Mastery or Haste for Demonology?

Warlock
Currently I'm playing Affliction/Destro and only doing PvE, but a few friends want me to make an Affliction PvP spec and play with them in arenas.

That being said I will only have one talent tree for raiding, and I figured Demonology would be best for single target/aoe situations.

I've been unable to find a clear decision as to whether or not Haste or Mastery is superior for Demonology as of late.

I'm not a hardcore enough raider to go through messing around with Sims, so I'd really appreciate it if someone could just take a look at the gear I have currently and make an easy decision for me. :P

Also should I be using Incinerate or Shadow Bolt as my filler?

Thanks.
incinerate as the filler, mastery>haste
Thanks, looking for more opinions though.

I see several top Demo locks using haste.
I am trying to figure out how to improve my DPS as a demo lock. I won't change specs. I just swapped some mastery to up my haste and I think it will help because a lot of the raid stuff is fast burst DPS. Please take a look at my gemming etc and spec if you have any advice it is appreciated.
I think that getting the 17% to hit, then 15.56% haste, then stack mastery seems best at the moment. I am filling in with incenerate and glyphed for incenerate and immolate. seems to keep it simple. I am doing single raid target self buffed around 26K (no pots or food) with fel hound. On 3 target raid dummy it is about 36k, at least for a couple minutes then it drops quite a bit to level out around 29k.
Most demo locks that run haste are doing that because they're actually running two specs; it's not a huge loss to do so, and it's certainly a lot less of a difference than running super mastery-heavy affliction or destruction.

That said, if you're only playing Demo I much prefer mastery. Aside from being the generally better option by maybe a few hundred dps, having on-demand burst is generally far more valuable than more even dps, all else being equal. For stuff like Spine and Madness (Meta during cataclysm? /enable godmode), mastery is more useful by a landslide.
Thanks for the constructive posts.
i use shadow bolt as a filler, and i do more dps with it than Incinrate. only use incrinrate when molten core procs. than of course Soul fire when target is <25%
I am trying to figure out how to improve my DPS as a demo lock. I won't change specs. I just swapped some mastery to up my haste and I think it will help because a lot of the raid stuff is fast burst DPS. Please take a look at my gemming etc and spec if you have any advice it is appreciated.
I think that getting the 17% to hit, then 15.56% haste, then stack mastery seems best at the moment. I am filling in with incenerate and glyphed for incenerate and immolate. seems to keep it simple. I am doing single raid target self buffed around 26K (no pots or food) with fel hound. On 3 target raid dummy it is about 36k, at least for a couple minutes then it drops quite a bit to level out around 29k.


Part of your dps issue is your gemming. (although your numbers are pretty solid dps wise, but could be better yet)

Any gem slot that has less than +20 intellect you should Gem for Intel with either Brilliant Inferno Ruby's or Brilliant Queen's Garnets... you have a lot of +20/20 gems with only a +10 intel bonus meaning you're losing out on 10 intellect each time you gem.

The only enchant that i question is the haste on the wrist, you should go for the +50 intellect on it, as Intellect is > Haste in any situation.

The stat priorities for us are Intellect > Hit to cap > Mastery > Haste.
You will still do good with a haste build but demonology is all about how much damage you can do during your Meta. It's more burst than sustained, haste will make it more sustain but it will lower your damage a bit overall, as you're not putting out nearly as much damage under Meta that you could be via a haste build.
Any gem slot that has less than +20 intellect you should Gem for Intel with either Brilliant Inferno Ruby's or Brilliant Queen's Garnets... you have a lot of +20/20 gems with only a +10 intel bonus meaning you're losing out on 10 intellect each time you gem.

That's not an issue really; at best it's a gain to gem a hybrid for a +10 bonus, at worst it'll break about even... and even then you're gaining Mastery in place of Intellect, which, all else being equal as far as overall dps, is a pretty good trade because you're getting extra controllable burst out of it.
Any gem slot that has less than +20 intellect you should Gem for Intel with either Brilliant Inferno Ruby's or Brilliant Queen's Garnets... you have a lot of +20/20 gems with only a +10 intel bonus meaning you're losing out on 10 intellect each time you gem.

That's not an issue really; at best it's a gain to gem a hybrid for a +10 bonus, at worst it'll break about even... and even then you're gaining Mastery in place of Intellect, which, all else being equal as far as overall dps, is a pretty good trade because you're getting extra controllable burst out of it.


And your pets get buffed by it aswell. as mastery = more damage with your pets which is what demon is. pet / burst spec
01/11/2012 05:25 PMPosted by Freohr
That said, if you're only playing Demo I much prefer mastery. Aside from being the generally better option by maybe a few hundred dps, having on-demand burst is generally far more valuable than more even dps, all else being equal. For stuff like Spine and Madness (Meta during cataclysm? /enable godmode), mastery is more useful by a landslide.


why do you think that ej advises in the demo thread to reforge to haste until ~2000 or so (1994? I forget) rather than keep mastery? It's also confusing because for example askmrrobot will have you reforge everything to mastery instead (not even keeping 1007).

I am trying to get some more dps out of my lock, since at the same gear level it's significantly lower than my warrior or my dk.
I think EJ presupposes you have a particular amount of gear (or haste gear, even). Mr. Robot is just terrible in general.

Basically if you're within maybe 50 or so haste of a breakpoint it's worth grabbing usually, but go much past that and it could well be a loss. Important breakpoints are 1003 (Shadowflame), 1007 (Immolation Aura), and 1804 (Immolation Aura). 1573 (Immolate) is nice to pick up for multidotting and not very costly, 1993 (Corruption) if you're really close to it might be worth swapping in some haste, but in truth its effect is pretty negligible.
01/12/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Kalidot
That said, if you're only playing Demo I much prefer mastery. Aside from being the generally better option by maybe a few hundred dps, having on-demand burst is generally far more valuable than more even dps, all else being equal. For stuff like Spine and Madness (Meta during cataclysm? /enable godmode), mastery is more useful by a landslide.


why do you think that ej advises in the demo thread to reforge to haste until ~2000 or so (1994? I forget) rather than keep mastery? It's also confusing because for example askmrrobot will have you reforge everything to mastery instead (not even keeping 1007).

I am trying to get some more dps out of my lock, since at the same gear level it's significantly lower than my warrior or my dk.


They only suggest the 1993 haste bracket for people around 397 ilvl.
I do get haste to 1993 and I feel pretty comfortable with that. I still have enough mastery to keep Meta pretty beefy.
As you can likely see by my armory I have chosen haste over mastery.

As has already been said, mastery increases your damage in meta, haste increases your damage all the time. If you get to stand still and tunnel the boss mastery will come out on top every time.

If you find yourself in situations where for any reason you don't get to use the full potential of your meta procs then it is not uncommon for a haste build to come out on top.

The argument for haste over mastery is situational at best and if you take all possible situations into account I wouldn't be surprised if mastery provided more dps than haste more often than not. However, like what was said before, a haste build allows you to quickly swap to affliction or destro on the fly without need to hearth and reforge, pretty handy in many situations.

As for your question re: incinerate or shadowbolt, that depends entirely on your spec and glyphs. I've noticed that you are specced to have incinerate as your filler (improved corruption over Sbolt cast time reduction) yet you have corruption glyphed instead of incinerate. If you want to continue with your incinerate build you should replace your corruption glyph with incinerate.

As far as the difference between incin fill build and Sbolt fill build, Sbolt fill build provides you with quicker immolate casts = higher multi target dps. Incin fill build = higher single target dps and more impending doom procs (more metas per fight). Incin build will win out on Ultraxion, Spine of Deathwing and I guess probably normal morchok and normal zon'ozz (though I've no practise doing those fights on normal with an incin build). Sbolt build will win on any fight where you are multi dotting.

Hope this has helped.

While I'm here, anyone done any math on BiS weapons for warlocks this tier? I played my paladin through Firelands so unfortunately dragonwrath is not available to me...
I have only one 85, and am fairly new to the WoW. I am stuck at about 15K DPS and have been searching how to improve. I am hit capped, and have been stacking Haste even though I am a demo spec as before this thread I believed that was best. I also have heard that Fel Puppy > Fel Guard on single target DPS (I don't understand how that makes sense, as only Demo Spec can get Fel Guard therefore Fel Guard should be made > than Fel Puppy) I have modeled my gems after the best Demo spec raider in my realm to the best of my ability.

My only conclusion on why my DPS is so low is that either I should not be stacking Haste over Mastery as a pure Demo spec lock. Or my stubborness is causing me to use Fel Guard until convinced that Fel Puppy is much better (and why). Or my Rotation/Priorities are FUBAR. My current Rotation/priorities are...

Meta > Doom Guard (if available) > Curse of Elem > Improved Soul Fire > Immolate > Hand of Gul > Curse of Agony > Corruption > Incenerate (if immolation aura is up) > soul fire (if less than 25%) > Shadow bolt (filler) > fel fire (if Immolate DoT is about to drop)

So what is it, is my Rotation/Priorities FUBAR or should I stop stacking Haste and start stacking Mastery. Or maybe Crit Strike or something out of the box... Help me get my DPS to 25K + Please.
Teno - use a felpuppy and watch your DPS increase by about 5k simple... Felpuppies have shadowbite which can do around 30-40k with a full line of DoTS on the target. The sooner you learn to keep your felhunter out, the better.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2913172711#7

There is your opening/spell priority to maximize your DPS.

http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t110366-demonology_cataclysm_4_3_release/

Read that and any remaining questions you have pertaining to the demonology class will be answered.

If you are too stubborn to change your demon, don't even bother reading the rest of it. All of this information is based on math and theoretical simulations - thus tested. If that is not enough to "convince" you of how to maximize your DPS then best of luck on your raids and have fun trying to optimize your own DPS.
Extremely Helpful Advice, I was able to bump all the way up to 28 K DPS in a lot of the boss fights in the first half of DS in LFR. A couple questions though.

1) What is Moonwell Chalice / How do you use it?

2) When is the proper time to summon Doom Guard? I know it was kind of explained but please dumb it down for me... (again newb to WoW)

3) Is the only way to improve gear for my Demo Lock VP and DS raids? Or are there alternative ways such as other valuable raids that are not outrageously difficult to find a group for.

P.S. I believe that it should be recognized that a lot of the best Demo Locks have emphasized Bane of Doom > Bane of Agony, something I did not know and have imporved my DPS greatly now that I have learned that fact.

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