Cataclysm PVP Feedback

Battlegrounds
Post Limit:
Prev 1 12 13 14 57 Next
3. Damage too high, healing too high

Right now, we have two very frustrating situations in PVP:

a) You get attacked by a rogue/mage/feral druid and die before being able to hit them back.
b) You attack a healer and they don't even notice.

It was stated that a goal in Cataclysm PVP was to increase the duration of fights, to make it so characters "spend more time wounded", as in you don't either die instantly or live forever. Right now, the situation is even worse than in LK and BC. The healers may have healed way too hard back then, but at least, by the end of the expansion cycle, you weren't dying in a rogue's stuns. That is no longer the case, and it's bad. Some say it's an arms race, where DPS hits too hard so heals have to heal that hard and vice versa, but I'm gonna go ahead and say what I really think the problem is:

We have raid bosses that demand such numbers, and when those numbers are translated to PVP, resilience just makes sure it's not one shot heaven. Healers need to heal that hard for raids and DPS need to hit that hard for raids. As in, to me, it feels like raid designers are completely ignoring the impact their decisions will have on the PVP game. Vial of Shadows is just another example of that, a trinket which is obviously fine for PVE yet is also obviously tremendously OP for PVP. It was made with complete disregard for the PVP scene.

Ergo, I think the solution to this problem would be greater communication between whoever designs raids and whoever takes care of PVP. Maybe I'm wrong, in fact I'm probably wrong, but I'd rather state it and be wrong than not say it, be right and let the current situation continue.
I can only play WoW for so many hours in a week and the decoupled PVE and PVP gearing processes turn me off to PVP.

Please get rid of resilience.
4. Battlegrounds

People may complain that Twin Peaks and Battle For Gilneas were nothing but copy-pastes, but I disagree. That's like saying Icecrown Citadel was a copy-paste of Deadmines because you fought bosses in both dungeons. So, good job, I love those two battlegrounds.

However, there are still quite a few issues I have right now. First of all, I have no clue why you would have Arathi Basin and Eye of the Storm in the rated BG rotation. Both of those were clearly designed around 15-man teams and just don't work in 10vs10. Either add a 15vs15 bracket or remove them from the rated BG rotation, please.

Second of all, about random BGs... Please, please, please, PLEASE remove AV and IoC from the possible choices. It seems it's nearly all we get and it's awful, especially since both of those battlegrounds present some of the worst PVP I have ever experienced.

Finally, if you ever design another BG with vehicles in it, don't make the vehicles the focus of the fight. They should be something you want to grab to give yourself an edge, not something you NEED to either grab or destroy to win. Make them more like the sprint, berserker and restoration buffs.

That's the last point I can think of for now.
01/30/2012 08:38 AMPosted by Lightwrath
As in, to me, it feels like raid designers are completely ignoring the impact their decisions will have on the PVP game.


That's always been Blizzard's response to PvPers. "This is a PvE game and is balanced around PvE." Read: "QQ"
I can only play WoW for so many hours in a week and the decoupled PVE and PVP gearing processes turn me off to PVP.

Please get rid of resilience.


PVP without resilience then. Wait, you die instantly? Then why are you asking them to remove resilience?
01/30/2012 08:44 AMPosted by Hoozier
As in, to me, it feels like raid designers are completely ignoring the impact their decisions will have on the PVP game.


That's always been Blizzard's response to PvPers. "This is a PvE game and is balanced around PvE." Read: "QQ"


It was the response in Vanilla and BC, and they've made it clear they want to focus MoP on the PVP aspect of the game, so maybe it's time to actually discuss this.

On top of that, IMHO, it was a grave mistake they made to try and make WoW so centered around PVE when the entire franchise up to this game has been about alliance VS horde.
1. Tol Barad.
a. I loved Tol Barad, denying flying mounts in the questing zones brought back World PvP because they couldn't just AFK in the sky, run from you, or go from point A to B while avoiding players, mobs, and the time it takes to travel on foot. Traveling on foot in a flagged zone gives so much more depth to suspense in PvP. Like in AION, a game where flying is limited to certain zones (with a LIMIT on how long you can fly), they even made a new zone, Balaura(?), where it is ground only.

b. Another point was the event of Tol Barad itself. It unlocked dailies which made people NEED to take it. Wintergrasp was alright, but the vehicles detached from character combat. Just like Halaa, it gave a reward that was fun and enjoyable. Halaa died when flying mounts became more available.


2. Humans. While I do LOVE humans, if you play Alliance you would be stupid to not get another trinket slot for free. And it's a 2 minute trinket at the get go. I really enjoy the other races, but choosing them could gimp me in the long run if I'm trying to min/max for PvP.

3. Low Level Scaling. I enjoy the leveling process of a new character, and find low level battlegrounds fun, if you don't count the scaling. There are certain classes at low levels that can really make everyones BG experience a pain. You are almost required to have constant upkeep of your gear if you even wish to survive their opening. And even at this level there are no tools or help from friends that can withstand the initial burst. Players without heirlooms are basically fodder, their health is so low they can't even fully be effective in a battleground.

I kept classes out of this one, but #3 is just a reminder to please remember the Low Level PvPers as well. No one learns their class nor learns how to defend from one shotting or being one shot itself.

4. Flying Mounts, World PvP, and The Community.
A community is crucial for any game, its what keeps the players together, its what keeps them playing. Friends! Allies! Playing together, laughing together, making memories. The community is struggling because:

a. The world is dead. I cannot count how many times I've leveled a character, questing or gathering materials, and see how empty the world is. I don't even see the opposite faction out there. And on the rare occasion that I do, it's not even for the zones level. It's an AFK 85, or an 85 doing something else (or just fly by). How can one build a community from an empty world? Ever since Flying Mounts and/or Guild Levels, you have a much harder time building that community. The majority are only wanting the benefits; Level 25 Guild, or flying as fast as they can above everything to the next daily location. Most new guilds are put together from spam invites, or ads in the forums. It takes much longer to build one these days.

b. Flying Mounts. Going to be some redundancy here, but this has also contributed to the empty world and lack of PvP. Everyone sits inside their comfy town, leveling/pvping on Queues, never having to move from their safe unflagged zone. Need to go somewhere? Fly. Someone trying to fight you in the sky? Just move away and let them slowfall down. Keep flying, no more PvP. Don't want to be ganked? Fly really high and park there.

5. Southshore.
Hillsbrad was one of the favorite zones of many for many years, for many reasons. At least everyday there was an epic fight in the fields between Tarren Mill and Southshore. It was one of the few places where it was a fun little venture. I'm sure there are lore reasons behind this, but did it specifically have to be Southshore? I do not understand removing such a fun spot from the game.

6. Sanctuaries
While I do enjoy their concept (Horde and Alliance forced to being non-violent in a specific town), it encourages fleeing and hiding there. Just like the main cities, many people would AFK there without any fear of being maimed. This led to a majority of the population resting there, leaving the world empty.

7. Guards
Please, stop making them so strong. If people do not wish to PvP, they should not roll on a PvP server. There should be no reason for people complaining about having their Auction Housing interrupted (with the exception of griefing) on a PvP server. We WANT to be attacked. We WANT to defend our cities! Leave the guards weak, but bring back Elite Guards that spawn, but only after a certain amount of time or x guards slain. It is fun attacking and being attacked. Right now no one can do anything but dive bomb into the leaders room to score the achievement then leave. The guards are too excessive/strong to hang around there.

Booty Bay Event was a good idea and a start. Unfortunately on my server only one faction showed up in swarm and picked off any other opposing faction that trickled in. Maybe an incentive to control Booty Bay would keep them coming.
Earning conquest points and acquiring gear by doing BG’s has been helpful. It makes it possible to be competitive. I know that the PVP community has been trying to get more people involved in arenas and Rated Battle Grounds. I am not new at PVP at all but would like to do Rated Battle Grounds on a regular base. One problem I see is getting on a team. You have to know somebody or be in a guild that focuses on PVP/PVE or just PVP alone. Basically you have to depend on somebody else. Before you know it you fall behind in achieving a rating that can keep up with the competition. Will Random Rated Battle Grounds be the answer? Is that possible?
I'm going to focus on Arenas for the most part. I don't do rated BGs and the random system is mostly alright. CP from randoms was a great addition, I'll say, and I like the idea of opting out of 1-2 maps mentioned by others. The only other thing I'd say is let us get our "daily" CP boost from randoms all in one go like you can with VP in Heroics. It's basically the exact same dilemma, if I want to try to cap out like that, to get max benefit I have to login and win a bg each day? What if I can't play every day? We had this exact conversation about pve 6 months ago.

What I liked About Cata Arenas:
- The resilience change to flat damage reduction. It just makes more sense/less complicated.

- The MMR reset last season. This should happen every season. It encourages more participation at season start and reduces rating inflation.

- Built in arena frames/no distance limits on targetting.

- Using rogues as an example, I liked that moves were made to make them LESS cooldown dependent and compensated with added sturdiness. This should be the pvp design goal for every class. The window for allowing skill to determine outcomes needs a little widening.

What I didn't like in Cata Arenas:

-If 2v2 arenas don't matter (balance-wise) then shortening the draw timer for it shouldn't matter either. 45 minutes is a long time to determine something I can usually guess at about ~7 minutes in. (read: the paladins have bubbled twice and no one has momentum)

-As several others have said, CC is a little, for lack of a better word, out of control. I wonder if there has been thought to just combine all "loss of control" effects into the same DR category. Again as others have said, it NEEDS to be an important choice of when to use. Not just spammed. Although such a change might just result in spamming anyway, just less often. In that case, it would indicate a more systemic breakdown I imagine. Control as a whole needs to be lessened. I think some of this will be accomplished in the talent redesign, particularly for mages. Much of this was caused by power creep. There's just so many buttons for everyone that layer upon layer of control is where we ended up. Less control isn't necessarily equivalent to less skill. I could point you to LoL where every "class" has a total of 4 abilities and yet, competition is still fierce and "meta" such as positioning and synergy is still very deep.

-Not to pick on priests, but esoteric mechanics like mind control and mana burn ought to be looked at. They are both unique spells that no other class can simulate/duplicate, which additionally don't even have a place in pve content at the moment. It is silly to try to balance around them as they are not a "major" part of the pvp game, so I imagine they would not be overly missed either. Priests could be compensated with utility more in line with general game design. Gouge also fits into this category, though I don't feel rogues would need compensation.

-Every Man For Himself was a great idea. It just needs to be given to everyone. It was already assumed for competitive pvp that you had to have a pvp trinket. Only dispel cleave really works without it. If it is assumed, just give it to everyone and let us make more interesting choices on trinket selection. Heck, this would give you reason to give us more interesting trinket selections rather than on use +power or proc +power.

-Snare disparity. Movement in pvp is obviously integral. Limiting opponent's movement is thus that much more important. Its why everyone gets their +15% speed talent (which oddly only a few classes don't get) or enchants their boots. So why is it that some classes have snares that are better than others? The point should be using snares intelligently, not relying on a snare that outpaces your opponent's. If I can snare you 50% but you can only snare me 40%, what's the point of yours? What's the point of mine? We could have no snares and just have everyone run at 50% all the time. I'm not going to go and say that frostbolts and hamstring should both be 50% snares, because obviously with one being ranged, that's not equal in power. But when crippling poison and hamstring both have the same duration, both apply in melee, but one is almost 50% better than the other, something isn't right.

-Interrupts and dispels. It has already been mentioned that Blizzard is looking to reduce the impact of these mechanics. Of making them less spammy and more decisive. I just want to reiterate how good of an idea that is. I would be fine with just putting a DR on interrupts combined with silences. Unless they snuck in an interrupt dr already without me noticing. Offensive and defensive dispelling is mindless, as well. A change to these systems would be welcomed.

That's all I've got without going (any further) into more specific class centric feedback. Oh, and get rid of pve weapons and trinkets in pvp.

However, there are still quite a few issues I have right now. First of all, I have no clue why you would have Arathi Basin and Eye of the Storm in the rated BG rotation. Both of those were clearly designed around 15-man teams and just don't work in 10vs10. Either add a 15vs15 bracket or remove them from the rated BG rotation, please.


Having these as 10 v 10 completely works. It adds in the layer of "CC Capping", which is another tactical element you have to be mindful of (who to D which nodes, who to send out as a CC team to take that node, which node to zerg to pull their manpower while you try to CC cap something).

While they may be designed as 15 v 15, remember that they were launched for normal BGs. In RBGs, we don't need to allocate people to fight on roads or gys... the people actually properly playing a normal BG is well less than 10 people. :P


However, there are still quite a few issues I have right now. First of all, I have no clue why you would have Arathi Basin and Eye of the Storm in the rated BG rotation. Both of those were clearly designed around 15-man teams and just don't work in 10vs10. Either add a 15vs15 bracket or remove them from the rated BG rotation, please.


Having these as 10 v 10 completely works. It adds in the layer of "CC Capping", which is another tactical element you have to be mindful of (who to D which nodes, who to send out as a CC team to take that node, which node to zerg to pull their manpower while you try to CC cap something).

While they may be designed as 15 v 15, remember that they were launched for normal BGs. In RBGs, we don't need to allocate people to fight on roads or gys... the people actually properly playing a normal BG is well less than 10 people. :P


CC capping is still a factor in 15vs15, and the fact that Arathi Basin has 5 nodes completely changes the way AB works in 10vs10. in 15vs15, once you control three nodes, it's smart to keep on the aggressive side to force the enemy on the defensive. in 10vs10, you can't do that without leaving a base defenseless, turning the game into a mind numbing tug of war.

CC capping is still a factor in 15vs15, and the fact that Arathi Basin has 5 nodes completely changes the way AB works in 10vs10. in 15vs15, once you control three nodes, it's smart to keep on the aggressive side to force the enemy on the defensive. in 10vs10, you can't do that without leaving a base defenseless, turning the game into a mind numbing tug of war.


Well, you only have 3 AB RBGs under your belt. I thoroughly enjoy 10 man AB RBGs. It is hardly ever a mind numbing tug of war. In fact, it is the one RBG map where you constantly have to be on your toes and react fast since movement/events can happen quite fast.
I know Blizzard has mentioned this once or twice in passing before without realizing the significance of it, but they've really gone too far in the arms races of various tools in PvP.

Instant casts vs interrupts, gap closers vs gap creaters, damage cooldowns vs defensive cooldowns, etc. When one side gets an ability, the other side gets another to match it which leads to a lot of problems.

They've also seriously missed on the number balancing which makes PvP feel really awkward. There are points where damage seems so insanely high, and other points where it feels impossible to land a kill. Resilience is reducing player damage by over 40% right now which is crazy to think about how far they were off on the numbers between PvE and PvP as well.

If I could fit it all into one post I could go into great detail, but to be brief I'll just say they need to take a hard look at top-level TBC arena videos and get back to some of those foundations (obviously ignoring specific class balance).

But for now, off the top of my head:

-Damage and healing should steadily move a health bar in either direction, not bounce it up and down wildly. Multiple things causing this, like global 200% crits, every class being able to spam abilities now rather than having to wait for white attacks/cooldowns, the two (now three) ilvl tiers per major patch scaling things so fast, etc.

-Casters should actually have to cast. As more classes have gotten interrupts, Blizzard has made it so healers/caster dps can get by largely with instant and uncounterable spells. Poor decision I think. If you have to increase the cooldowns on both interrupts and instant casts, so be it, but casting needs to be the primary source of dps and heals for casters.

-Mana should be a finite resource. Mana classes very rarely go oom in Cata, and when they do, it doesn't mean much due to high regen/low mana costs. Too many times have I seen oom healers keep their teams up as if they were at 100%. I know you tried to do it this expansion, but you underestimated gear scaling. Make mana matter again. And delete mana burn in the process.

-Players should actually have to walk places for periods, not get everywhere through the 100 different "blink" spells. It used to be just intercept and blink, but over the years there have been seemingly countless different blink abilities added to the game that get you to or away from a target. When you said "kiting" you used to mean using careful character movement and positioning to keep your enemy at bay, now kiting has been reduced to "do I have blink, disengage, etc. up?" This is a good example of where the arms race between classes, plus too much homogenization, have made arena feel silly.

-Players should have to press buttons to apply slows/snares, and those snares need to be closer to each other in strength. Sometimes it feels like there is an aura when you zone into arena that says -70% movement speed due to all the auto-applied slows. This is largely why warriors cannot stay on a target as hamstring is a 50% manually applied snare in a world of auto applied 70% snares, so everyone simply walks away after charge.

-There needs to be less aoe healing. Right now with so much random aoe healing, it makes intended splash damage useless and promotes tunneling one target for extensive periods. It used to be you could either (a) ride one target, (b) split targets, or (c) purposely get a secondary target somewhat low while on a main target, then have the option to swap to the second target while he's dipping to create pressure. With so much aoe healing, only option A is left. Arena has become purely about single-target damage due to aoe healing.

-There also needs to be a lot less self-healing from dps classes. I know self-healing is nice for leveling and soloing and PvE, but in arena it's way over the top for some classes. They need to be toned down significantly.
What I like: easiness of obtaining pvp gear through BGs.

What I don't like: Tolbarad does not flag people when a battle is not happening(pve server). Back in LK, the moment you zone into WG you get flagged even on pve servers. please bring it back because pvp zones should be a 24/7 pvp zone and not just during battle. It was fun going to wintergrasp just for some random world pvp even when the battle was not happening.

TLDR: (pve servers) please make pvp zones flag people 24/7 even when a battle is not active

Thank you.

CC capping is still a factor in 15vs15, and the fact that Arathi Basin has 5 nodes completely changes the way AB works in 10vs10. in 15vs15, once you control three nodes, it's smart to keep on the aggressive side to force the enemy on the defensive. in 10vs10, you can't do that without leaving a base defenseless, turning the game into a mind numbing tug of war.


Well, you only have 3 AB RBGs under your belt. I thoroughly enjoy 10 man AB RBGs. It is hardly ever a mind numbing tug of war. In fact, it is the one RBG map where you constantly have to be on your toes and react fast since movement/events can happen quite fast.


I'm going to point out that this isn't my only character, but most importantly, that's probably just a matter of taste then.
The single biggest thing I dislike about the state of cataclysm is the lack of world pvp. Nobody goes out into the world anymore. I fly around zones looking for people to gank and the areas are almost completely unpopulated.
01/30/2012 08:17 AMPosted by Hoozier
I really don't understand the obsession people have with removing PvE gear from PvP. If anything, I'd prefer that they be more transferrable. I think the introduction of resilience forced players to choose to either PvP OR PvE. To do both (well) would require vast time investments. Perhaps that is by design, but it rubs me the wrong way.


290 ilevel gear, 0 arenas, and 14 total BGs played. You either have essentially no PvP experience, or you're hiding your main who is probably benefitting from PvE gear already in PvE, or a raider who wants to get a PvP advantage like at the end of Vanilla wow without putting in the time that PvP'ers do.

I have no problem with people wanting what they want, but I think hiding behind an alt is disingenuous.
Get pve gear out of pvp for god's sake.

Also, a look needs to be taken @ the so-called "control" specs. Specs like this should not rival the damage/survivability of specs with very limited control, for obvious reasons.

Join the Conversation