Cataclysm PVP Feedback

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Whats are your top issues with general pvp/arenas in Cataclysm
My BIGGEST issue with pvp is the gear. It never changes. And by that I mean the set bonuses, glove bonuses, Weapon procs and trinkets. We never get anything fun to play around with in pvp. Ever since wow launched the PVE gear has had alot of cool effects. Even more so in cataclysm. Its no wonder people want to use pve weapons. trinkets, and even some armor for the set bonuses. Some of them are damn fun and there is nothing in the pvp arsenal that is unique and fun to the same extent.

The last change to pvp gear I remember, besides resilience, was the passive stat bonus you got for 2 and 4 armor pieces. And you know what? I was stoked! Thats how hungry I was for SOMETHING! Anything. And ofc people used the gear in pve so it got nerfed alittle. Which I thought was just typical:p

So what I'd like to see in Mop is some new pvp gear set bonuses. Some new trinkets and weapons with procs. And since we're talking pvp here they could very well be pvp related to prevent a "zomg! Pvp gear proc is awsome! Must use in pve!". Gearing up is fun. But its starting to get old in pvp. Its the same gear with + to your primary stats. Nothing changes. If some well thought out bonuses are put in, then seasons might actually differ from eachother besides the gear look and stats increase. Players might actually have to change how they play from season to season. Which sounds fun to me^^

So let the pve weapons proc tentacles! As long as my mighty pvp axe summons The Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog! And let the pve trinkets proc extra attacks as long as my pvp trinket procs The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch;) Fun fun!

I think Cata did PvP better than every previous expansion. Up until the end. I liked how you couldn't kill someone in a single rotation in 4.1 or so. But damage really seemed to outpace health and now we're right back at the WotLK PvP model of people getting entirely gibbed in a single round of burst. Even without any of the now-modified trinkets and items, since this was happening last patch a bit as well.

I liked Twin Peaks, still dislike IoC, though. Battle for Gilneas is still a little sad since it's so tiny and there's very little of the actual City of Gilneas represented. But it's fun at its core.

My main issue with PvP, though, has been accessibility. I feel like RBGs need a Raid Finder feature. A way for you to queue for RBGs and the game will attempt to match you to teams with a general composition and relatively close to your personal rating. Sort of like the Ladders in games like League of Legends. Normal BG queue is normal match queue. Rated BG queue is Ranked matchmaking. Eventually you can work yourself up to, say, a 2k rating and both teams in those queues would be entirely in the 1900-2100 range.

It's just hard to find an RBG guild on most servers. It's hard for me to find and stick with a guild. Period. Since I alt a lot.

Edit: Also, screw the advice not to talk about balance. GET RID OF "CONTROL" SPECS. THEY RUIN PVP. Also, global 50% healing debuff in 2s if you're going to keep offering it, please. Healers in 2s are either there to turtle vs double dps and slowly kill them by outlasting them, or to sit through 20-minute snore-fests every other game when they get put up against another healer comp.
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  • What are your biggest PVP related quality of life issues? (Things that are an inconvenience but don't significantly affect game play or balance)

  • Playing IoC and SotA. War machines are not PvP, they are machine vs. player. :(
    No call to arms during the week to help avoid them...

  • What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?

  • Very disappointed in the TP reskin. Many possible changes could have been made to make it a different experience than WSG, such as an NPC flag carrier, nodes that give teamwide buffs, removing mounts, etc...

  • What Cataclysm Arena changes/additions did you like?

  • As a casual player I don't play arena. Kids, job, etc...

  • What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like?

  • Conquest for randoms is great.

  • What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?

  • Random teams being poorly matched, let the leet players play the leet players, and the scrubs play the scrubs.

  • What are your top issues with Arenas in Cataclysm?

  • Not accessable to the casual player through a random queueing system.

  • What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?


  • Too much self healing for DK, Pally, and Rogue. Healing classes OP in general. Too many CC, stuns, and silences, it's not fun when you can't play.
    My most hated things.

    SEPERATE FOR PVP AND PVE! it is the only way there will be any hope for TRUE balance of abilities. Just like what was done with Colossus smash.

    Don't use the excuse that it will become too confusing for players, people don't even know boss fights so I think all hope is kinda lost in that regard anyway.

    Slow Balance changes - It seems the community knows when something is completely overpowered or underpowered or something that just needs an increase. Like what you're doing to fire mages and hunters for 4.3.2. Why can't that be done more often? Dont use the excuse you don't like to get people to change specs/glyphs/gems each patch because that excuse is rubbish and the game will never be balanced in a reasonable amount of time (every 3-4 months isn't reasonable IMO.

    Vengeance - The new upcoming nerf is basically going to make tanks almost useless except for flag carrying duties, if that is the intent then so be it but maybe a 75% nerf instead would have been sufficient?

    Class cooldown disparities - Moonkin lol.. Compared to Mages lol...

    Balancing cooldowns - Why can a hunter not shoot while deterrance is active yet a paladin can when he bubbles?

    Mana for healers - Whether they have 100% or 5% mana they seem to be able to spam heal everyone and survive with multiple people attacking them WITH MS!

    Revamp/Update AV - Just mirror the bases, Alliance just waltz right into our base and cap the flags without guards even worrying them, Or atleast add about 50 guards in between all those buildings the alliance just derp and run through. Make the NPC's meaningful and summons etc, bring back the chaotic destruction that AV used to provide...

    Gear - Make PvE gear banned for anyform of PvP combat simple fix. If your PvP tag is on, you can only wear that specific gear.

    Get rid of high rated gear, regardless of who can reach it. PvP is about skill so maybe just award them an achievement or something, keep the gear level across the board.

    Arena - Ban drinking, you start with whatever hp/mana you have. Add maybe a passive +mana regen aura or something so that everyone can get some sort of regen then.

    LoS Far too much in arena, I'd prefer more dynamic LoS that appears suddenly then disappears, much like the Dalaran waterfall thingo and it requires timing and skill to effectively use it, not like healers herp derping behind them while a dps wants to smash his/her computer in frustration.

    WPvP - Think of Tarren Mill/Southshore days, make an incentive for PvE players to go there and participate and also just for rewards.

    Coodowns - Warrior 20% dmg intake when using Recklessness (Remove it)
    Cripping Poison 70%?! (Change it to 50% or less)
    Deterrance 30% less damage taken while active (extend it to last 5 seconds after the effect of Deterrance wears off)
    Bear form healing crap (It makes sense for a bear to live when 5 people are attacking it hurr)
    Rets (nerf burst or give warriors some sort of ignore armor to make hitting a paladin or DK not hit for bugger all)
    Frost mage (Buff the shields, moment they're gone which is like 2-3 hits we're extremely vulnerable)

    Stuns/Silences - One interrupt and one silence per class with a long lockout and considerable cooldown that makes the effectiveness both requiring excellent timing and skill. Get rid of PvP trinket to get out of things also.


    Conclusion: I honestly think that seperating skills from PvP and PvE aspect will be the one and truly only way to balance individuals skills to the degree required for both forms of combat. It is also the one change out of all that I hope is done.







    First off, I'd like to give a huge "hats off" Thank You! to Eldacar for starting and helping moderate this thread. I really wish we could have more "green text" activity like this. Bravo.

    Secondly, despite my "complaints" and suggestions that follow, I want to say I still love WoW and Blizzard. Both are very near and dear to my heart. Despite its many flaws and what I feel is a bit of a misplaced attitude toward pvper's by the the Devs, I do feel WoW has some of the best PvP in an mmo I've tried. The responsiveness and immediacy of my actions in what is what kept me from going to WAR and SWTOR permanently. If WAR or SWTOR had PvP as good as WoW, I would have never come back. So, yeah people actually do pay $15/mo just to PvP.

    With that said, I'd like to say overall my PvP experience in Cata has been good for the simple fact that Random Battlegrounds, which is really the only thing that is accessible to me as a player who chooses NOT to schedule my life around a game anymore (I used to be a hardcore raider), have been for the most part pretty fun and allow for the gradual acquisition of competitive gear. I'm a busy doctor (family practice) and I'm 40, so I just can't really do the whole "be on server at 8pm to 11pm 3 to 4 days a week" anymore. I don't want to either. Sometimes I think back to my hardcore raiding days and say "what was I thinking?"

    Back to the points at hand, what I will include below will be "my list" of issues and suggestions to make things better for people like me who:

    a.) play the game everyday but not on a "set schedule"
    b.) want to NOT have to depend on other people (guildies, team members) in order to get a good competitive game experience
    c.) play to win but also don't want to be part of the "elitist" and what I personally find to be an immature mindset.
    d.) like PvE (I love questing and dungeons) but really find the most compelling gameplay that comes with playing vs live opponents.

    * I would do this all in one post but whenever I go past about 3 or 4 decent sized paragraphs the forums bug on me and cause every letter to make the who text box "jump up and down" which makes it hard for me to post long discussions.

    << this is the spot where the text becomes jumpy, so frustrating.
    My most hated things.

    SEPERATE FOR PVP AND PVE! it is the only way there will be any hope for TRUE balance of abilities. Just like what was done with Colossus smash.

    Don't use the excuse that it will become too confusing for players, people don't even know boss fights so I think all hope is kinda lost in that regard anyway.

    Slow Balance changes - It seems the community knows when something is completely overpowered or underpowered or something that just needs an increase. Like what you're doing to fire mages and hunters for 4.3.2. Why can't that be done more often? Dont use the excuse you don't like to get people to change specs/glyphs/gems each patch because that excuse is rubbish and the game will never be balanced in a reasonable amount of time (every 3-4 months isn't reasonable IMO.

    Vengeance - The new upcoming nerf is basically going to make tanks almost useless except for flag carrying duties, if that is the intent then so be it but maybe a 75% nerf instead would have been sufficient?

    Class cooldown disparities - Moonkin lol.. Compared to Mages lol...

    Balancing cooldowns - Why can a hunter not shoot while deterrance is active yet a paladin can when he bubbles?

    Mana for healers - Whether they have 100% or 5% mana they seem to be able to spam heal everyone and survive with multiple people attacking them WITH MS!

    Revamp/Update AV - Just mirror the bases, Alliance just waltz right into our base and cap the flags without guards even worrying them, Or atleast add about 50 guards in between all those buildings the alliance just derp and run through. Make the NPC's meaningful and summons etc, bring back the chaotic destruction that AV used to provide...

    Gear - Make PvE gear banned for anyform of PvP combat simple fix. If your PvP tag is on, you can only wear that specific gear.

    Get rid of high rated gear, regardless of who can reach it. PvP is about skill so maybe just award them an achievement or something, keep the gear level across the board.

    Arena - Ban drinking, you start with whatever hp/mana you have. Add maybe a passive +mana regen aura or something so that everyone can get some sort of regen then.

    LoS Far too much in arena, I'd prefer more dynamic LoS that appears suddenly then disappears, much like the Dalaran waterfall thingo and it requires timing and skill to effectively use it, not like healers herp derping behind them while a dps wants to smash his/her computer in frustration.

    WPvP - Think of Tarren Mill/Southshore days, make an incentive for PvE players to go there and participate and also just for rewards.

    Coodowns - Warrior 20% dmg intake when using Recklessness (Remove it)
    Cripping Poison 70%?! (Change it to 50% or less)
    Deterrance 30% less damage taken while active (extend it to last 5 seconds after the effect of Deterrance wears off)
    Bear form healing crap (It makes sense for a bear to live when 5 people are attacking it hurr)
    Rets (nerf burst or give warriors some sort of ignore armor to make hitting a paladin or DK not hit for bugger all)
    Frost mage (Buff the shields, moment they're gone which is like 2-3 hits we're extremely vulnerable)

    Stuns/Silences - One interrupt and one silence per class with a long lockout and considerable cooldown that makes the effectiveness both requiring excellent timing and skill. Get rid of PvP trinket to get out of things also.


    Conclusion: I honestly think that seperating skills from PvP and PvE aspect will be the one and truly only way to balance individuals skills to the degree required for both forms of combat. It is also the one change out of all that I hope is done.


    This guy makes sense. Listen to him. In fact, give him a job.
    01/28/2012 12:58 PMPosted by Eldacar
    What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?


    Most of what i would have to say has been said, the CC spams especially make me feel "stun locked".

    My issue has to deal with healers and gear scaling (I assume is the cause). If i'm in a random BG with my full pvp set (outside of my pve axes from DS) and I come across a healer. After a while I can probably kill them depending on class, disc priests i usually find are impossible to beat. Point is I could beat them. Now if there are two healers there just standing at a node in AB/ AV/ BFG there is no way i can get the node since either will hit me with anything to stop me, but in return i can't kill either of them due to healing each other. This also was a problem in arena when you'd see 2 healers that will simply out heal your damage until you quit or the timer runs out.

    TL:DR - make it to where 2+ healers aren't immortal when it's 3 attacking, 3+ healers for 6 ppl, etc.

    P.S. - If you have an object in a BG that should obviously cause los (stumps in WSG cough cough, cancer death) then make them do so, you changed the placement of the GY in WSG easily enough, i don't see why a stump can't los. also please fix the shooting up and through hills thing. I can only assume this happens due to the terrain only having 1 normals direction but please find a way to fix it.
    What nice timing! i was thinking of posting a personnal feedback on BG PvP since i started PvPing again not so long ago. Here goes :

    What are your biggest PVP related quality of life issues? (Things that are an inconvenience but don't significantly affect game play or balance)


    The overreliance on instant casts. Having to continually move like a ferret with ADD when battling a melee dps.

    What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?


    Twin peaks. I like capture the flags maps. Nice balance of personnal skills, teamwork and strategies.

    What Cataclysm Arena changes/additions did you like?


    I don't do arenas. Too stressful for me.

    What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like?


    Honor <-> Justice and Conquest <- Valor conversions. Weaving some pve in your pvp can still benefit you.

    What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?


    Matchmaking system, or lack of for normal battlegrounds. Being teamed with new pvp players as a veteran doesn't feel good, and being matched against veterans as a newb definitly doesn't feel good either.

    What are your top issues with Arenas in Cataclysm?


    I don't do arenas.

    What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?


    Imbalance of faction's skills and experience depending on the server or the battlegroup. While it does not affect the possibility to gear up (since you get honor even if you lose), it makes the process longer and harsher for the losing faction, thus turning away a lot of players i'm sure. That in turn decreases the pool of well geared players for that faction and the cycle starts anew.

    What already announced Mists PVP changes/additions are you most looking forward to? (here is a summary of what is coming: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3424795794 )


    I am looking foward to base resil, more world pvp and the talent changes. Base resil will hopefully makes it easier to start PvP. Worl PvP might be an incentive for some people to consider having a reasonable pvp gear set. Talent changes especially will make pvp a lot more unpredictable.
    1) I really hope we can abandon the "arena team" model for arenas. I think that one thing RBGs have shown that each player can have his own personal rating that isn't tied to a team. In addition, it's much easier to get carried in RBGs since the one bad player being carried can get diluted among nine pros, whereas in arena it's two people carrying the one. There is nothing more frustrating to me than logging into the game, seeing my arena team not online, and realizing that I basically can't play the game I'm paying for today. Other times, two of us are online and we could just temporarily replace the other so we can play, except we don't have leader power. To make it worse, sometimes that goes on for a week before I conclude that my teammate(s) have quit playing or something and it's time to find a new team.

    2) I have to say that it is ridiculously hard to earn guild reputation as a pure pvp player. I don't understand why daily quests (done alone) award so much guild rep, yet I can hardly get any from doing BGs on my own. I even grab a couple of guildies for BGs from time to time and still get little (if any) guild rep. Honestly, I HATE doing dailies I only do them because I really want (or need) a rep reward or because I'm waiting for people to log on for arena or RBGs (see #1). Also, I know that you can get guild rep from teaming with guild mates for arena, but if you really want to get high ratings, you just can't limit your teammate search to your guild given the limitations on class/spec that you have when forming an arena team. Inevitably, you wind up with one player from another guild and you get no rep.

    3) I can't put my finger on it, but it seems to me that the guild structure just isn't working for pure pvp guilds. I joined a pvp server recently and it's been fantastic with the abundance of players on my level who are really into pvp. However, I've been miffed at how there just aren't any clearly strong pvp guilds on the server. The ones that are around are either terrible or have really mysterious recruitment policies. Maybe I got used to the way that raiding guilds recruit & retain talent (there usually is a website with an application template), but to me there just seems to be something different about how the pvp community works with respect to guilds, I can't really put my finger on it.
    This will be split into several posts, because I have a lot to say.

    1. Tol Barad

    Though in the end, Tol Barad was a relative success, at first the place was clearly not finished. The fight was tremendously in favor of defenders (and it still is somewhat, despite the changes), leading to an unenjoyable, broken experience on release. On top of that, the temporary answer to the problem was to multiply the honor rewards by ten for the attacking side, which simply led to win trading. By the time this change was implemented, no PVP happened in Tol Barad, it was just half the defenders sitting in the middle of nowhere and whining at people trying to actually defend. Not only was this the opposite of "fun", but it wrecked PVP balance by allowing everyone to get into full bloodthirsty in no time as long as they were level 85 at that time.

    If there are new open world battleground events such as Tol Barad, they need to be thoroughly tested before release. What we saw back in December 2010-January 2011 should never even have made it to release.

    On top of that, the peninsula feels tremendously underdeveloped, Rustberg village in particular. More lore would have made sense.

    Finally, the rewards were... Underwhelming. The weapons required a tremendous amount of farming and were replaced very, VERY quickly, the trinkets were subpar and too difficult to get... The only interesting rewards were the mounts, pets and enchants. Compare it with Wintergrasp which also had mounts, pets, enchants and trinkets, but armor (and new, season appropriate armor was added each season), heirlooms, JC recipes and honor tokens. And don't forget the buff your entire faction got in Northrend while holding Wintergrasp!

    In the end, so much more could have been done with Tol Barad, it's a damn shame. The dailies are nice, the PVP is better than in WG since the fight isn't centered on vehicles and the zone actually has some nice design, but it feels incredibly incomplete.
    Best changes/additions:Rated BGs are great. Twin Peaks is pretty fun bg for just wsg 2.0. Removing vengence from the equation lolblood and other tank teams were retarded to fight and should never have existed in the first place.
    Needs work: Want to see some original ideas for bgs in MoP we have enough capture the flags or guard the base type time for someone to get creativve and make something completly new up. Arenas need to be made so that people can't be globalled, steps have been made in this regard but it still could be better. Tol Borad is pretty unfun if we have another conflict zone it needs to be at the same level WG was cause wintergrasp felt like a huge war and could be commanded as such where you won with skill even when outnumbered tol barad is just runnign from base to base till the opposing team is in the wrong spot and you cap em out.
    Really hope the world pvp comes back I miss the random skirmishes when a few of the high guillds on the server got bored.
    I really don't understand the obsession people have with removing PvE gear from PvP. If anything, I'd prefer that they be more transferrable. I think the introduction of resilience forced players to choose to either PvP OR PvE. To do both (well) would require vast time investments. Perhaps that is by design, but it rubs me the wrong way.

    The resilience requirement and set bonuses inevitably pigeon-hole players into one restrictive style of play. By either adding resilience to PvE gear or by lowering the resilience on PvP gear, I think we would see a lot more diversity in the types of gear people use to PvP and the set bonuses they take advantage of. I see a lot of homogenization in WoW as a whole, and I think forcing all PvPers to wear the same gear is just an extension of that.
    01/28/2012 12:57 PMPosted by Eldacar
    Players often have BG's they don't particularly enjoy, the ability to opt-out of 2-3 maps for random queues similar to the system that exists in Starcraft 2 would be amazing


    Income for PVP:I think it would be a good idea to add some limited gold rewards to random BG's in addition to the honor awarded. Allowing players to earn a meager amount of gold from PVP would really help out the players who spend most of their time PVPing.



    These are great suggestions.
    What are your biggest PVP related quality of life issues?
    Inconsistent line of sight in the new battlegrounds versus the classic ones, channeled spells continuing to hit you through line of sight until their casts finish. Ground clutter that is hard to see (especially in Gilneas) and easy to get caught on when mounted.

    What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?
    The two new Cata BGs are my favorites thus far. I think Gilneas is a faster-paced, more enjoyable version of Arathi Basin, and Twin Peaks has a more interesting terrain layout than WSG. I enjoy BGs where water walking/path of frost/levitate are tactically useful.

    The ability to queue random BGs was a welcome change, but I think there is still too much emphasis on winning the BG for very large amounts of extra honor. Relative to the honor earned from HKs and from completing map objectives, I think it's an excessive amount, and it fuels the "let them win so we can requeue" mentality rather than encouraging players to continue competing.

    I also like the time limit in WSG and Twin Peaks. I'm not sure "last person to cap wins" actually makes sense, although I understand it's supposed to motivate people to keep playing. I do like the time limit, though, because as someone who's become much more busy in life, the ability to queue knowing that I won't end up in a BG that lasts much longer than the free time available to me is a very welcome thing. I've leaned more toward PvP than PvE since I've had less time to play, largely because there is much more certainty about the time commitment and I can BG or arena around a busy schedule.

    What Cataclysm Arena changes/additions did you like?
    Conquest points are much easier to understand now for most players, I think, and I like that the point cap for arena and RBGs and your total point cap are displayed separately from one another.

    What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like?
    I think the higher health pools and the resilience change to affect all damage done was fairly successful for most of this expansion at fixing Wrath's really frustrating feel of "global or get globaled." The craftable PvP sets updating each season is very helpful for starting a character up in PvP and keeping crafting professions viable for profit, but they also create the problem of making older pve content (dungeons and raids) obsolete, due to very powerful primary stats and the queue requirements making item level the be-all, end-all of gear.
    I like the change to elite gear that's rating-based (I haven't pursued a high arena rating since BC, and remember the heartbreaking of dropping down a few rating points short of the piece I was aiming to buy that week). While the overabundance of e-peen in this game is another matter, I think that vanity items linked to certain achievements provide enough of what people want to distinguish themselves from the pack or have others recognize their skill. If a player's high rating in arena or RBGs is because of their skill, then why do they also need access to yet-better gear, stat-wise? Tabards, mounts, titles, recolored gear all fill that role of "display your achievement" without also increasing gear disparity needlessly.
    Continuation:
    What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?
    The random BG queue really is a huge quality of life improvement, but I think some kind of matching system would really help. Others have mentioned the disparity between numbers of healers on each team, which is a much bigger factor in random pug BGs because of the difficulty of focus firing. The same goes for queueing into the Call to Arms BG for the weekend and realizing your pug is up against 3 5-person premades on the other team.

    The Call to Arms system would be greatly benefited by having 2 BGs to choose from rather than just one per weekend, as the amount of time they take to cycle is just too long now. It would help lower level players participate more often, as well. The ability to opt out of certain BGs (or have them come up much more rarely) in your random queue would also be welcome.

    The echo chamber in here regarding Strand and Isle reflects an unfortunate truth: vehicle combat BGs suffer from a dual problem of making specs with snares and spammable cc much more favorable, and having strategies that are not intuitive for new players. It's not very obvious that taking a graveyard might be a counterproductive thing, and I'm sure that new players being yelled at by their teammates for capping a node is not fun, either.
    One of the big criticisms of WoW as a whole is the lack of transparency for new players, the need to go do research on something in order to do it well. The addition of a simple interface element, like the dungeon journal, that tells you what the vehicles can do, how map objectives work, etc, would really be beneficial. There's ample time to look that over during preparation. It also seems that map objectives reward too little honor relative to the random daily win (10 times the honor bonus for winning a random AV as for staying in that bunker until it caps).

    Classes with a lot of buffs to apply on rezzing feel gimped in BGs. You cost your team extra time having to stop and use 5 globals when others need only use 1. Just make buffs persist through death in unrated PvP, like flasks.

    What are your top issues with Arenas in Cataclysm?
    Mostly just terrain issues and bugs. Being feared into a wall, my mage's water elemental going insane when on a pillar, enemy player's rings of frost disappearing if cast on a pillar and the pillar goes up, that kind of thing. I always report such bugs, but many of them seem to take a really long time to fix, and in a competitive, rated environment, that is really frustrating.

    What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?
    The disparity between a spec's viability in BGs and arena really hits some classes and specs hard. I don't play RBGs largely because my guild isn't big enough to field them, and playing a spec with very few defensive abilities, and that relies heavily on other players' support, in arena is just disheartening. I prefer to arena for conquest only because it's a smaller time commitment, but going from feeling like a key player in BGs to feeling like a free kill in arena made me not want to play my main anymore (and I play other classes in pvp for this reason).

    Damage absorption mechanics feel too powerful and hard to counter in PvP (whereas in PvE they are better balanced among healers and tanks such that those with more absorbs don't feel that much better or worse than those with more healing or avoidance).

    CC is overabundant. DR didn't end up doing enough, but rather making comps with non-DRing cc ever more powerful. Being taken out of the match entirely as you watch your teammates die is not fun. Furthermore, while getting cced the first time might be a matter of skill, every time you get cced after that (because you got cced the first time and are now fair game for everything they can throw at you) does not test your skill as a player at all. It's just not fun and makes everyone feel like they need even more cc to compete. As someone else in this thread mentioned, please "reset the arms race."

    What already announced Mists PVP changes/additions are you most looking forward to?
    I think the talent trees are on exactly the right track. I'm sure there's more fine tuning to be done, but having REAL choices among the same genre of talents is exactly what I want to see. No-brainers being baked into specs makes sense, because they're not choices at all to begin with. I especially like this relative to PvP, because I feel like it will open things up for some specs who have traditionally had very few choices in terms of mitigating damage or controlling opponents in PvP.
    I really don't understand the obsession people have with removing PvE gear from PvP. If anything, I'd prefer that they be more transferrable. I think the introduction of resilience forced players to choose to either PvP OR PvE. To do both (well) would require vast time investments. Perhaps that is by design, but it rubs me the wrong way.

    The resilience requirement and set bonuses inevitably pigeon-hole players into one restrictive style of play. By either adding resilience to PvE gear or by lowering the resilience on PvP gear, I think we would see a lot more diversity in the types of gear people use to PvP and the set bonuses they take advantage of. I see a lot of homogenization in WoW as a whole, and I think forcing all PvPers to wear the same gear is just an extension of that.


    I think there are two things going on with the pve/pvp gear situation.

    1) You should be able to jump into pvp in full pve gear and not get completely destroyed in a global. Right now, with no resilience, that isn't possible. Likewise, you should be able to hop into a raid with your full pvp gear and pvp spec and not be a complete drag on the group. Again, with so little dps stats on pvp gear, you can't do that.

    2) If a player were to compose his ideal set of gear for pvp from anything in the game, it should be completely made up of gear obtained through pvp. Right now, that is not the case as there are a few pve items (particularly trinkets and weapons) that add enough damage/healing to outweigh the benefits of the lost resilience. This one is actually a one-way street right now, nobody says "we can't take him on our raid because he didn't get his pvp trinket".
    2. The grinding

    Right now, in order to have an actual PVP experience which doesn't boil down to "Someone looks at me and I die", you need a minimum of 3000 resilience. That's a lot of PVP gear. On top of that, melee classes, which are extremely dependent on their weapon for their viability, require the use of nothing less than a ruthless weapon in order to be competitive. Now, let's do some math:

    Assume you win every single BG you go in, all the time, forever. In ten minutes, each time. You get around 350 honor per BG. Now, in order to get a full PVP set, you need to farm 26850 honor. Now, divided by 350 honor, that's 76 BG victories. 10 minutes pet victory = 760 minutes = 12 hours 40 minutes.

    Now, understand this. If you were to instantly get queued, never have to wait for the BG to start (no preparation time), always win and never take more than ten minutes to win, it would still take you over twelve hours and a half of BGing to get a full honor set. The truth is, adding in the farming you have to do to buy gems and enchants and gold for repairs and the queue time and the prep time and the fact that you sometimes get 20 minute matches and the fact that you don't always win, the true game time is closer to 40 hours.

    40 hours to be able to actually experience PVP as anything more than dying in two seconds when someone looks at you is a damn long time, and there's no reason for it to be. Not only is this ridiculously excessive, it's not even fair. On this paladin, I have a nearly full PVE set after less than 10 hours of dungeons and raids, and that's despite the fact that I converted my justice points into honor and valor points into conquest points. And while I was getting that set, I wasn't wiping over and over and over and over again. I could actually experience PVE, it's just that my gear wasn't as good.

    I understand that gear can't just be handed out for free, but there's certainly a middle ground somewhere between "mail a full PVP set to the character at level 85" and "spend 40 hours getting pounded into the ground before actually enjoying the PVP scene".
    If you are unsure how best to write it all down, here is a feedback template you can use:


    •What are your biggest PVP related quality of life issues? (Things that are an inconvenience but don't significantly affect game play or balance)

    Transition from "fresh 85" or from "returning back to WoW PvP" and being thoroughly punished and walked all over until you have sufficient resil gear. It's no fun to be "gear owned" and be of little use to your team until you have farmed the gear for a couple of weeks. It's just painful. Gear matters too much in PvP as it is and this period of time is particularly egregious.

    Lack of an ACCESSIBLE "semi-competitive" experience. RBG's are a welcome addition to the game but on my old server, there was very little opportunity for RBG teams. The other thing is a lot of RBG teams are run in a way that it excludes people if you are not "the right class/spec". My girlfriend was shadow priest, I was a hunter... but our guild just wanted a "tank" to hold the flag. Other RBG teams were dominated by 16 year old boys and we just didn't want to join the "brostorm" to "roflstomp". It would have been nice to been able to join a "competitive" random-but-rated battleground where we could have found other semi-competitive people that played to win but also played for fun and didn't need to "stack the team" with favored class/specs for their own aggrandizement.

    I don't notice it as much these days but one of the worst things that used to ruin my BG experience are bots and farmers that don't actually try to win but just siphon honor of those of us who do. It seems better these days as most people actually try to win, which I think is because winning awards conquest points. Even though I think it is improved it's such a huge issue, Blizz needs to be ever vigilant and so I mentioned it here.

    I also hate how now that I'm almost a strict PvP'er, the game makes you poor. I would like to be able to earn all the gear, gems, and enchants I need in order to PvP through PvP in a manner that is equitable with time spent as if I was PvE'ing. Sure, Blizz can say "well, we want you to experience the whole game". To which I'd say, sure! But Blizz, you didn't make end game PvE very compelling for me. For years, all you did was reserve compelling PvE gameplay for organized raid guilds. For some reason, you never seemed to notice that most of us didn't actually raid competitively even though most of your game tweaks were aimed at the minority who did. Boring repetitive dailies weren't good enough. On this character, for money, I pick flowers and sell them on the AH...that's what this mighty hunter was reduced to :(

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