Deathwing should not have been in LFR

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And that would be great. But it also takes away the ability for use to work as a team and as a guild.


That made no sense in the context of the post you quoted...
I used to like Attunements, and was really excited when i finished my Kara attunements.

Was weeks later that enough of my friends had the attunement as well for us to actually do Kara, but other then it being a choir at the time, in hindsight I enjoyed it and wouldn't ignore content because it had an attunement.


I think that with the LFR, attunements need to make a comeback. You want to see the content? You're going to see all the content, not just whatever drops the shiniest purples at the time.

Make em' BoA so guilds don't have to run old raids for random alts every tier and dial down the complexity from the BT/TK lines to something more like Kara and you're golden.
This is where you missed the rest of what we were talking about and made a tool of yourself. We were talking about something Galashin proposed as a change to the system. Not how the system stands now.

We enjoy the challenge of the raid. I dont see us every killing DW on heroic and thats cool.
Okay. Well, thanks for pointing that out all the same. I don't really feel foolish >.>

I think I may have hit that point in my above post as well.

All the same, i am sensing a little hostility here so I'm gonna leave you guys to it then. have fun.
I think that with the LFR, attunements need to make a comeback. You want to see the content? You're going to see all the content, not just whatever drops the shiniest purples at the time
this does sound good, but i actually see more complaints than praises coming from that if it happened exactly how it did before.

It would really take a long time for a guild to recover if they lose a guy (potentially).

That's my .02

Later.
12/19/2011 10:49 PMPosted by Milsa
hat the reward for accepting challenging content should be more content
You may have discredited me as a troll (Apparently disagreeing = troll)


I pointed out specifics: that you encourage ignoring a situation over discussing how to fix it, your presumably willful overly narrow reading of the term "force," and your ridiculous implied analogy to heinous real world violence. And now, I further point to the fact that you've implied all I said was "he doesn't agree with me, so he's a troll."

You implicitly compared the use of "force" in "top end guilds are forced to run LFR for extra gear" to @!!%, and now you're claiming it wasn't a trolling comment?


Not sure what you mean by this. A guild progressing through normal modes would still work as a team as they progressed through normal modes any given week. After they were done raiding for the week, individual players (or groups) would be free to use LFR to finish off what the guild didn't yet do. Restricted, of course, by the requirement to pull 50-67% of their weight, or be kicked out of the run. The only loss of teamwork would be if the guild were to cut a raid night short, in order to finish via LFR--in which case, the guild as a group is going into LFR, and could still make the run smoother by using teamwork (despite it not being required).


Yeah, I see what your saying here. Problem with that is our last raid day is on monday. So unless we changed our planned raid days (and these are set so we can raid as a guild) just so we could find time to get into the LFR.


Nothing's going to be perfect.

Returning to the model of not encouraging players to kill the same bosses a gazillion times a week would be good.

Adding some accountability to LFR, by means of reasonable, minimal, pull-a-fraction-of-your-weight benchmarks would be good. (The former mostly solving the created problem of hardcore raiders inflating the benchmarks.)

Allowing guilds to progress through normal at their own pace, without penalizing them with respect to LFR (similar to how guilds can progress through heroic, without penalties with respect to normal) would be good. (This also requires introducing similar LFR/normal restrictions to match existing normal/heroic restrictions, so as to avoid skipping past bosses you can't kill in normal.)

Rewarding successful completion of voluntary, challenging content with more content, instead of cosmetic effects or item-levels-for-the-sake-of-item-levels would be good. I just don't see a way to pull this one off at this point.
You implicitly compared the use of "force" in "top end guilds are forced to run LFR for extra gear" to @!!%, and now you're claiming it wasn't a trolling comment?
That last part was censored so I can only assume what you mean.

I'll try to break down my post so you can see my logic behind my words. I apologize if you misunderstood and I came off as a "Troll".
I don't get how some people will moan about something and say it is severely flawed.

Then still continue to use t over and over again while trying to change it to suit their own needs?
By this I mean, People seem to complain about things such as the LFD and yet continue to use it. I know we are talking about the LFR but I am using the LFD as an example.

Anyways, They have the ability to make all their gripes go away, yet they still queue and complain. i understand that some people make the game suck for others, but if a person really really hates something like the LFD, they can bypass by forming their own group and having a stellar makeup.

That was in response to a particular post that I should have quoted.
12/19/2011 10:29 PMPosted by Milsa
just leave the LFR alone if you don't like it. All this talk about 'being forced" makes me think that no one knows what the heck being forced truly feels like.
I know what people mean when they say 'forced". I stand by what I said and I still feel that people "pressure themselves" into doing this.

Same thing with Wrath. People were "forced' to re-run content for gear. i kinda sorta get that. Some people literally HAD to keep raiding or get peered out of a group. however, that isn't the kind of group I would want to be a part of. At some point you need to decide what type of game you want to play and roll with it. if you are okay with being pressured by your peers in your team to raid or GTFO then that is your choice.

I dunno, maybe 100% of all players required raiding like mad back then. if so, then I stand corrected. there wasn't ever a choice.

12/19/2011 10:29 PMPosted by Milsa
Pro Tip- It usually involves threats to your life.
I also stand by this. yes, it is extreme and I apologize for using it. Extremes rarely help an argument so that is my error. however, I still feel like people are abusing the term "forced". Call me a grammar !@#$ (albeit a horrible one lol) but it just doesn't sit with me when people make a choice of their own free will then complain about being forced when there is a clear option to bypass what they hate.

I pointed out specifics: that you encourage ignoring a situation over discussing how to fix it, your presumably willful overly narrow reading of the term "force," and your ridiculous implied analogy to heinous real world violence. And now, I further point to the fact that you've implied all I said was "he doesn't agree with me, so he's a troll."
I do see your point. i may have come off as a bit of a Troll. I kinda loiter the forums a lot so I guess I assumed that people just knew where I was coming from.

I joined this convo a bit late but I started off actually responding to a certain post. That is my fault for not using the quote button.
You can't use the excuse to lock out any portions of an LFR raid by thinking you can gear through it in 2 weeks. RNG ontop of RNG leads alot of those LFR runners with 1 piece of gear a week if their lucky. Yes, some are luckier than others, but in MOST cases, they aren't gearing completely in a matter of a few weeks. As I said, LFR is nothing but RNG ontop of RNG. This will continue to be and will continue to have people that don't raid normals or heroics farming their gear just as we farm our gear week in and week out through normal or heroics, depending on what your choice is.

It's really no different, honestly it isn't. I'd go as far to say that it's going to be ALOT rougher for LFR only raiders to completely gear themselves than the normal/heroic counterparts. I don't quite understand that, OMG DW IS DEAD IN LFR when MANY guilds have already killed him the 1st WEEK (an entire week prior to it being available in LFR).

I raid normals and about to start heroics. I also do LFR with some RL friends that don't care for the guild raid model of gameplay. It's enjoyable, it's fun, and isn't too much of a headache. It shouldn't be a headache. 25 random people, no communication, many without the knowledgeset necessary to be a successful raider, yet still able to complete it without punching walls. It has to be that way, will always be that way, otherwise the tool itself is simply useless.

'Special' Snowflakes are 'Special' snowflakes and lose sight of what enjoying this game really is. It doesn't matter if person B killed him in LFR and I killed him in Normal. I have more of a sense of accomplishment, because it is slightly tougher, not exactly difficult, but easy enough with 10 of us that are competant enough to execute mechanics.

The days of dying on the same boss week in and week out for months is over, and coming from a long time raider since Vanilla, I'm glad it's that way. I'll be honest, my wife is too, but she's happy killing bores in Elwynn Forest.

Overall, it's simple.

It should NOT matter that they can kill DW in LFR blindfolded.

LFR should NOT have certain bosses locked out for any length of time, it's not it's intent.

LFR should NOT share the lockout with normal/heroic lockouts. It's a completely seperate entity. Raiders help string along those LFR's alot of times, leading them, explaining things. There's a method there that I think alot of people don't really think about, and that's spreading the know how from those with experience. (Excluding your basement dwelling nerd ragers after the 1st wipe or at the people doing less than 20k dps).

Your not special, never have been, never will be. There's over 10 million of us in the World of Warcraft, not just YOU.

Clean the community, share your experience, teach those that don't know or understand. Enjoy the game, be helpful and just do what MAKES you enjoy it, not what others are able to do.


I couldn't have said it better myself honestly. I come from raiding all the way back to vanilla and I love LFR.

I don't understand how anyone can say that they don't feel epic because of LFR.
You should take pride in knowing you were able to down it in heroic mode. It's a huge accomplishment. Normal doesn't really mean much now days. I never have really taken anyone seriously that complains about normal modes and losing their accomplishment because the fact is you're just average. To take down a heroic mode you have to excel and you have to work your butt off to do it. I love LFR because I work nights and it's not possible to put a good pug together despite what some of those above might lead you to believe together. I have a personal life. I don't want to be tied down I don't want to have to worry about letting my guild down. I can do it when it's convenient for me.

First and foremost this is a game, and blizzard is a company. They want money and we want to have fun. It will always be in blizzards best interest to build around the casuals because they are the biggest player base.
my two cents: players that feel like their in game deeds are less rewarding because someone else has accomplished the same deed, or lesser version of said deed, should take a look in the mirror and reassess what is important in life.

this idea that killing deathwing in normal or heroic is less epic because 25 random players killed him in looking for raid is nonsense. by design, every player in the world of warcraft is meant to feel like a hero, this is how mmo's work. if you can't deal with that concept you are playing the wrong game.
I love LFR because I work nights and it's not possible to put a good pug together despite what some of those above might lead you to believe together. I have a personal life. I don't want to be tied down I don't want to have to worry about letting my guild down. I can do it when it's convenient for me.

First and foremost this is a game, and blizzard is a company. They want money and we want to have fun. It will always be in blizzards best interest to build around the casuals because they are the biggest player base.


Oh yes, the joys of working nights. I'm in the same boat as you for the most part. I did however chose to move this toon to an oceanic server so I can still raid with a tight nit group. It's just more enjoyable by being sociable with the same people week in and week out as we progress together.

Besides, I was born a night owl, I'll die a night owl. Get some!

Oh yes, the joys of working nights. I'm in the same boat as you for the most part. I did however chose to move this toon to an oceanic server so I can still raid with a tight nit group. It's just more enjoyable by being sociable with the same people week in and week out as we progress together.

Besides, I was born a night owl, I'll die a night owl. Get some!


I haven't been that active in Cata I didn't enjoy wiping in LFD when it first came out because they decided everyone needed to be epic. Don't get me wrong the heroics were amazing when you had 4 other people that you personally knew, but by yourself it was like nails on a chalkboard

Yeah though I get home around 12:15 by that time everyone is usually finished raiding, and the night guilds I have found are okay. They are nothing amazing if you want a really good guild you usually have to have a 7-11 raiding shift from what I've seen.

Another thing I really love about LFR, no guild drama, no more caring about noobs, no more favorites, and no more caring the gm's fail flavor of the week. I cannot count how many times I was in a guild where the gm's gf/wife/bf/w/e wiped the raid and got no convenience.
I want to chime in and say that I agree wholeheartedly with Galashin. Making LFR a part of normal/heroic mode gearing was a bad idea. This patch is 3 weeks old, and I've killed Deathwing 7 times already - and I only have 3 toons at 85. If there was a decision made to go back on the "we don't want you to run the same content multiple times per week because that leads to burnout" philosophy, that reversal needs to be communicated to the players. And if the philosophy remains in place, then LFR shouldn't be a part of normal/heroic mode gearing & progression.

3.2 was really the patch that ruined the game (if you'll forgive the obvious hyperbole). Forget the fact that ToC was a terrible raid. With the addition of the 5-man that dropped Naxx-10 level epics on normal mode and Ulduar-10 level epics on heroic, Blizzard killed the idea of content progression and inaugurated WoW 2: The Search for More Gearscore. The previous model had its issues - attuning an alt or new recruit was an arduous process, and lots of development time was spent on places like BT and Sunwell which very few people got to see. But what was lost in the rush to get the entire player base geared for each new raid as soon as it's released is the idea that non-cutting-edge raid instances had relevance to those players who hadn't completed them yet.

In BC, if you wanted to do (post attunement removal) Hyjal, you did 5mans, then Kara, then you did Gruul, then Loot Reaver & SSC, and then you had gear for it. In Cata, if you wanted to do Firelands, you ran 5mans a few times for badges & 353 epics, did dailies for a bit for 365 epics, and then you had gear for it. All sense of content progression vanished. And when a tier only consists of 7 or 8 bosses, and none of the previous tiers have any relevance whatsoever because you get better gear running 5mans, there's not going to be enough content to keep the player base happy. Yes, everyone sees the content you spent all the time & money developing, but they see it all the first month you release it, and then they have to wait 5+ months for more.

I'd be willing to accept the epithet of "elitist," since I think people should actually pull their weight in the group content they run (sub-10k in a 5man with a 15% damage buff? Really?). So feel free to attack my position from that direction. But I feel that the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of accessibility. Older tiers of content should not become immediately irrelevant on patch day. Having all the content defeatable by anyone a week after the patch releases is too much. Having two straight tiers of less than 10 bosses each is too little.

Releasing higher ilvl badge gear and a new tier of 5mans at the last content patch of the expansion (a la Quel'danas) is a good thing. Give people an added boost then. Not a ladder every content patch. Stacking raid buffs that make content easier over time (a la ICC) is a good thing. Sometimes, it just takes a bit of a buff to finally get that kill. But get rid of LFR. Throwing 25 random strangers together at top-tier content on release day, having the bosses just fall over if a third of them manage to roll their faces across their keyboards, and making this a gear path for normal and heroic-mode raiders? Not my idea of fun.
12/19/2011 11:42 PMPosted by Quichy
Older tiers of content should not become immediately irrelevant on patch day.

Are you going to be doing that older content? No? Then don't worry about the people behind you.

Arguments to force players to see old content are just ways of ensuring they never catch up to newer content.
Yes I agree Deathwing shouldn't have been in LFR because now we got idiots who makes threads and says that this game is now too easy and that they've beaten it already and they got nothing to do.


3.3 was really the patch that ruined the game (if you'll forgive the obvious hyperbole). Forget the fact that ToC was a terrible raid. With the addition of the 5-man that dropped Naxx-10 level epics on normal mode and Ulduar-10 level epics on heroic,

I'm not sure if you are aware, but Naxx 10-25 was a entire joke to the entire community. What they did was make people that had never been able to raid actually be able to raid. It also gave the chance for people that had alts to change their mains around.

In BC, if you wanted to do (post attunement removal) Hyjal, you did 5mans, then Kara, then you did Gruul, then Loot Reaver & SSC, and then you had gear for it.

No you didn't if you were able to prove yourself to a guild they would gear you. I remember pulling tanks from heroic gear into our TK runs because we were lacking of tanks. The whole point of attunement is insane. You know how annoying it was dragging new recruits back through an instance you already finished two 2 months ago? That's not my definition of fun.

I'd be willing to accept the epithet of "elitist," since I think people should actually pull their weight in the group content they run (sub-10k in a 5man with a 15% damage buff? Really?). So feel free to attack my position from that direction. But I feel that the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of accessibility. Older tiers of content should not become immediately irrelevant on patch day. Having two straight tiers of less than 10 bosses each is too little.

News flash you don't need complainant people to do normals you never did. We usually carried between 10-5 below average people in our normal 25 mans. We had a specific 10 man hard mode team that we actually worked our butts off for. What everyone definition of irrelevant is subjective. Because I feel like LFR is fun, but if I want a challenge then I'm going to be doing hard modes. That's what they are there for the elites. Everything else is well everyone else.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but Naxx 10-25 was a entire joke to the entire community. What they did was make people that had never been able to raid actually be able to raid. It also gave the chance for people that had alts to change their mains around.

I remember that Naxx was a faceroll. I don't see what that has to do with my point that ToC is when Gearscore metastasized, and a contributing factor was the introduction of a 5man that institutionalized the "gear resets every patch" idea.

No you didn't if you were able to prove yourself to a guild they would gear you. I remember pulling tanks from heroic gear into our TK runs because we were lacking of tanks. The whole point of attunement is insane. You know how annoying it was dragging new recruits back through an instance you already finished two 2 months ago? That's not my definition of fun.

My experience in BC was somewhat behind the progression curve - the guild I was in at the time wasn't large enough to make the transition from 10 to 25mans for quite some time, so I was speaking more from the as-a-guild perspective, not the individual-player-apping-to-a-new-guild-that-is-more-progressed one. I'm not advocating for a return to attunements, as I agree they were awful.


Because I feel like LFR is fun, but if I want a challenge then I'm going to be doing hard modes. That's what they are there for the elites. Everything else is well everyone else.

The problem I have with LFR is that it's a "required" (in that it's there and if you don't use it, you're handicapping yourself and your raid) path to gearing for normal and heroic-mode raiders. Doing the same content over and over is a good way to burn out on that content. This was already an issue with the idea of heroic modes (you beat this boss once, now do it again, only he's harder), but now serious raiders are clearing the content twice a week, which is something that not 15 months ago, Blizzard was saying they didn't want to have happen.

For those who use LFR as a "see the content" tool, having it be so easy removes any sense of accomplishment for having done it, and leaves them pining for new content for months on end, which is not a good way to keep subscribers. I'm arguing that never having gotten to kill (for example) Illidan is better than killing Deathwing 1 week after he is released - in the first instance, there's content you haven't seen for you to work towards. In the second, well, maybe Diablo III will come out soon.
Wait... is this the Finlay from Vashj-US?

Sorry guys, and Sorry snakeman, but yalls getting trolled. Nothing of what Finlay says should be taken seriously. He is merely stirring the pot.

Take it from someone who watched his poor trolling in trade.
12/19/2011 07:58 PMPosted by Samfisher



Hmmm...

I don't think this is right. Roadblocks usually get me to play other games.


Then you are the exception to the carrot-on-the-stick model.

Grats.


He's not the exception. He is the same as most casuals and represent a majority of the population in this game.

I feel the same way about roadblocks. Give me accessible content that is fun and still challenging (reasonably challenging). Others can bang their heads against normals/heroics. I hope they have fun with their content.
As someone who has 9 85's the introduction of LFR has been a great thing. To be honest though half of my characters after the first kill I am not even bothering with downing him anymore.

LFR for me is the tool / key for getting gear which will help me down DS on normal and one day hopefully heroic. In the small guild I am in which has around 12-15 active players/raiders LFR has been a godsend. Sure we are still stuck on warmaster and I guess we will be with Xmas around the corner be stuck there for at least another week or so but it allows everyone the oppurtunity (for once) to be able to actually down the end game content.

You get lots of people here saying how its dumbed it down and made the game boring. Im still not sure why but until 4.3 came out our guild had yet to even down Rag (yeah noobs and all) and I can tell you now constant wipes doesnt make the game any more fun.

For all those who say its the end of the game and yeah downed DW this game is boring. How is it any different to the past for you, all the elitists who downed Rag in normal, why the hate and the I dont want heroic cause its just the same gear with more stats. There really is no difference at all.

I do agree that perhaps Heroic mode could have had an optional extra kinda like BOT did? Then again we never experienced that either ;)

If anything LFR should have been tweaker and made harder, which then wouldnt have allowed for the afker's and the hit bots which are emerging. And fair enuff if you die at the start of the fight well what to do but when people are alive at the end of the fight and doing like sub 10k dps.. they really shouldnt be getting loot.

LFR enrage timers in accordance to their difficulty should have been implemented as opposed to the pretty much never hit enrage.

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