Dev Watercooler – The Role of Role

General Discussion
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I'm a fan of Vanilla. It was unbalanced. An affliction lock could handle 3 mobs at a time while leveling, while a warrior (ANY kind of warrior) would die if he pulled even one mob at half health.

Hunters had to get ammo and feed their pets. Shamans had to buy ankhs for reincarnation (no glyphs) and Horde had Shamans and Alliance had Paladins.

If you wanted to tank you roll'd a warrior. If you wanted to heal you roll'd a priest. Hybrid classes offered more utility but less DPS. Pure classes did one thing great but only that one thing.

There was very little balance. And yet it was the most interesting, creative and fun time of the game. This is before cookie-cutter specs. When talents were actually up to the player. Now, we can go to Noxxic.com and learn how to play a class within 15 minutes.

The problem is when you "balance" and "homogenize" things you also make them boring and bland. There is no more flavor to this game. But people !@#$% if their class isn't on top and Blizzard inevitably caves to keep the masses placated. However, I'll take a controversial viewpoint, and argue that the people often times do not know what is in their best interest. They simple cry for "fairness" when what they're really asking for is to make their characters better so they don't have to work as hard. I gladly roll'd a warrior to level in Vanilla because it was hard! And it was fun for me. There is no hard class to level anymore and that sucks.

Classes SHOULD feel different. A hunter having to feed his pet was part of the fun of being a hunter. If you don't like it, roll a different freaking class. Part of the fun of being a Pally was bubbling and hearthing. If you don't like it, roll a different freaking class. There was something for everyone, but not everything for everyone. And that's a good thing. The class you picked represented your personality. Now, every class feels and play the same, for the most part, and if it goes further in that direction I think the game will have fallen victim to theorycrafting at the expense of flavor and unique gameplay.

One of the biggest problems Blizzard faces with advancing level caps and more and more expansions is to keep the game accesible to new customers while keeping old ones happy. However, the game has tilted way too far in the direction of new customers, IMHO. Why do you think leveling has become so easy? Why do you think you get a mount at level 20 now? Why do you think you get 20 gold per quest? It's so new customers can catch up to old customers in a matter of weeks instead of a year. However, it also cheapens the experience for those that have gone through the grind of Vanilla and BC and waited until 40 to buy a mount and knew the experience of having to eat food between mob fights to regen health.

I know things will never go back to Vanilla, I just don't want things to continue going to "everything is equal, even if it means everything is boring". Because boring = I'm going to go play Star Wars.
^ Amen.
I'm happy to see this topic dusted off. I've been playing since vanilla and I can honestly say that it's a toss up between vanilla and BC of which is my favorite. I love the necessity of utility classes to make a strong synergy but the cost that comes with that is a huge burden. It is/was a burden to the leaders of the guild/raid to find the people that didn't mind being a support/buff class. Not to mention the people that played those classes often expected special treatment which still happens in some cases.
I believe the key to keeping WoW interesting and on top is to keep changing it, that's what keeps me coming back. However, I would love to one day see pvp and pve separate entities entirely. I know it's hard to make a class capable of 50k/dps in a raid yet tone it down for pvp. Same with tanks that take 3 or more players to kill them yet they posses very similar burst damage as dps classes. But, I also don't want to see the game get too basic. One of the aspects I love about WoW is the constant evolution and change that comes with the ability to understand the complexity of how all the mechanics work. I don't want it too complicated but neither too vanilla.
Overall I'm happy with the way things are but maybe crunch vanilla and bc together to come up with something new!

*edit
btw, I really like what Fishroyalty wrote. Well put, well put!
Hello all,
This is going to be a break down of each class, and each spec within that class, and how it feels to me, as well as how I feel things should go for that spec. We will start off with clothies, and work our way up to plate. Keep in mind, this is my opinion only, and nothing more.

One more thing before I continue, armor should mean something, cloth=low health, plate=high health. For numbers visualization, let us do this.
lvl 85, full 378 ilvl geared, cloth=120,000hp, leather=145,000hp, mail=170,000hp, plate=200,000hp. Large difference in health, but also, the lower the health, the more dps they can do, higher health, less dps.
Again, for numbers visualization, lets do this again.
cloth=40,000dps, leather=32,500dps, mail=25,000dps, plate=17,500dps. All decent numbers, but an obvious change between.

Let us recap our numbers,
Cloth=120,000HP with 40,000DPS
Leather=145,000HP with 32,500DPS
Mail=170,000HP with 25,000DPS
Plate=200,000HP with 17,500DPS

These are not hard numbers, just a base set of numbers to give an idea of how things should be closer to in regards to health and DPS. Of course, these are just dps specs, tanks of course would have higher health and lower dps, and heals would have slightly lower health, but can heal them selves.

Now, on to the breakdown of each class and spec.

Clothies, you have priests, mages, and warlocks.

Let us start with Priests first,
Under priests talents you have, Holy, Discipline, and Shadow. Let us begin with Holy.

Holy Priests,
I feel that a holy priest is designed as a healer, but not just of health, also of curses and diseases. Therefor they become not only a healer, but also a utility spec. As a healer, they always felt more of a mass healer than a single target healer.

Discipline Priests,
I feel that a discipline priest is designed as a healer, with very few other options to them, pretty much pure heals. As the pure heals, they feel like a tank heals, or possible a small area healer. I personally have slight issues with Power word shield, I feel that for discipline priests it prevents way to much damage to be more than a, "Ha ha, you can't touch me, nener nener nener!", of course this is my opinion, nothing more.

Shadow Priests,
DPS spec all the way, all about constant steams of negative energy. Personally, it does very well at this, I think its dps should be upped because they do wear cloth, and health should go down, WAY down. See earlier in post for reasoning and breakdown of numbers.

Let us continue with Mages.
Under mage talents you have, Frost, Arcane, and Fire. I will start with Frost.

Frost Mages.
I see a frost mage as someone to blasts you with ice and cold wind to slow you down, keep you in place, while they unleash a super nuke that takes forever to cast, but does MASSIVE damage per hit. Pretty much what they do now.

Arcane Mage,
I see an arcane mage as someone to has lots of hard hitting instant cast spells with cool-downs. They burst hard and fast, but then have to wait a moment to do it again. Arcane is also where I would put the utility part, due to all magic really being considered the arcane arts.

Fire Mage,
These pyros would be the cross between frost and arcane, lots of faster casting spells, with low cool-downs that do pretty decent damage, these would be your sustained firepower mages.

Next we have Warlocks.
Under warlock talents you have, Affliction, Demonology, and Destruction. We will begin with Affliction.

Affliction Warlock,
These annoying people are all about the dots, they run around screaming More dots more dots more dots. They have the demon pet to keep people at bay while they slam mass amounts of dots on you.

Demonology Warlock,
Who doesn't like having demon pets? These guys should do nothing but fortify their pet with fel energy, casting a damaging spell at the enemy only at the right time. The pet is your best weapon here.

Destruction Warlock,
Most would see these as some kind of strange fire mage, not true, a fire mage would use pure fire, a destruction warlock would use fire AND brimstone, so flaming rocks, meteors, lava bursting from under your feet, stuff that destroys everything it touches....quickly. As for the pet, same thing as Affliction, keep them away from master so master can go bang bang.

That is how I see our clothies, each has their own feel and play style. On to leather now.

Leather wearers, Druid and Rogue. (soon to be monk as well)

I'm going to start with Druid.

Druids,
You have 3, soon to be 4 talents under druids, Balance, Restoration, and Feral(with guardian being added in for MOP)

Balance Druids,
These are the Boomers, Moonkin, Boomkin, giant chickens, whatever you wanna call them. These guys hit hard, and fast with spells. Only problem I see here....to much armor for what they can deal out in damage. Especially since they have some ability to heal as well.

Restoration Druids,
HoT, HoT, HoT. These healing druids are all about the HoTs. Of course for burst damage they can do burst healing when the need arises. Hence tree form cool-down. Personally I liked the perma tree-form but it makes sense with HoTs to have it as a cool-down.

Feral Druids,
Here kitty kitty kitty, to me, this is all about being as cunning as Scar, and as strong as Mufasa. A sneaky type that can pounce and burst hard, with some decent sustained damage. Although, I personally would trade the AE damage for faster energy regeneration(talent idea maybe?)

Guardian Druid,
Going to go ahead and touch on this, at least for completeness purposes.
Bear form goes here. Guardian druids are all about take large hits, shrugging off the damage, and then hitting hard and slow. I mean come on, most bears can take a bullet to the forehead and it will just bounce off due to the angle of the bone.

Now off to Rogues....oh I mean Rouges....WAIT....which is it again?
Under Rogues, you have Assassination, Subtlety, and Combat.

Assassination Rogues,
Personally, an Assassination rogue should burst out of stealth, hit hard and fast, then vanish and wait a moment then do it again. Notice anything here? Yea, they have Sub and Assassin mixed up name wise.

Subtlety Rogues,
These guys and gals should be all about poison, I mean was is Subtlety anyway? First off let us define Subtlety, (dictionary.com for source)

noun, plural -ties.
1. the state or quality of being subtle.
2. delicacy or nicety of character or meaning.
3. acuteness or penetration of mind; delicacy of discrimination.
4. a fine-drawn distinction; refinement of reasoning: the subtleties of logic.
5. something subtle.

Now, because it mentions Subtle twice, let us define that as well,

adjective, -tler, -tlest.
1. thin, tenuous, or rarefied, as a fluid or an odor.
2. fine or delicate in meaning or intent; difficult to perceive or understand: subtle irony.
3. delicate or faint and mysterious: a subtle smile.
4. requiring mental acuteness, penetration, or discernment: a subtle philosophy.
5. characterized by mental acuteness or penetration: a subtle understanding.

Me personally, I see that more as a poison master than a vanish in and out person. But that is my opinion anyway. Yes, vanishing in and out is subtle as well, but Assassins seem more of that to me so that would put poisons under Sub and still fit the name.

Combat Rogue,
These guys I feel are all wrong. Yes, they can get an armor boost from leather now, big improvement I feel, but they are all about walking up to that fury warrior, going toe to toe, and winning just because that fury warrior couldn't land a blow. Combat rogues, hit hard, fast, and dodge and parry like mad. Yes, possible tank here, but, rogues tanking....no no no, just shouldn't happen, unless combat rogues can talent into wearing mail, and that would just make hunters mad cause now they are fighting for gear.(Personal 2nd favorite class/spec right here, love my combat rogue, not as happy with cata, but loved back in BC and wrath.)

Ok, I could add monk, but we don't really know enough of how they play do say anything about them at the moment.

Off to mail, Hunters and Shamans.

Hunters are first,
The three talents under hunters are, Marksman, Survival, and Beast Mastery.

Marksman Hunters,
Long range one shot snipers, that is how I see them. Personally if they can go with out a pet for increased damage, it would make them closer to how I see them. Lose the pet for increased damage, would be wonderful setup for them.

Survival Hunters,
Traps and pets to keep everyone away while the pet, traps and damage pours in. Not much to them.

Beast Mastery Hunters,
Exotic pets that work wonders in all situations is how I see these hunters. An Exotic pet should be something worth having, they can do more than a normal pet, either through talents or the pets themselves. The pet is pretty powerful, but that means the hunter doesn't really do a whole lot like the other hunters.

Now, the plate, Paladins, Warriors, and Death Knights.

Paladins first,
Paladins can be Holy, Retribution, and Protection.

Holy Paladins,
I see Holy Paladins as Tank healers and scaring away undead or demons, or destroying them with holy energy. Now, I say tank healers because I don't see a holy pally being able to heal a whole group of people(talking raids here), but instead being able to heal just a couple of people really well. As for the undead and demons, pretty obvious I think, they focus on using that holy magic to heal, why not try to heal an undead or demon and instead it do damage?

Retribution Paladins,
These guys are about filling themselves with divine wrath, and unleashing it on their foes. Lots of dps upping cool-downs and decent sustained damage without. Not much here.

Protection Paladins,
This is how I think of paladins no matter what game they are in, weapon and shield, they use holy energy to keep themselves alive longer, and do decent damage. They are tanks, nothing wrong here.

Warriors next,
Warriors can be Arms, Fury, or Protection.

Arms Warrior,
I see these guys as master of weapons, all melee weapons. 1 handers, 2 handers, doesn't matter, they know them all well, and can fight with any combination well. Decent dps, and decent dodge parry, but no damage mitigation for when they do get hit. Using a 2 hander, or wielding two 1 handers, doesn't matter, should be about the same dps.

Fury Warrior,
These are the "Berserkers". They rush into battle, weapons swinging like mad, and when they hit, they hit HARD. Of course, they don't care about getting hit, they are in a rage.

Protection Warrior.
Masters of the Shield, try to block everything and hit with melee weapon, only when they can safely. Such a high mastery of the shield, they have learned to return spells back and make weapon strikes against the shield completely painless. That is how I see them, not much different than now.

And finally we have,

Death Knights
Death Knights can be Blood, Frost, or Unholy.

Blood Death Knights,
I see these guys as kinda vampiric, they take power from blood. They absorb health from their enemies to continue where others would fall. Personally, two 1 handers would be nice, just because of tank weapons being 1 handers. I'd rather have two tank 1 handers than a 1 hander and shield, or a 2 hander. I'd rather lose 2 hander talents for 1 hander talents for a change, a duel wielding tank is out of the normal idea box for wow, was nice to have that choice, druids have 2 hander tanking already.(Personal favorite class/spec, loved it more in wrath for tanking than I do now.)

Frost Death Knights,
Speed, speed, speed, these guys are all about speed. They slow their opponents down so much, that they seem to be moving as a blur, but don't slow down friends. Pretty much how they are now, the 2 one handers, or the 1 two hander works nice between them.

Unholy Death Knights,
When I think of an Unholy DK, I think of Death riding off to kill an army. I personally would love for a talent to be in Unholy to change agility to strength on pole-arms, just to enjoy a nice pole-arm for a dk. Gives nice flavor, and keeps the specs different. As for the pet...makes perfect sense, death would have access to summon a corpse at his command, I mean, he does rule over death. Fortifying the ghoul with unholy energy is a nice touch, makes a nice flavor and dps boost.

Now that I have gone through all the classes and specs, I hope for constructive criticism about my ideas, not flaming, I do have a rather large flame shield called Manners.

TL:DR, stop being lazy and read it.
I personally think the amount of dps one puts out should also be determined by ones armor and survivability. The less survivability the more deeps. A plate wearer being able to out dps a rogue to me is silly. Another thing to look at is, is this a pure dps class or can they change roles? If pure dps then they should shine in dps. Hate having to say this but for me the game started to lose direction with the addition of DK's. Quit trying to give every class the same abilities. As an example, once upon a time rogues were known for stuns, now it seems everyone can do it now.

thanks
Moosemeat
well i agree the way it's going now the class/spec/role combinations are going to get too complicated to balance/gear. the solution to this is not simple though. i think that like it or not, not every fight can be designed to use all the mechanics and roles. so it is simply impossible to have everyone doing everything all the time (1). so i think that like it or not, players aren't going to be able to bring whatever toon they wan't whenever they want. so the system could stand to be simplified a little:

model (3) or (4) sound the best to me. the idea of haveing specific roles available to specific classes and specific classes available to specific races is the most readily understood. again in model (3) it's probably not possible to put a moment for every class in every boss fight, but over the course of a whole dungeon if they are needed a couple of times, i think they will still feel usefull. if there are some overlaping abilities between classes the raid wont need to have a specific class composition.

so i would say (3) and remember that not every class be used in every boss fight.
There probably should be a mix between Model 3 and 4. Personally, I don't care much for PVP, but I know a lot of people who love it.
PVP, needs to do very effective damage and be able to move and deal damage while moving. As well as to be able to extricate ones self as need be.
-- A real world situation of military should suffice. There are "specs" for doing different tasks. While all specs are trained in basic military methods, you have specializations that are necessary to fulfill various missions.

The issue with PVP vs PVE in WoW is that to do it effectively you have to - aside from liking it - 1) have proper gear and weapons and 2) have a proper talent tree set up.
While this is doable, per se, it is not optimal as it is. My opinion.
Each Class has 3 trees to choose from, and Dual Speccing allows for the use of 2. Switching between is not that hard using the nice tools provided for Equipment Sets and the minute or so to swap trees.
The problem here, for PVP lovers, as I see it, is that you have a tree for each Class best for PVP. This means to do effective PVPing you need to use one of your 2 trees.
That takes away from providing alternating support for PVEing, RAIDs or Dungeons.

Yes, one can use PVP gear to level. And as we have all seen, it is used in Dungeons and RAIDs, though not necessarily to best effect. The changes of late have made it - higher level PVP gear - almost as effective as good PVE gear. That totally blurs things.

Is that what is wanted?

Personally I like the 2 tree allowance. Several of my 10 characters have Dual Specs, for a reason. One is to experiment, which might be best, or better controlled by me. Another, like for my Mage, fire or arcane (thought I was gonna say fire or ice - I never really got into frost maging). My DK is Blood and Frost, it seemed more natural with that Class. Especially after the changes from their introduction.

But none of these really addresses PVPer's desires, to have the Dual Spec as well as PVP.

It would seem to me then that adding the PVP separate tree might work. I admit, not knowing how much of a pain to implement it would be, it could be far better than going backwards or making everything equal.

Life isn't equal. People do different things because they are good at something and crappy at something else. Is a logistics master good at engineering? And so on.

My mage sometimes hates me cause I forget he doesn't melee very well. And that is how it should be. Mages are not hand to hand fighters.

So, I guess to be fair overall, PVE and PVP need to be separated somehow, yet also available in a better fashion than is currently implemented. Something more than just having my Ret Pally switch to a PVP gear set and run a BG.

And that issue is I believe at the core of many people's gripes with Tanks. You can use a good PVP set because of the resilience and the current set up allows for it without too much a penalty. But the healers need to be more aware. So sometimes something has to give.
I really liked the whole world event things. The opening of the wall in sith. That was totally awesome, though my computer blew up as there were so many people there when it did open. Git it!!! sooo many people there!?! Mbee some realm vs realm things. I'd love to go into Blackhand n kick some booty!! for instance. Or beat them in the building of a Great Pyramid. Who know's, just some things that are different. Throw some unique items back into the game. I have a dagger that hardly noone else has for instance. As it stands now, we all have the same polearm or dagger in the end basically. I mean if someone gets the item and does a tich more dps with it, ya know he/she deserves it, they worked for it or by the luck of the draw or world drop got it.

All of the new models 1-5 simply talk about talent trees and to homogenize more or less blah blah blah. Not one mention of the game as a whole, of anything new, fun, or unique.
Wanna bring back or add customers?


I agree. When I see someone riding one of the Silithus Mounts in a BG it makes me remember the meaning behind that mount. One per server, the lucky bastard that found the keystone to bring down the wall. I remember the planning it took to bring down the wall where the date was posted and it was be there or be square. even if the server did lag like hell it was a lot more interesting than the crap we do now.
I'm a fan of Vanilla. It was unbalanced. An affliction lock could handle 3 mobs at a time while leveling, while a warrior (ANY kind of warrior) would die if he pulled even one mob at half health.

Hunters had to get ammo and feed their pets. Shamans had to buy ankhs for reincarnation (no glyphs) and Horde had Shamans and Alliance had Paladins.

If you wanted to tank you roll'd a warrior. If you wanted to heal you roll'd a priest. Hybrid classes offered more utility but less DPS. Pure classes did one thing great but only that one thing.

There was very little balance. And yet it was the most interesting, creative and fun time of the game. This is before cookie-cutter specs. When talents were actually up to the player. Now, we can go to Noxxic.com and learn how to play a class within 15 minutes.

The problem is when you "balance" and "homogenize" things you also make them boring and bland. There is no more flavor to this game. But people !@#$% if their class isn't on top and Blizzard inevitably caves to keep the masses placated. However, I'll take a controversial viewpoint, and argue that the people often times do not know what is in their best interest. They simple cry for "fairness" when what they're really asking for is to make their characters better so they don't have to work as hard. I gladly roll'd a warrior to level in Vanilla because it was hard! And it was fun for me. There is no hard class to level anymore and that sucks.

Classes SHOULD feel different. A hunter having to feed his pet was part of the fun of being a hunter. If you don't like it, roll a different freaking class. Part of the fun of being a Pally was bubbling and hearthing. If you don't like it, roll a different freaking class. There was something for everyone, but not everything for everyone. And that's a good thing. The class you picked represented your personality. Now, every class feels and play the same, for the most part, and if it goes further in that direction I think the game will have fallen victim to theorycrafting at the expense of flavor and unique gameplay.

One of the biggest problems Blizzard faces with advancing level caps and more and more expansions is to keep the game accesible to new customers while keeping old ones happy. However, the game has tilted way too far in the direction of new customers, IMHO. Why do you think leveling has become so easy? Why do you think you get a mount at level 20 now? Why do you think you get 20 gold per quest? It's so new customers can catch up to old customers in a matter of weeks instead of a year. However, it also cheapens the experience for those that have gone through the grind of Vanilla and BC and waited until 40 to buy a mount and knew the experience of having to eat food between mob fights to regen health.

I know things will never go back to Vanilla, I just don't want things to continue going to "everything is equal, even if it means everything is boring". Because boring = I'm going to go play Star Wars.


This on so many levels.
The problem is when you "balance" and "homogenize" things you also make them boring and bland. There is no more flavor to this game. But people !@#$% if their class isn't on top and Blizzard inevitably caves to keep the masses placated. However, I'll take a controversial viewpoint, and argue that the people often times do not know what is in their best interest. They simple cry for "fairness" when what they're really asking for is to make their characters better so they don't have to work as hard. I gladly roll'd a warrior to level in Vanilla because it was hard! And it was fun for me. There is no hard class to level anymore and that sucks.


I wrote and rewrote my post 4/5 times... then wiped everything to read some responses, only to find your response just about 99% matching what I wanted to say. The bold sentence sums it up for me.

Let me contextualize quick. I did wow vanilla and then TBC. I then stopped playing some months before lich-king hit. I activated a brand new account 1 month ago to get back into things.... and what a shock for a returning player it was.

Not a good or a bad shock, just a shock...
Leveling up is a joke, I understand the reasoning to get a new player up to the level cap, but there is no more sense or feeling of accomplishment. (Personally speaking).
What happened to open world elite mob areas? BRING IT BACK!! /cry
The lowbie experience has died, it is impotent and lifeless.
Is the only care and focus on end-game now?

Questing is relegated to getting as fast as possible to level 15... from that point forward you stay in your most convenient capital city and /LFD your way into level 80.

Your awesome story-lines and quest areas between lvl20 and lvl80? Mostly deserted.
You will only find the odd raw mats farmer or player doing skill-ups.

If I could ask one thing and one thing only.... force the players back into the world. Place a cap on /LFD in some way. Make /LFD open up once you have done 20 world quests? Or cap /LFD to 5 times per level?, Or ....something.

But I digress... as for class specs, the best solution will be the solution that caters for the raider, for the solo guy, for the pvp junkie ..... and the lowbie that wants to reroll 10 classes on 5 servers because he wants to experience each class in a different questing area, in a different spec - and feel challenged doing so.

I have spoken to a few of my old-time raid mates.... I have a feeling SWTOR will become a swear word to be hashed out with special characters soon.
yes martouff your right about that but way do some thing dift when must ppl like the way it is. tho i do miss the days where i can spec. in any tree or where i like too have my ponts in. spec. dift from all otheres was fun.
@Fishroyalty

my thoughts exactly
Oh, and while it is fresh...

Stuns, rogues - polymorphs, mages - rooting and hibernating, Druids (?) - Ice traps, Hunters - hexes, Shamans.

Did I cover it all?

Why, because I really like what was done in the new dungeons. My mage can no longer sheep those dragon kin casters, you need a hunter or Druid. And try using Spell Steal, you are almost guaranteed a death or a wipe.

A group without a mage cannot shut the Hand Queen up from a distance, you need to break off your Pally, DK or Warrior to smack her mouth shut! :D

You have to work at some cooperation, and UNDERSTANDING, to get the job done.

Balance and overcoming odd group mixes. This best typifies the PVE vs PVP situation.
02/14/2012 11:24 AMPosted by Elsaverchris
mages and locks, rogues, only do dps? When were they ever healer or tank material in past games?


You don't play enough RPGs then Because mages in a lot of those can heal and in some they called white mages.
Golden Sun is just one of the many RPGs in which mages heal.


Yes because WoW needs to be like every other RPG out there right?

Wrong, this is WoW mages are meant to be damage dealers who have a few utility moves to help keep them alive should they get targetted but otherwise are squishy.

02/14/2012 11:24 AMPosted by Anhkora
but there is no more sense or feeling of accomplishment.


All things in this game outside of heroic raiding or 1800+ RBGs/Arenas feels this way now. And its part of the problem with WoW and why so many people are disgruntled. In Vanilla if you didn't raid you leveled toons and did things outside of the raiding environment which was fun. Same in BC, but in Wrath it all changed to where Raiding and the end-game stuff was all that was important.
@Fishroyalty

my thoughts exactly


+++++++++
Cannot agree more.
02/14/2012 10:11 AMPosted by Autolocus
All pures should be better at dps, but that's not the case anymore.


In PvP it seems to me they do... i dont play PvE enough to know that they didnt but i trust Autolocus that they arent. (after much figuring out where Autolocus and others in this forum are coming from), Pure Classes should always be a step a head from hybrids classes for DPS... not facerolling better but a step above, yes. I do see Autolocus side and do agree with him/her on this matter.

I know someone mentioned the same for tanks and healing... i dont see that for tanks... there is definitely not a pure tank, every class that can be a tank (even in MoP) can switch to something else in their class tree for a non-tanking spec. If someone says a warrior is more limited cause they only have two choices (only dps or tank) they should be better tanks then a class that has three choices (hybrid classes) i dont agree with that logic.

As for healing, Priests as well have two choices (no tank choice in other words) though i would say they are a pure healing class and are the only pure healing class... ideally speaking they have always been considered as such in RPG games... maybe they ought to be a step above the rest... but again, not terribly so.

On that note, we all know the DPS pendulum exists in WoW.. and for the hyrbid and/or particular classes it always swings to favor them for a minute, but faithfully returns the other way. Seems thats the continual trend... i dont know exactly why the developers chose the pendulum increases instead of doing blanket increases for all DPS while keeping pure classes a step ahead, but theres probably some rhyme and reason as to why, that im not clever enough to notice.

If i had to guess though, from a pvp perspective, everyone would typically roll more pure classes if there were no pendulum... but then again, the pendulum exists and rogues, mages, hunters and locks are what i see the most in RBGs today. (and boy do they cause me problems lol) But what is pvp without DPS, right?? not complaining and wont complain about that, but they are not plate wearers... and though they should be better at DPS, they should not be as hard to kill (eluding tactics aside) as a tank which frost mages and rogues seem to be to me today.

Anyway... that MVP in the first page said it well, you want to bring a lil of all the models... yet I would say without sacrificing the pure class' DPS (though i would also say model 5 should not be in that picture at all). I do believe there will be a primary model followed, as i mentioned before, it seems MoP is model 3 yet more granule then spec swaping, its spec utility swaping. Doesnt mean Blizzard should overlook the pures at the same time. each tree should bring its own special flavor and personality to pvp and pve IMO... not one spec of every tree should be for pvp and one for pve, etc... there should be some balancing to all the models to allow every spec to be respected in any given environment... yet without generalizing and sacrificing said spec personality. Hard goal to achieve yet that should be Blizzard's continual goal IMO.
Maudib said:

Years ago I mentioned separating talent trees for pve vs. pvp. Things swing too dramatically when nerfing or buffing for pve purposes on the pvp side or visa versa.



Totally.

Honestly, something should be done to seperate the PvE and PvP mechanics, because it's pretty awful to lose things like Cleansing Totem (which was fantastic for leveling a Shaman), simply because it "stomps all over another class's (DK) abilities. There have been so many examples of the PvE experience losing out due to the "needs" of PvP over the years that I would actually accept having the talent trees reworked into:

Spec 1: PvE DPS/Utility/Healing/Tanking
Spec 2: PvE DPS
Spec 3: PvP (with choose this OR this type talents for healing/tanking/dps).

So long as they brought back the original talent tree "mix and match" design, with a lot of talent points to spend. I am sure some number, like 60 points, could be picked out of the air and just left alone. People will always play around with mixing up the talents - which is part of the fun already! ....
02/08/2012 06:07 PMPosted by Vhòk
i vote number 5

I second this vote. ;3


Classes SHOULD feel different. A hunter having to feed his pet was part of the fun of being a hunter. If you don't like it, roll a different freaking class. Part of the fun of being a Pally was bubbling and hearthing. If you don't like it, roll a different freaking class. There was something for everyone, but not everything for everyone. And that's a good thing. The class you picked represented your personality. Now, every class feels and play the same, for the most part, and if it goes further in that direction I think the game will have fallen victim to theorycrafting at the expense of flavor and unique gameplay.


I'm not going to go play Star Wars, but I miss the old class bits too. I miss feeding my hunter's pet, and I miss the level 60 quest chains (although, for the level of the area now, they'd have to be level 20 ones now). I don't plan to leave Azeroth any time soon, but it doesn't mean I don't miss the aspects of Vanilla that still existed when I obtained my own account (did play in Vanilla for a bit, my daughter's account, till she got bored with the game).

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