Shiv Changes

Rogue
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02/18/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Dajela
I know when MOP comes out i'm just going to try and get 2 rogues on my RBG and 5v5 teams. 1 Rogue stacking the 50% healing debuff and crippling poison. The other rogue stacking mind numbing and paralytic.


You can't use 2 utility poisons on one rogue, silly.
02/18/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Dajela
The other rogue stacking mind numbing and paralytic.


Cool let me know how that rogue uses 2 non lethal poisons in MoP conisdering we can only use MN OR Paralytic unless we get deadly brew...in which case we dont get paralytic


kthxbye
02/18/2012 09:00 AMPosted by Sheevah
I know when MOP comes out i'm just going to try and get 2 rogues on my RBG and 5v5 teams. 1 Rogue stacking the 50% healing debuff and crippling poison. The other rogue stacking mind numbing and paralytic.


You can't use 2 utility poisons on one rogue, silly.


Beat me to it....

DAMN YOU!
Sowwy :P
I can't see it happening. Mainly because faction champs irritated so many people which goes against the casual thing.

Unless they make some stupid requirement for a rogue to be in the raid for a specific shiv ability. There will always be a range class with the ability to do what ever is required much faster without having to run over to the add or you will have people whining that there is an encounter that is impossible without a rogue which moves away from the non class specific mantra.

In the case that a melee dps is required to tank an add for some reason leeching will be the highest survivability anyway unless you need to kite it and hence every other range class will be better or a tank.

It is near impossible to imagine a situation where a melee class would be able to perform any role that a range can do simpler that does not involve leeching poison.

ie unless something really stupid happens and they implement another pvp encounter like faction champs again. There will be next to no reason to have anything other than DP/Leeching.

Shiv increased poison affects will be a pvp ability. Unless they add some interesting poison for pve that actually effects either dps, survivability or raid survivability with a duration long enough to mean that shiv should be included in the rotation. Leeching is the only one that I see ever being used in a raid outside stupid mechanic gimmick fights. I wish this was not the case but the simple fact of the matter is that ALL raid bosses are currently immune to all the other effects.


What you call "stupid mechanic gimmick fights" I call "interesting fights." :) My favorite fight in this expansion, of those regular-mode fights I've been fortunate enough to experience, is Ragnaros. And I say that despite the fact that my guild wiped on it about 45 times before Dragon Soul came out and everyone said "screw it." For me, the transition phases are a joy, because they're not just me standing in place and spamming the same sequence of buttons over and over again until pixels die.

I like using a greater range of my abilities. I like having to think while I play. Not all the time, don't get me wrong -- sometimes we all can use a Morchok or a Zon'ozz as a break from critical thinking. But to me, the fun of this game lies elsewhere from trying to get my parse ranked on WoL.

This isn't gonna be an especially original observation from me, but I feel like a lot of the negativity we've seen in the past couple days about the "pointlessness" of the new poisons and the redesigned Shiv mechanic is pretty closely related to how we each view ideal PvE scenarios. If we frown on fights that require us to go beyond SS-RvS-Evisc/SnD or that force us to run around, then we're gonna hate even thinking about the possibility that this new poison/Shiv stuff is something we may have to use in Mists boss fights. So we'll say it's impossible, or that it doesn't make sense, or that we can't envision it. I choose to be intrigued by the possibilities. :)
Paralytic poison.

You're going to honestly tell me, that you would choose another stun effect over wound poison?
I mean, honestly.

Would any of you ACTUALLY pick paralytic poison over deadly brew?
Because I wouldn't.


The choice isn't even on the table. It's not even a serious option, it's not even a thought that crossed my mind.

A.)Am I the only rogue in the world who doesn't actually want more stuns? The more stuns they give us the less damage we should do. I Certainly never rolled a rogue JUST so I could stun people all the time. I hate being stunned and stunning other players to the point of frustration has never been a goal of mine. I really would have hoped that after almost 10 years of playing this game, we finally could have realized that chain stunning players is a terrible design in the first place.

B.)This talk of dispelling poisons is interesting given that there is talk of making dispels more difficult.

C.) I like the shiv changes, I really do, But the use of one utility and one damage deadlocks Deadly brew as a required talent to me.


Daxx, I have to say I'm put off by almost every single change posted so far.
  • Sub is being cannibalized to the point where it doesn't appear to be a valid spec on paper anymore.
  • Almost every talent choice we have is either a no brainer, has options that we can't pick, or caters directly to a specific specs usefulness. We have 0 interesting decisions.
  • Prep shouldn't reset cloak and smoke bomb. It's that simple, and if it does, nobody will ever pick anything else. Even if BoS / Shadowstep were equal to Prep, Shadowstep can't compete with a snare immunity with no CD. These aren't choices.
  • Additionally between Deadly Brew / Paralytic Poison / Dirty Deeds there is no choice here either, Deadly brew is required, because Wound is required, and crip is the best way to prevent being kited around. Chain stunning a player is just annoying and in any real pvp encounter, someone is going to be healing him, so your stuns are pointlessly dragging the fight out.
  • Shuriken Toss and Deadly Throw. I realize some people are really excited about this. I won't even lie, I missed Deadly throw a little. However, the only reason I would choose either of these, is if my combat plan was to be kited around in circles. That isn't my plan, and I don't want that to happen, so I would never choose these options. Additionally the tiers they are on don't make them viable. These are talents all rogues should just have if this is the direction we're going. Also for the record if we ever get a 4th spec, and it revolves around throwing daggers, I'm done. Seriously, if we have 4 damage specs I'm rage abandoning this game.
  • Why don't we get any options like the warrior first tier? Why aren't all tiers like this. All Warriors have Charge, and each of these options impacts every single spec, but none of the options are blatantly better than others. Also, all three options impact the same ability / functionality. So why aren't all tiers like this? I mean our first tier has 2 options that are sort of like that... but why not 3? and why isn't every tier of every class like that? Those are the kind of good options I like to see. Our tree looks like a disaster to me.

  • Would any of you ACTUALLY pick paralytic poison over deadly brew?
    Because I wouldn't.


    Depends on how fast it stacks, and how well the root functions in a PvP environment, based on our needs and what classes I'm playing with.

    But yes, it is definitely a possibility.
    Thinking about it....the new shiv may actually make for an interesting skill to talent in competition to Deadly Brew

    Basically Deadly Brew lets you "use" 3 poisons. Crip and 1 lethal and 1 non lethal

    Shiv basically supercharges your 1 non lethal poison for a few seconds

    So perhapse these could be made into interesting choices like:

    Deadly Brew stays the same

    vs

    1) Vile Blade: When you use shiv you apply an additional concetrated poison effect (which one is as follows):

    -Shiv Mind Numb -> Also shiv crip (but only at a 6sec duration)
    -Shiv Crip -> Also shiv wound
    -Shiv Wound -> Also shiv mind numb
    -Shiv Leech -> Also shiv para
    -Shiv Para -> also shiv leech

    Obviously the para/lethal ones may beed reworking since you dont want them shiving a poison they didnt take in the talent tree but I just needed to put them in there for completeness.

    Thus in this case you can pick deadly brew (3 poisons more overal "control") or Vile Blade (Still only 2 poisons but your non lethal poison shiv because much more effective) or w/e the 3rd talent would be.

    -OR-

    2) Vile Blade: Your shiv also applies a concetrated dose of your lethal poison
    -Deadly: Instantly deal damage equal to a full duration of your deadly poison and refresh your current deadly poison on the target
    -Instant: Apply a 6sec debuff to the target, every time the target deals damage or heals they take XXX poison damage

    Again you would have the choice between more poisons via DB or a strong shiv for your current poisons

    -OR-

    3) Vile Blade: Increases the potency of the shiv effect of your poisons
    -Mind Numb: Reduces all spell damage and healing delt by 30% for the duration
    -Crip: Reduce the chance the target will hit with spells and attacks by 50% for 5sec. Effect gets reduced by 10% every second.
    -Wound: Negate the next XXXX amount of healing the target recives for up to 6sec
    -Leeching: Heal and additional 50% of the amount leeching's shiv effect healed you for over 8sec
    -Para: Limit the target's run speed for 5sec if the root effect is dispelled (i.e. they cant run faster than 100%, this provides some dispell protection in that if they dispell the root they still cannot move faster than 100% for a while)

    Again the choice is between more poisons from DB or stronger shiv effect poisons from Vile blade



    Of course there would have to be a 3rd equally as appealing talent against these 2. What that would be I just dont know.

    Perhaps a poison bomb on a 45sec CD that allows you to infect all foes within a certain area with your current non lethal poison (perhaps at a reduced duration?)

    Just a thought I had upon thinking about shiv and deadly brew.
    I will agree that Deadly Brew looks like a better choice overall for pvp than paralytic poison. Which means that paralytic poison can be removed and replaced with something else and smart rogues will be no worse off. The only rogues who would be worse off would be those looking for a "u mad bro?" moment to enjoy an 11 second stunlock.
    02/17/2012 05:33 PMPosted by Daxxarri
    Consider that poisons are dispellable, and you need five stack of Paralytic to get a stun off
    ... o-0 people dispell poisons? thought blizzard did away with dispellin poisons as it wasnt 'fun' .... x-x so it now costs an arm and a leg per dispell
    What I really want to know is, how did the devs sit down at their meeting and say, "You know what rogues need? More ways to disable their opponents!"

    Hey rogues, congrats on finally actually needing all the daggers on the loot table, since you'll need one for each utility poison with a shiv macro.
    What I really want to know is, how did the devs sit down at their meeting and say, "You know what rogues need? More ways to disable their opponents!"

    Hey rogues, congrats on finally actually needing all the daggers on the loot table, since you'll need one for each utility poison with a shiv macro.


    You misunderstand sir. Poisons will be a buff, on the rogue, not an temp item enchantment as they are now. No amount of weapon swapping will circumvent the two poison limit.

    If the rogue wished to change poisons to swap them out, it would require casting a new poison, which is not instant.

    On a separate note, while we don’t have an elegant system in place for it, we do know that a lot of Combat rogues want to at least have the appearance of dual wielding swords/axes/maces. There are a lot of hurdles, but maybe we’ll find a good way to deliver on that. No promises though! So, again, don’t get your hopes up too high.


    Yes, you're right, your transmogrification tools probably aren't that elegant yet, but I have faith in your team's ability to patch something together. Though, it should be sword/axes/maces/fisties. Don't fix it and forget the fist weapons!
    Though, it should be sword/axes/maces/fisties. Don't fix it and forget the fist weapons!

    + Daggers.
    02/18/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Dajela
    Do you really think Rogues need another form of control? I mean seriously they already have enough of it as is. Cheap shot, Gouge, Kidney shot, Blind, smoke bomb, and a 70% slow that can all be reset at disengaged at any time. Another stun just makes things way overboard. The devs talked about mages having to much control and then go and do this? How do they look over these things so easily?


    Where does (Sub) Rogue control come from? It comes from duel utility poisons (WP/CP). It comes from Prep. It comes from Glyph of Blind and Sanguinary Vein (essentially, Dirty Tricks) and enough mobility to stay on target (Shadow Step). What do we see in MoP?

    - You can run duel utility poisons if you pick Deadly Brew.
    - You can run Glyph of Blind and Sanguinary Vein if you pick Dirty Tricks.
    - You can't have both utility (Prep) and the mobility (Step) to make Prep and all the above useful.
    - Crippling requires energy/GCD/player action and a 10s CD to be at it's current 70% debuff for 8s (remember, PvP reduced duration).
    - Finally, if you choose Paralytic Poison, a 4s stun on an RNG build up at 2/3rds the proc rate of Deadly Poison (20% for PP, 30% for DP), you can also 4s root on Shiv's 10s CD ... and you give up Dirty Tricks, duel utility poisons, and Crippling Poison entirely.

    Sub's control is actually taking a very, very hard hit. At the same time, so is it's survivability. Improved Recuperate and Quickening health bonuses are gone, and Recuperate has been taken out of Sub's damage rotation.

    As if that weren't enough, Sub's burst is being flattened out. Sub will keep a 40e Ambush (but ONLY for Dance, not for normal openers) and 70% armor penn in Find Weakness, but it trades Improved Ambush (+60% crit) for the extra two (previously glyphed) seconds on Shadow Dance. That means less intense damage over a longer period of time.

    In other words, you are either trolling, or completely freaking out that about Rogue control and PvP viability. It isn't increasing by any stretch of the imagination, so stop hyperventilating and start rejoicing.
    Would any of you ACTUALLY pick paralytic poison over deadly brew?
    Because I wouldn't.


    Extorn, I think you've hit the nail on the head. You wouldn't.

    It's essentially a matter of choice. There are different combinations of talents that either do or do not work well together.

    Example: Elusiveness, Burst of Speed, and Shuriken Toss all take energy, and will probably not be the best of choices when taken together.

    There are however several other options.

    If you choose Prep, you can still have some mobility. Deadly Throw gives you a ranged snare (a weak sort of gap closer) with an interrupt to make someone's day nastier as you catch up. If you need combo points for DT (and you aren't Sub with HaT/Premed), you can also choose Shuriken Toss ... which may itself be able to proc CP.

    If you choose Paralytic Poison, you don't give up all your rights to staying on target, just a lot of them. Again, you can still slow (at range!) if you choose Deadly Throw, and you can still use BoS or Prep to keep up.

    Sub overall control is decreasing, but more than that it's becoming more complex. You have choices to make, and different play styles available. If Paralytic isn't yours, you can choose another route.

    Here's the kicker: This is all still pre-alpha/beta. What's important here are the basic mechanics, the choices, not the relative strength of each choice. If most/all Rogue choose one talent, Blizzard either nerf the one or buff the others. Don't get too excited over "We're doomed!" (whether you're a Rogue or not), just try and make the game interesting. The balancing act comes later.

    What you call "stupid mechanic gimmick fights" I call "interesting fights." :) My favorite fight in this expansion, of those regular-mode fights I've been fortunate enough to experience, is Ragnaros. And I say that despite the fact that my guild wiped on it about 45 times before Dragon Soul came out and everyone said "screw it." For me, the transition phases are a joy, because they're not just me standing in place and spamming the same sequence of buttons over and over again until pixels die.

    I like using a greater range of my abilities. I like having to think while I play. Not all the time, don't get me wrong -- sometimes we all can use a Morchok or a Zon'ozz as a break from critical thinking. But to me, the fun of this game lies elsewhere from trying to get my parse ranked on WoL.

    This isn't gonna be an especially original observation from me, but I feel like a lot of the negativity we've seen in the past couple days about the "pointlessness" of the new poisons and the redesigned Shiv mechanic is pretty closely related to how we each view ideal PvE scenarios. If we frown on fights that require us to go beyond SS-RvS-Evisc/SnD or that force us to run around, then we're gonna hate even thinking about the possibility that this new poison/Shiv stuff is something we may have to use in Mists boss fights. So we'll say it's impossible, or that it doesn't make sense, or that we can't envision it. I choose to be intrigued by the possibilities. :)


    Since when did Ragnaros become a gimmick fight? There is nothing int that fight where I am required to do anything not normal to what I would normally do.

    The issue with the new poisons and Shiv is simple there is no choice at all for a raiding rogue to use anything other than leeching poison. Nothing else will have any useful benefit without sacrificing either dps or survivability. This is exactly the point that should be addressed

    If they implement fight that requires a rogue to use a different poison it's unlikely that the rogue will get that job anyway since they have to much overhead to actually perform the job that another range class can perform with just a press of a button.

    I would like to see some other interesting poisons. Maybe fumbling poison or something that makes the target miss the next melee attack, shiv does a 2 second disarm.

    Or itching poison, pecent chance to miss next spell cast, shiv makes target cast next spell no self or the rogue if a heal etc.

    Or psychic poison, percent chance to make target change targets. Shiv does a fear for 3 seconds.

    Or confusing poison, makes target take 5% of damage dealt as damage. Shiv makes target hit himself with his own weapon.

    The list goes on. At the moment the poisons are just rehashed old ideas and even leeching and para are just rehashed versions of other mechanics which will not work on bosses and will have extremely limited use in the encounter at large. Where are the new ideas.

    edit: spelling
    02/18/2012 04:12 PMPosted by Dreltath
    The issue with the new poisons and Shiv is simple there is no choice at all for a raiding rogue to use anything other than leeching poison. Nothing else will have any useful benefit without sacrificing either dps or survivability. This is exactly the point that should be addressed

    This seems fairly exaggerated; we're surviving just fine in PvE now without leeching poison. While I can see it being particularly useful, I can also say the same about most of the others (and their Shiv effects).
    02/18/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Verelyse
    The issue with the new poisons and Shiv is simple there is no choice at all for a raiding rogue to use anything other than leeching poison. Nothing else will have any useful benefit without sacrificing either dps or survivability. This is exactly the point that should be addressed

    This seems fairly exaggerated; we're surviving just fine in PvE now without leeching poison. While I can see it being particularly useful, I can also say the same about most of the others (and their Shiv effects).


    Only if you can use them on the boss. Which i doubt will happen since that means you will be required to bring a rogue. And all of the standard poisons affects can be performed at range by another class or a tank.
    02/18/2012 04:41 PMPosted by Dreltath

    This seems fairly exaggerated; we're surviving just fine in PvE now without leeching poison. While I can see it being particularly useful, I can also say the same about most of the others (and their Shiv effects).


    Only if you can use them on the boss. Which i doubt will happen since that means you will be required to bring a rogue. And all of the standard poisons affects can be performed at range by another class or a tank.

    Because boss fights never involve adds susceptible to CC.

    At the rate things are going, I'd anticipate getting -more- encounters where these sorts of abilities would be extremely useful in the future. Which is potentially why they're being given to us now.

    So, again. Until we see what the beta has in store for us, it's pointless calling any of this worthless.

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