Please bring back whoever designed Ulduar

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01/26/2012 06:32 PMPosted by Turiyaa
You are not losing subscriptions because people "do not see" the content. You are losing subscriptions because what people " do see" is not up to par.

And they see it all during patch release week, meaning there's "nothing to do" until the next patch release week.

There MUST be more to see to keep people logging in.

It MUST take some time to go through all available content at max level to keep people interested.

These are not rules that can be broken if you expect success.

And that is where Blizzard is having an issue juggling.

One hand there are those of us that are happy with taking multiple resets till we finally kill the big bad end boss. On the other hand there are those that want it "NOW!" and quickly give up if they can't get it "NOW!"

Blizzard trying to cater to the latter is how we got the raids we do now ._.
And that is where Blizzard is having an issue juggling.

One hand there are those of us that are happy with taking multiple resets till we finally kill the big bad end boss. On the other hand there are those that want it "NOW!" and quickly give up if they can't get it "NOW!"

Blizzard trying to cater to the latter is how we got the raids we do now ._.


What Blizzard needs to realize is that catering to group A gives them breathing space to work on other content while group B forces them to rush patches which degrades the quality of the game as a whole.



There are some very odd statements here and also somewhat disingenuous.

For starters, Algalon was designed to be a heroic only boss and it was behind a wall of heroic bosses just to get to him. The targeted audience for this boss was the progression guilds that were working towards or clearing heroics - these are the very same guilds that never had a problem with the instance being "too large" or taking "too long" - rather these are the very guilds that had the time to do so.

To design him that way and then afterwards proclaim that the main reason so many didn't see him was.... the instance was too large... is at the very least a very silly statement. The modern equivalent of this boss is Sinestra and even now - 2 tiers later - only 2% of guilds have killed it. Please do not tell me in MoP the reson for not having such a boss will again be "because it took too long to clear BoT so not many people saw Sinestra...".

Next, I am not sure if you actually raided during Ulduar or not but Yogg Saron was a huge increase in difficulty from the previous bosses. While some higher end guilds may not have had the same issues, for the vast majority of casual guilds, dealing with clouds - particularly before they announced who they hit - was enough to leave with you no hair.

Yogg Saron, normal 25 man (before taking any keepers away) has the distinct pleasure of being almost tied to Lich King heroic for the number of failed attempts to kill boss. The only other boss that was in that ballpark was Sartharion 3D so to say once again that that Yogg Saron was not difficult and once again it was because the instance was too large makes it feel like you never actually raided this tier when it was current at all.




Ulduar had the longest longevity of every raid in WotLK and Cataclysm. One of the biggest problems with Ulduar was that you released ToC too soon.

Ulduar was released on 14 April 2009 and ToC on 4 August 2009 which only left 4 months of progression in there and the vast majority of raiding guilds were still working on Ulduar bosses - we even went back in there for several montsh after ToC was released finishing bosses, and a large reason for that was because the fights were so much better and more fun and were still considered progression.

This instance was designed to take time to clear which gave it a long life span. If you designed raids like this you don't need to bring out content faster. The only reason you have to bring out content so much faster now is because you shot yourselves in the foot and designed the content to be cleared faster.

I will never understand the mentality behind designing content that can be gobbled up in a few weeks then complaining about us being bored and having nothing to do - and then using this as a justification for reducing the content further. It is no wonder people are starting to get ansy for new stuff in shorter time periods - you designed it that way.

[quote]Pushing a big red button for Mimiron was very cool, and again is fondly remembered. We have created something like 40 raid bosses since the creation of those encounters however, and we cant help but think that it would start to feel really gimmicky and forced if every raid encounter had its difficulty set by pushing a button, (or not killing adds, or changing the order you kill the bosses, or the other mechanics we used in Ulduar). We think Mimiron would feel less special if there were six more bosses in the game with big red buttons, and we’re just not sure the design space is there to have a near infinite variety of means by which players launch a heroic mode in game.


You know I hold the example of Ulduar in one hand and the example of having a "toggle" for heroic mode in the other and sorry but this makes no sense whatsoever.

I can understand the point of view that it is hard to make consistently new and unique ways of engaging heroics - but what the bloody hell do you think we are doing now? We HAVE a big red button for every single boss mode - the only difference is the mouse click is on your UI instead of on the wall. You talk about the mechanics in Ulduar becoming gimmicky after a time and yet the method you currently have in place is - and this is a personal opinion here so others will disagree - the stupidest design for implementing heroic modes since you first started experimenting with them.

There is no story behind them, no reason for there to be a heroic, no flow on with Raid design. I can't help visualising the Boss in front of us going "Come on, toggle that litte button and I will show you what I have under this kilt...!".

Long story short, if you design instances like Ulduar that are made to last, and have engaging switches between heroics and normals then not only do you have more time to create content and people are not in such a rush to move on, but you have much more engaging encounters that people talk about 2 years later. From a raider point of view I would have thought this is a win/win - you get more slack on the reigns to design better and more well thought out content.

But please, do not try to tell us that the reason you don't want to do this is because it takes too long to design and we want more content more quickly when the very reason we need that content more quickly is because you intentionally designed it that way.


As it's been reposted many times. Blizzard. This thread is the key to not only stop losing subs, but start gaining them again. This one post right here. Don't ignore it. I'm telling you. This is the one post to rule them all. EVERYONE, REPOST THIS POST!!!
A look back to the last great patch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEylX2LJ8c4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv_b1-bsN5o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6Pht3iRq8Y
Funny story, I HATE the trash in DS. ESPECIALLY those fething oozes. Ugh.
if anything bring back something like Karazhan.. that was mostly your first shot at real 10 man raids (you could say UBRS was the first) and man I loved Kara! so much so I healed and dps'd on 4 different characters and they are all exalted with The Eye faction or whatever it was. Thats how much i loved Kara and how much we ran that dungeon on a weekly basis. the quality is great and the lore is pretty cool and the fights all challenging and different in their own way. i still have a frapsed video from one of the first times we downed moroes as a guild at the time and i still watch it from time to time to relive it. good times.
01/26/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Hysteríc
Funny story, I HATE the trash in DS. ESPECIALLY those fething oozes. Ugh.

I don't think anyone likes the trash in DS. They are just randomly plunked down to take up our time and in no way add to the feel of the instance.
Please bring back whoever designed Ulduar
agreed 100%
01/26/2012 07:25 PMPosted by Munzie
Please bring back whoever designed Ulduar
agreed 100%

<3

And that is where Blizzard is having an issue juggling.

One hand there are those of us that are happy with taking multiple resets till we finally kill the big bad end boss. On the other hand there are those that want it "NOW!" and quickly give up if they can't get it "NOW!"

Blizzard trying to cater to the latter is how we got the raids we do now ._.


What Blizzard needs to realize is that catering to group A gives them breathing space to work on other content while group B forces them to rush patches which degrades the quality of the game as a whole.

Not to mention the fact that letting people speed through content = more bored players ><
01/26/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Virtutis
Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall). Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.


There are some very odd statements here and also somewhat disingenuous.

For starters, Algalon was designed to be a heroic only boss and it was behind a wall of heroic bosses just to get to him. The targeted audience for this boss was the progression guilds that were working towards or clearing heroics - these are the very same guilds that never had a problem with the instance being "too large" or taking "too long" - rather these are the very guilds that had the time to do so.

To design him that way and then afterwards proclaim that the main reason so many didn't see him was.... the instance was too large... is at the very least a very silly statement. The modern equivalent of this boss is Sinestra and even now - 2 tiers later - only 2% of guilds have killed it. Please do not tell me in MoP the reson for not having such a boss will again be "because it took too long to clear BoT so not many people saw Sinestra...".

Next, I am not sure if you actually raided during Ulduar or not but Yogg Saron was a huge increase in difficulty from the previous bosses. While some higher end guilds may not have had the same issues, for the vast majority of casual guilds, dealing with clouds - particularly before they announced who they hit - was enough to leave with you no hair.

Yogg Saron, normal 25 man (before taking any keepers away) has the distinct pleasure of being almost tied to Lich King heroic for the number of failed attempts to kill boss. The only other boss that was in that ballpark was Sartharion 3D so to say once again that that Yogg Saron was not difficult and once again it was because the instance was too large makes it feel like you never actually raided this tier when it was current at all.

Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.


Ulduar had the longest longevity of every raid in WotLK and Cataclysm. One of the biggest problems with Ulduar was that you released ToC too soon.

Ulduar was released on 14 April 2009 and ToC on 4 August 2009 which only left 4 months of progression in there and the vast majority of raiding guilds were still working on Ulduar bosses - we even went back in there for several montsh after ToC was released finishing bosses, and a large reason for that was because the fights were so much better and more fun and were still considered progression.

This instance was designed to take time to clear which gave it a long life span. If you designed raids like this you don't need to bring out content faster. The only reason you have to bring out content so much faster now is because you shot yourselves in the foot and designed the content to be cleared faster.

I will never understand the mentality behind designing content that can be gobbled up in a few weeks then complaining about us being bored and having nothing to do - and then using this as a justification for reducing the content further. It is no wonder people are starting to get ansy for new stuff in shorter time periods - you designed it that way.

Pushing a big red button for Mimiron was very cool, and again is fondly remembered. We have created something like 40 raid bosses since the creation of those encounters however, and we cant help but think that it would start to feel really gimmicky and forced if every raid encounter had its difficulty set by pushing a button, (or not killing adds, or changing the order you kill the bosses, or the other mechanics we used in Ulduar). We think Mimiron would feel less special if there were six more bosses in the game with big red buttons, and we’re just not sure the design space is there to have a near infinite variety of means by which players launch a heroic mode in game.


You know I hold the example of Ulduar in one hand and the example of having a "toggle" for heroic mode in the other and sorry but this makes no sense whatsoever.

I can understand the point of view that it is hard to make consistently new and unique ways of engaging heroics - but what the bloody hell do you think we are doing now? We HAVE a big red button for every single boss mode - the only difference is the mouse click is on your UI instead of on the wall. You talk about the mechanics in Ulduar becoming gimmicky after a time and yet the method you currently have in place is - and this is a personal opinion here so others will disagree - the stupidest design for implementing heroic modes since you first started experimenting with them.

There is no story behind them, no reason for there to be a heroic, no flow on with Raid design. I can't help visualising the Boss in front of us going "Come on, toggle that litte button and I will show you what I have under this kilt...!".

Long story short, if you design instances like Ulduar that are made to last, and have engaging switches between heroics and normals then not only do you have more time to create content and people are not in such a rush to move on, but you have much more engaging encounters that people talk about 2 years later. From a raider point of view I would have thought this is a win/win - you get more slack on the reigns to design better and more well thought out content.

But please, do not try to tell us that the reason you don't want to do this is because it takes too long to design and we want more content more quickly when the very reason we need that content more quickly is because you intentionally designed it that way.


Pretty much the greatest post I've seen on here in a long time. Exactly how I feel and people who haven't read this because they think it's TLDR, do yourself a favor and actually read it.
I'd like an Ulduar, but split into a t11 style format like with BWD/BoT/To4W.

I actually really liked t11, I felt that Nef/Cho/AA/Sinestra were the correct difficulty - very few guilds managed to kill all of them and that's the way it should be, but a lot of people did manage to kill 1 or 2 to get a title.


You know I hold the example of Ulduar in one hand and the example of having a "toggle" for heroic mode in the other and sorry but this makes no sense whatsoever.

I can understand the point of view that it is hard to make consistently new and unique ways of engaging heroics - but what the bloody hell do you think we are doing now? We HAVE a big red button for every single boss mode - the only difference is the mouse click is on your UI instead of on the wall. You talk about the mechanics in Ulduar becoming gimmicky after a time and yet the method you currently have in place is - and this is a personal opinion here so others will disagree - the stupidest design for implementing heroic modes since you first started experimenting with them.

There is no story behind them, no reason for there to be a heroic, no flow on with Raid design. I can't help visualising the Boss in front of us going "Come on, toggle that litte button and I will show you what I have under this kilt...!".

Long story short, if you design instances like Ulduar that are made to last, and have engaging switches between heroics and normals then not only do you have more time to create content and people are not in such a rush to move on, but you have much more engaging encounters that people talk about 2 years later. From a raider point of view I would have thought this is a win/win - you get more slack on the reigns to design better and more well thought out content.

But please, do not try to tell us that the reason you don't want to do this is because it takes too long to design and we want more content more quickly when the very reason we need that content more quickly is because you intentionally designed it that way.


As it's been reposted many times. Blizzard. This thread is the key to not only stop losing subs, but start gaining them again. This one post right here. Don't ignore it. I'm telling you. This is the one post to rule them all. EVERYONE, REPOST THIS POST!!!


This 100 times over. What is interesting or fun about clicking heroic on a UI? If the majority of people like the current system more than actual optional mechanics I would be surprised, very very surprised.

I am pretty sure their plans are to just re-use bunch of models in future tiers. Dragon Soul for example, like seriously we are back in Wyrmrest Temple area with some tentacles and a re-used general vezax/ old gods models. All the bosses and the environment around them look dumb exception of the maelstrom is pretty cool looking. I can't stand spine and octopus boss being the final heroic boss. When blizzard said it was supposed to be the most "epic" encounter you have gone against, they clearly lied.

:/
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Here's the thing -- Ulduar is an example of a raid where lots of players got to enjoy the first few bosses, and very few players ever saw the last few. Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall). Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.


LFR would solve this.

For players who raid normal and heroic modes, I think it's a safe assumption that they'll be able to schedule raids around a 16 boss dungeon. After all, even the 16 boss dungeons could be cleared in <5 hours once the thing is on farm.

Oh, and don't forget the main reason why ICC/Ulduar took so long to reach the final few bosses was due to trash, and not the number of bosses.

I hope to see another Ulduar-style dungeon in the game again.

Also, the reason why I like the Ulduar style of hard mode activation is that it forced creativity into heroic modes. A lot of Dragon Soul encounters, for example, include very little that changes from the normal boss fight. Having Freya gain all of the abilities of her minibosses is a lot more interesting than Zon'ozz gaining one mechanic or the Skittles boss summoning an additional ooze. Having a battle themed entirely around a self-destruct mechanism, including a slew of new boss abilities and environmental abilities based on that mechanism, made the hard mode interesting - not so much the fact that you pressed a big red button.

I REALLY like heroic bosses that are hard because they have cool new mechanics, or use the existing mechanics in a very intriguing way. Heroic bosses that are hard simply because they do 50% more damage and have 50% more health (think Ultraxion, Spine, etc.) are not interesting.
This sort of needs to stay on the first page because it is a necessity to change the format of raids
01/25/2012 04:11 PMPosted by Nyzul
They also need to make raids that don't need nerfing. Can't recall if Ulduar even had nerfs. Prob did but I can't recall them.


xt was one of the most nerfed bosses ever lol
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Nonetheless, because there are so many requests for those style mechanics, we are considering doing a few bosses with optional modes (in the same way Mimiron, Freya or Sartharion had them) in Mists of Pandaria.


I would like this, even if not all the bosses had them they still gave a neat feel to the fight.

I agree with other on the matter of LFR will allow people to see long raids (split it into 3-4 wings) since they have felt the most epic imo.

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