Please bring back whoever designed Ulduar

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It wasn't just mimiron, it was the design of the entire dungeon. It just feels epic. You can tell in every square inch of the dungeon that a lot of love went into it, from the translucent floors to the tram ride right down to the most epic fight in the game (algalon). The entire dungeon was amazing, and to be honest that really hasn't been replicated since. Toc was horrible, icc was certainly epic but not exactly a visual masterpiece. The t11 raids were too short and very simple in their design, firelands is pretty much the cata's toc, and ds is just a place we've already seen before. Nothing has really come close to ulduar, and that is one of the many problems in the game at the moment.
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Ulduar is an example of a raid where lots of players got to enjoy the first few bosses, and very few players ever saw the last few. Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult.

And lots of players not being able to clear a whole raid was not a problem than was it, why is such now? And the excuse that normal modes are not made for PuGs does not fly because PuGs are doing the content and personally normal mode Ulduar was harder than T11 and T12 prenerf which PuGs was getting up to the last bosses and even downing them.


Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.

Of course, having multiple raids in a tier (like the combination of Bastion of Twilight and Blackwing Descent) has the advantage of giving players different environments to play in while potentially making scheduling and logistics easier.

The raids can be split up into multiple wings of separate instances. Why is it that the raids are only going to get split up for LFR version, PuGs would benefit greatly from raids getting split up. There is also the option of releasing another raid later on in the tier to allow a longer development time. Its a sort of gating method that can be used to keep players interested for longer periods of time within a tier.

Overall why I enjoyed Ulduar was its creativity and liveliness of the zone. You had some cheesy voice acting and yet it was fun and full of energy. Ulduar is an example of a zone that is fun to see when it was current and now that you can burn through mechanics, the fun was just not solely on the fight mechanics. For me DS on the other hand is bland, boring, and confusing, especially in a LFR environment.

Well I also have a preference for the dwarven/titian and naga zones which is why it was quite sad with abyssal maw not being released.
If the development time required to create a raid like Ulduar is an issue, and it will get split into pieces for LFR purposes like Dragon Soul... is there any reason you couldn't create a raid with a bunch of wings/areas and release a few for one tier, and the remainder for the next tier?

Using Ulduar as an example, you release the Siege area and the entry-hall (up to Kologarn) as one tier, and release the keepers, Yogg and Algalon in the next tier? That way content gets released for people to play; we get the epic raid design that Ulduar had, and the raid doesn't get stuck in development for a year as the team tries to finish it.

If the wings/structure was designed right it would even make sense for people to be able to enter the later parts without having to clear the earlier parts (not that doing so with the above Ulduar example would work).
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Pushing a big red button for Mimiron was very cool, and again is fondly remembered. We have created something like 40 raid bosses since the creation of those encounters however, and we cant help but think that it would start to feel really gimmicky and forced if every raid encounter had its difficulty set by pushing a button, (or not killing adds, or changing the order you kill the bosses, or the other mechanics we used in Ulduar). We think Mimiron would feel less special if there were six more bosses in the game with big red buttons, and we’re just not sure the design space is there to have a near infinite variety of means by which players launch a heroic mode in game.


I think you're missing the point somewhat.

I'm sure you're right that if every boss had a "big red button", then that would diminish the special feeling that comes with those encounters prior with the same mechanics. However, right now, right-clicking on your portrait and selecting the "Heroic" checkbox is about as dull as it can get.

Maybe not every boss needs a heroic mode? Quality over quantity.
Maybe returning to longer raids isn't such a bad thing... I think people really miss the challenge of the old school raids, and it's clear that the Ulduar style hardmodes were one of the most popular mechanics in WoW's raiding history. Even if a guild can't clear a raid in one session, so be it, why is breaking up progression over multiple days such a bad thing?

As for people who don't like this style because of their alts, pick a main character, and don't try to dedicate 5 different characters to progression raiding...
Ulduar was the single greatest raiding experience I've had in this game, and I still complain that it ended with my guild and i only getting a few cracks at mimi (the last titan we needed to down) before the tourney patch came out and ruined it. I still have not seen yogg, azgalon, and the general (I'm sure those names are spelled wrong or incorrect), because I can't convince anyone to go with me lol Just left a bitter taste in my mouth and I haven't been overly serious about raiding since, and when I say overly serious, I don't mean hardcore. Just mean it's something I'm interested in doing every week.
<3 Ulduar

</3 Iron Dwarf, Medium Rare

Actually, the only parts of Ulduar I didn't like were Flame Leviathan - which was fine - Razorscale, Ignis and sometimes Kologarn simply because I found them boring or, in the case of Kologarn and Razorscale, had beyond frustrating achievements linked with them.

I really enjoyed the HMs in Ulduar unlike now where I'm both annoyed and bored with what we're working on. Yes, I'm looking at you heroic Spine. I don't really like doing the exact same thing over and over for 15m. Who even came up with the idea for that heroic? (or normal/lfr spine too for that matter. Same problem with them) Blah!
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call.


As someone who brings 6 toons (so far) into LFR weekly, I would say the length of the raid is just nice!

Maybe just tune the normal and heroic raids even harder and lengthier in terms of encounter? I mean, the raiders often complain that it is too easy right? So instead of 1 tentacle at each platform (Madness), give them like ... 16 to kill?
I support this threads message. More Ulduar please.
Actually, the only parts of Ulduar I didn't like were Flame Leviathan - which was fine - Razorscale, Ignis and sometimes Kologarn simply because I found them boring or, in the case of Kologarn and Razorscale, had beyond frustrating achievements linked with them.


I really liked Razorscale prenerf, it was actually challenging then when the mole machines could pop up in far more places. After they made them predictable, a lot of the chaos I enjoy was gone.

For me the only thing I really hated in Ulduar was Auriaya. Whether doing it regular or Crazy Cat Lady, it didn't matter, I could only give Ulduar a perfect 10/10 if she was deleted.
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
(but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall)

I just noticed this...

Really? Is this really a bad thing?

You give us these artificial blocks in gearing anyway, i.e. VP caps, so why is this a bad thing?

It isn't like we don't DE our umpteenth axe and agi dagger from Madness anyway ._.
01/26/2012 04:21 PMPosted by Talizorah
Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call.


As someone who brings 6 toons (so far) into LFR weekly, I would say the length of the raid is just nice!

Maybe just tune the normal and heroic raids even harder and lengthier in terms of encounter? I mean, the raiders often complain that it is too easy right? So instead of 1 tentacle at each platform (Madness), give them like ... 16 to kill?

So because you want to fully gear six of your alts, those of us with mains that we enjoy get shafted with 7~8 boss raids that we can clear in a little over two hours?

When did ALL of your alts have to be geared now now now?
I really liked Razorscale prenerf, it was actually challenging then when the mole machines could pop up in far more places. After they made them predictable, a lot of the chaos I enjoy was gone.


Yeah some of those early bosses - and trash mind you - were so OP. I recall the first week or two of Razorscale and remembering how hard that boss was. After it got nerfed it was so much more boring. The only reason I get that irritated at that boss more recently is simply cause people want the achievement for their meta when we go in and my god talk about falling asleep >.>.

But do you remember the jumping fire debuff from the trash in front of Ignis? Or XT's trash before they reduced it? These were some epic trash...
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.

While longer raids are something many of us want, the bigger issue is the number of bosses per raid teir. Look at it from our perspective, you get a raid like Ulduar or ICC and you only have to wait 4 months between patches toget them. And then suddenly in Cata, you wat 6-7 months for FL which had 7, and then another 6 months (or whatever it was) and you get 8 in DS.
Not even getting into quality, how can you expect that to be OK? Less bosses and more time between them???


We think Mimiron would feel less special if there were six more bosses in the game with big red buttons, and we’re just not sure the design space is there to have a near infinite variety of means by which players launch a heroic mode in game.

Actually, I would lean towards there being a nearly infinite number if people put their minds to it. I will just throw out some quick ideas I have thought of in the last 2 min or so.
Shannox - trap both dogs at the same time in order to enrage shannox causing hard mode content.
Rhyolith - Hit X number of valcanos in X seconds (slighly RNG but it will work itself out)
Alys - Make adds after tornados killable, killing them does something.
Domo - Reach X number of stacks
Hagara - Kill all 4 shards in ice phase in 3 seconds
Ultraxion - Everyone jumps off (slow fall debuff) then he drags you back up (cause that would be awesome...)
(I probably spelled lots of these wrong...I am aware, I just don't care enough to check)


Nonetheless, because there are so many requests for those style mechanics, we are considering doing a few bosses with optional modes (in the same way Mimiron, Freya or Sartharion had them) in Mists of Pandaria.

I think this is a good plan, but there is more to it than just changing the hard modes. I personally liked BWD and BoT was OK. FL was....parts of it were good, Some boss mechanics were cool and Rag was by far my favorite bossof the expansion....but it was only 7 bosses, and the nerfs came too soon imo and were too extreme. It also was just....not quite as good as a lot of the raids. DS....imo, worst raid since TOC. I know that sounds harsh but....Not sure I can be much easier on it. Mostly reused boss models and locations, blah mechanics compared to previous raids....I know thats highly subjective but from a healing perspective, at least on normal, 4 out of the first 5 amount to stack up and AoE heal the crap out of people. Sorry but those can't comare to a Chimeron or Defense Council or ...honestly just about any other fight in the expansion.

This is all just my opinion and I am really not trying to rip Cata apart, but I really don't like the direction that Cata raids have taken and would love to see them go back to what they once were. That opinion comes from someone in a pretty casual 10 man guild. I ikehard raids, I don't like nerfs to current content. Even if I don't get to see the content I want to be working toward it, not have it made easier so I can do it.

Please bring back old raiding.
01/25/2012 06:06 PMPosted by Union
Is the key to happy players really about making quality content thats actually fun to do over and over again even if your hitting a wall


This.

Also, in Ulduar, there was no ONE PLAYER FAILS THE DANCE = WIPE mechanic. That's what's frustrating players right now. They can be doing everything right, but one player failing the dance is out of their control. If it was a gear check, dps check or otherwise, you can tell the bad player how to get better. But when it comes to dance mechanics like "press the button when this happens"... there's nothing you can do to help that player. It's out of your control. You cannot help that player. Yet if they fail, EVERYONE fails.

That's frustrating.


Agreed.
Maybe just tune the normal and heroic raids even harder and lengthier in terms of encounter? I mean, the raiders often complain that it is too easy right? So instead of 1 tentacle at each platform (Madness), give them like ... 16 to kill?

You just don't get it.

That is why heroic modes now are NOT enjoyable in comparison to the heroic modes in Ulduar because they are the same fight + extra tentacles.
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Here's the thing -- Ulduar is an example of a raid where lots of players got to enjoy the first few bosses, and very few players ever saw the last few. Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall).


You have to also admit Yogg and Algalon weren't killed as much as some other end bosses because of how soon ToC came out. Ulduar was current content for 4 months. Icecrown was current for 12 months. DS will be current for what 8-10 months?

I don't know if I get shorter expansions really. If you put out raids like Ulduar, Black Temple, Karazhan, and some fun shorter raids on the side like Onyxia, Gruuls, Mag you don't need to rush things so much. Let the players work at progressing the main raids over the course of the week and have some 3day lockout raids you can clear in a short night for side grades.

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