a problem until EVERY items is made class specific. And, to be honest, I kind of want to make some of these decisions for myself.


My point is that those weapons are absolutely 100% useless for those classes and there is absolutely no reason to let them roll. I don't care if you want the freedom to be a jerk and roll on a weapon that doesn't give you anything. I can see your complaint about the spirit chestpiece or the paladin/shaman complaint about the offhand. But not weapons and trinkets.

Ideally this would have been done by changing the loot system instead of adding class restrictions, but supposedly we have to wait for MoP for that.


The 'freedom to be a jerk' is heavily ingrained in the game already - no one said it would be fair. I might wish that loot somehow corresponded to effort or ability, but it doesn't. And that's by design - loot could have been designed to be allocated based on accumulated points (for example) but Blizzard made the choice to go with random numbers.

But I don't really see the argument against out-of-spec rolling. Don't let people roll 'need' on a weapon their class can't use - that makes sense (and I say this as a mage, which means I can't use MOST of them)... but if they can use it, even if it's less than ideal, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to roll.
Well done, and quite quickly might I add! I'm glad that this has been done, honestly. Now if only we could get a way to prevent someone from winning two items at once!




Could this mean that you're looking for ways to ensure no one can win two items at once!? *starts to make a happy face*


This is something we know happens, and we definitely want to find a way to address it so it doesn't happen.


The good thing about all these changes is that you are starting to make a system that many players wanted for so many years: "smart drops"

It is really frustrating go into a raid week after week and sometimes a boss drop only garbage for that group, no upgrade for anyone whatsoever, while there is 2 or 3 drops that it has and never drop.

I'm not saying to give an upgrade on every raid, but the system needs something more "smart" than the frustrating random that is not random at all because of the different drop chances for each item.

I hope the wow evolve to a less punishing system that don't make me hate a boss because I did him 25 times and the shoulder dropped just 2 (and I lost for other people).
these changes should have happened to the role-roll bonus. those items can still be used, they just shouldn't have gotten a bonus for rolling on it.
12/13/2011 02:03 PMPosted by Sensations
Why can't shamans and paladins need on the offhand? The off hand is better than the shield, and a shield does nothing for paladins and shamans that makes it required to use. That's like telling a mage or warlock, "You can use swords so we're not going to let you roll on the daggers." Or telling a priest, "You can use daggers with an offhand so we're not going to let you roll on a staff."

This. I'm just glad that you can still wield everything on reg mode. Although our priest got the ultrax drop last night, I'm pretty sure I'm next in link to get it :\

It's incredibly stupid, though. I agree.
12/14/2011 03:23 AMPosted by Tangletongue
But I don't really see the argument against out-of-spec rolling. Don't let people roll 'need' on a weapon their class can't use - that makes sense (and I say this as a mage, which means I can't use MOST of them)... but if they can use it, even if it's less than ideal, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to roll.
I don't want the enhance shaman rolling on my shoulders, and I won't wait an ele shaman rolling on agility trinkets. Sound fair? I don't care if it's for offspec. If DPS paladins, death knighs, and warriors can't roll on plate "tanking" gear, since it's out of their roll for that particular fight, even if it's for an "offspec," why should enhancement shamans be able to roll (and win) on intellect mail or feral druids rolling 199 on intellect leather? If certain classes can't roll for offspecs and receive the bonus, no classes should.
I know there are some programming limitations to this, but it's certainly silly.
Something does need to change in terms of multiple drops of the same item, as well people winning multiple items. I really shouldn't have won the 2x Kiril, Fury of Beasts that dropped today. (Before anyone has a go at me, I did give away the other one that I didn't need to the next highest roller)
The system still allows casters like boomkins/ele shaman to roll need on agility trinkets/rings/weapons and get a loot roll bonus. I've seen several of said casters actually win these items, and I think that is a sign of a very broken loot system.

FIX THIS.


Give them time and they will, but this is one of the problems that may have to wait until MoP because the problem here is the loot system can not discern whether the Shaman is Elemental or Enhancement.

If it were possible to make the loot system differentiate in this manner they wouldn't need the class restrictions on items. So logically this tells me it's a more complicated change than they want to release in a hotfix or hastily done patch. This is something that requires a much more thorough approach with lots of testing to ensure it works properly and within expected parameters.

Give them time and they'll work it out though. They have clearly expressed concern over making it better for everyone and have made some vast improvements in a very short time already. It will get there, but they need our patience and support to do it well and in a manner that is fair and balanced.

Edit: Because smart phones have the most stupid auto correct features.
A system needs to be developed in order to only give loot to certain roles in a LFR raid.

Example:
Ret Paladins should not be able to need on any Prot tanking gear or holy gear, because they are set as a DPS.



(I lost a holy shield, mace, and trinket to a ret pally in one LFR)
Any chance you could scrap this entirely, and actually fix the new Need+ system logic instead? This should have never been implemented by placing restrictions on the items. The only change that was necessary was who could click the need button, and from what I've seen, that's still not fixed (how hard is it to create a list per spec (for example, for druid, feral, resto, boomkin and associate the types of gear that each spec can roll on (boomkin/resto shouldn't get a roll bonus on agi gear, mage/warlock's shouldn't be rolling on spirit gear, etc.)) There are 10 classes with 3 specs each, that's 30 combinations, it's not like it's 100's of combinations).

I know this was a band-aid, but I'd rather wait another week and get a proper fix than a band aid.
I understand and agree with most of the item restrictions, but the offhand one baffles me.

My Elemental Shaman won the Ledger of Revolting Rituals and has been using it just fine. It benefits me just as much as a Priest or Druid, I don't understand why it should be offlimits.

Prior to that, I was still using an offhand. Shields are sorta hard to come by and they're no better for Shamans and Paladins than offhands are for Priests and Druids. Unlike the other items on the list, I can actually benefit quite well from the offhand that's itemized perfectly (as opposed to, say,a DK rolling on No'kaled, which I saw in my LFR group).

Any chance you can reconsider the offhand? The only reason I can see for the restriction is that Shaman and Paladins can use shields and Druids and Priests can't, but, well, that's something that's been going on since Vanilla, but Shaman and Paladins have never really been pigeonholed into only using shields (apart from when you could enchant shields but not offhands, but that was an enchanting issue more than a gear issue).

Also, the offhand looks really really cool =(
You missed these:

Vagaries of Time
Hand of Morchok
Horrifying Horn Arbalest
Experimental Specimen Slicer
Spire of Coagulated Globules
Scalpel of Unrelenting Agony
Lightning Rod
Morningstar of Heroic Will
Ataraxis, Cudgel of the Warmaster
Visage of the Destroyer
Dragonfire Orb

At least, you missed them if you really were trying to class out all weapons/trinkets/accessories


I don't think those ones drop in LFR (I could be wrong on that). I know DW DK's aren't thrilled they can't get a 1 hander unless they do normal DS (something about how the only weapon for them they'd be alloted to roll on drops off Morchock and doesn't drop in LFR).
My question is about loot balance.

There is a bow that only Hunter's can loot, but Rogues could wield it too as their ranged slot.

There is a one handed axe that only Rogues and Shaman are allowed to loot, I thought Hunters could wield axes too.

There are several daggers that are not marked for either Hunter or Druid.

Also, restricting Int based trinkets and rings that have spirit on it from warlock and Mages. I know that Spirit has a small effect on these toons, but if the item has a large Int jump for them I would equip them until a suitable replacement could be found.

I know that the current changes are new and may still be looked at with more scrutiny in the near future. these are just the things that I see and felt I should point them out.
i have to say, that i do like the LFR, being able to drop each boss easily, having my raiders learn the fight somewhat before our raid and being able to fill in holes in my itemization is really nice, all of these complaints about loot boggle my mind tho, they have fixed a great deal of the ninja problems with this latest update, and ppl still are upset about loosing a roll on a item, the fact is, you lost the roll, its not blizzards job to make sure you win rolls, rng is rng, if i loose a roll to someone in a random i honestly dont even look at who won it, cause i lost, i dont care, i hope i roll higher next time. ppl need to calm the hell down about loot
My question is about loot balance.

There is a bow that only Hunter's can loot, but Rogues could wield it too as their ranged slot.

There is a one handed axe that only Rogues and Shaman are allowed to loot, I thought Hunters could wield axes too.

There are several daggers that are not marked for either Hunter or Druid.

Also, restricting Int based trinkets and rings that have spirit on it from warlock and Mages. I know that Spirit has a small effect on these toons, but if the item has a large Int jump for them I would equip them until a suitable replacement could be found.

I know that the current changes are new and may still be looked at with more scrutiny in the near future. these are just the things that I see and felt I should point them out.


i dont agree with your comments, heres why, no hunter who is min/maxing should use 1handers, this is because there is no good 1 hand enchant for hunters, Every high end raiding hunter will use a 2hander because of the 2hand enchant for agility, Rogues that use bows keep themselves from being able to aoe, and any mage or lock that has spirit anywhere on their toon is doing it VERY wrong, its not that these classes have a small effect from it, its that they have NO combat effect from it, spirit to a mage only gives Out of combat regen.... so they get to drink less... yay? im sorry, if i where a healer and a mage rolled and won a spirit trinket i would be quite upset about it
There is a bow that only Hunter's can loot, but Rogues could wield it too as their ranged slot.

There is a one handed axe that only Rogues and Shaman are allowed to loot, I thought Hunters could wield axes too.


Rogues don't want bow's. FoK only works off of thrown weapons.

Hunters want 2 handers this xpac; the only viable enchant this xpac for hunters is a +130 agility chant to 2 handers.
12/13/2011 01:40 PMPosted by Nethaera
As a part of the on-going evaluation of Looking For Raid and the loot system, we have recently implemented a change to the Looking For Raid Need Plus system. Weapons, trinkets, rings, neck pieces, shields, offhand items, and the Robe of Glowing Stone are now class-restricted to their intended users. With the speed at which a Raid Finder group moves through a zone, we’ve found that it makes it challenging for players to evaluate loot decisions – by class restricting these items, we hope that the natural behavior will have a more positive set of results for everyone involved. This change will not apply to normal or heroic raid or dungeon loot rules.

This is a huge step forward with the LFR Need Plus system. . . thanks for the update Nethaera.

Is there any news on expanding this to the toons specs, next? For instance, if I'm in tanking on my feral druid and an item with intellect drops, I should be able to need it for my off-spec (boomkin), but not get the Need Plus added to my role.
Any chance you could scrap this entirely, and actually fix the new Need+ system logic instead? This should have never been implemented by placing restrictions on the items. The only change that was necessary was who could click the need button, and from what I've seen, that's still not fixed (how hard is it to create a list per spec (for example, for druid, feral, resto, boomkin and associate the types of gear that each spec can roll on (boomkin/resto shouldn't get a roll bonus on agi gear, mage/warlock's shouldn't be rolling on spirit gear, etc.)) There are 10 classes with 3 specs each, that's 30 combinations, it's not like it's 100's of combinations).

I know this was a band-aid, but I'd rather wait another week and get a proper fix than a band aid.


i dont know how much you know about computer programming, but the hard part isnt knowing what items each class would use, the hard part is making a system that recognizes specs, atm, there is no way for the roll system to know what spec your class is, and that is really what they are working to improve on, but they have said that is quite difficult, i myself, who knows nothing about computer programming, will trust the ppl who make pretty games show up on my screen by just using numbers and letters, rather than sit back and say, "what? you dont know how to do that? thats soo easy, clearly you need to go back that introduction to game programming course and read that chapter on 'make a program that can detect class spec' that exists..."
My question is about loot balance.

There is a bow that only Hunter's can loot, but Rogues could wield it too as their ranged slot.

There is a one handed axe that only Rogues and Shaman are allowed to loot, I thought Hunters could wield axes too.

There are several daggers that are not marked for either Hunter or Druid.

Also, restricting Int based trinkets and rings that have spirit on it from warlock and Mages. I know that Spirit has a small effect on these toons, but if the item has a large Int jump for them I would equip them until a suitable replacement could be found.

I know that the current changes are new and may still be looked at with more scrutiny in the near future. these are just the things that I see and felt I should point them out.


As others have said, that's all gear that's suboptimal.

Hunters don't want axes and Rogues don't want bows.

Agility daggers are pretty much only used by Rogues. Ferals prefer two handers and daggers are too fast for Enhance.

The whole spirit debate has been going on since the beginning of Cataclysm, but the point is that Spirit has zero benefit for Mages and Warlocks and they shouldn't wear it, especially when taking it means that they're screwing over a Priest, Druid, or Shaman caster.

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