Shiv Changes

Rogue
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Loot tables. If only one spec of one class (which happens to also be the least played class) finds a use out of a 1.8 speed Axe/Sword/Etc, then it's not the best use of a loot slot. Of course, there's a number of alternatives to the simple loot tables we have atm, but none that are likely to be implemented.


What about a vendor that trades your dagger for a sword/axe/mace?

Q. For clarification, how exactly do active poisons work? One lethal, one utility, both with potential to proc from both weapons?
One Lethal, one Non-Lethal, and both poisons are effectively on both weapons. Whenever you land either a mainhand or off-hand strike, you have a chance to apply both your Lethal and Non-Lethal poison.


From an arena/RBG perspective (and to a lesser extent, random battlegrounds) all of these new non-lethal poisons are gimped seeing as how you can't use them and wound. Any chance you guys will consider making Wound a lethal poison? It's not like we have many options for lethal poisons right now.

As it stands like this, either rogues will have limited arena comps (limited to classes with other snares and MS debuffs) or all non-lethal poisons will go unused in rated PvP, except for Wound. You could even nerf the utility by taking Wound off of shiv and it would be much better IMO.
02/16/2012 01:34 PMPosted by Azreluna
What about a vendor that trades your dagger for a sword/axe/mace?


Not a bad idea, and could be fairly easily implemented. I'd suspect Blizzard is looking more heavily into simply changing Transmog options, though, as that's the quickest solution.

What I'd like to see is bosses dropping materials / parts of themselves that are sharp and pointy (Deathwing's Wing Bone, for example), and we visit a crafter to turn it into a weapon of our choice. This gives professions more to do at end-game level, as well.
02/16/2012 01:34 PMPosted by Azreluna
What about a vendor that trades your dagger for a sword/axe/mace?


Why not just design the spec around two slow one-hands?
From an arena/RBG perspective (and to a lesser extent, random battlegrounds) all of these new non-lethal poisons are gimped seeing as how you can't use them and wound. Any chance you guys will consider making Wound a lethal poison? It's not like we have many options for lethal poisons right now.

As it stands like this, either rogues will have limited arena comps (limited to classes with other snares and MS debuffs) or all non-lethal poisons will go unused in rated PvP, except for Wound. You could even nerf the utility by taking Wound off of shiv and it would be much better IMO.

Legitimate concern, would love to hear Daxx's thoughts on it. We didn't let him escape yet, did we?
What about a vendor that trades your dagger for a sword/axe/mace?


Why not just design the spec around a slow offhand?


We have a winner! :) However, I seem to recall (from a very long time ago) that they felt that a fast-offhand / daggers were a signature of the Rogue class. I may be wrong on that.
From an arena/RBG perspective (and to a lesser extent, random battlegrounds) all of these new non-lethal poisons are gimped seeing as how you can't use them and wound. Any chance you guys will consider making Wound a lethal poison? It's not like we have many options for lethal poisons right now.

As it stands like this, either rogues will have limited arena comps (limited to classes with other snares and MS debuffs) or all non-lethal poisons will go unused in rated PvP, except for Wound. You could even nerf the utility by taking Wound off of shiv and it would be much better IMO.

Legitimate concern, would love to hear Daxx's thoughts on it. We didn't let him escape yet, did we?


Well he and the other blues have to talk to other classes as well.

I say if he doesnt post again by the end of the day hes gone on to read/comment on something else.

Good while it lasted but cant hog all his time.
02/16/2012 01:37 PMPosted by Real
fairly easily implemented


02/16/2012 01:37 PMPosted by Real
simply changing Transmog options


02/16/2012 01:43 PMPosted by Vîc
just design the spec around


I've got a sneaking suspicion that a lot of you guys might have definitions of "easy," "simple" and "just" in your mind that maybe don't reflect reality quite as sharply as we might like to think. :)

Q. For clarification, how exactly do active poisons work? One lethal, one utility, both with potential to proc from both weapons?
One Lethal, one Non-Lethal, and both poisons are effectively on both weapons. Whenever you land either a mainhand or off-hand strike, you have a chance to apply both your Lethal and Non-Lethal poison.


From an arena/RBG perspective (and to a lesser extent, random battlegrounds) all of these new non-lethal poisons are gimped seeing as how you can't use them and wound. Any chance you guys will consider making Wound a lethal poison? It's not like we have many options for lethal poisons right now.

As it stands like this, either rogues will have limited arena comps (limited to classes with other snares and MS debuffs) or all non-lethal poisons will go unused in rated PvP, except for Wound. You could even nerf the utility by taking Wound off of shiv and it would be much better IMO.


This is a very very good question
Well he and the other blues have to talk to other classes as well.

I say if he doesnt post again by the end of the day hes gone on to read/comment on something else.

Good while it lasted but cant hog all his time.

Blasphemy. He loves us. He said so. Did he forget? He is ours. We claimed him. Who let him escape?! Someone go steal him back from whatever inferior class got their hands on him...

You see, this is why our stuns shouldn't be on DRs. We can't keep people immobilized indefinitely anymore.
02/16/2012 01:46 PMPosted by Rfeann
I've got a sneaking suspicion that a lot of you guys might have definitions of "easy," "simple" and "just" in your mind that maybe don't reflect reality quite as sharply as we might like to think. :)


Hey, we can't let the developers get a free pass from what we want just because it may take some time / challenge to implement ;)
From an arena/RBG perspective (and to a lesser extent, random battlegrounds) all of these new non-lethal poisons are gimped seeing as how you can't use them and wound. Any chance you guys will consider making Wound a lethal poison? It's not like we have many options for lethal poisons right now.

As it stands like this, either rogues will have limited arena comps (limited to classes with other snares and MS debuffs) or all non-lethal poisons will go unused in rated PvP, except for Wound. You could even nerf the utility by taking Wound off of shiv and it would be much better IMO.

Legitimate concern, would love to hear Daxx's thoughts on it. We didn't let him escape yet, did we?


Keep posting, he might come back ;)
02/16/2012 01:46 PMPosted by Rfeann
I've got a sneaking suspicion that a lot of you guys might have definitions of "easy," "simple" and "just" in your mind that maybe don't reflect reality quite as sharply as we might like to think. :)

Uh, but it is easy. Just simply rework the entire game engine to suit our whimsical desires. Totally not difficult in any way. Nothing is impossible. Not if you can imagine it. That's what being is a scientist is all about! (Software engineers are sorta like scientists, right?)
Did you just call rogues whimsical?
Dax, while we've got you under a microscope I have a couple of concerns to share.

My primary concern is with Mut PvP and Venomous Wounds.

New Rupture lasts 20 seconds unglyphed (the current glyphed duration), but Venomous Wounds has a poison requirement as well. That leaves a Mut Rogue shuffling 30s Recuperate and 20s Rupture ... with Rupture requiring a target & melee range, and Venomous Wounds falling off at most 12 seconds after leaving the target (less a ranged strike procs DP).

Subtlety by comparison is now shuffling 30s Recuperate and 40s SnD (a severe nerf!), both of which are applied to the Rogue using combo points that can be on some distant target. This suits Subtlety's HaT and Premed quite well.

Now, I understand that there are going to be differences between specs (and that's a good thing!), and that a 40s Venomous Wounds Rupture would be wwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy over the top. Still, If 30s/40s is a Sub nerf, what's that make Mut's 30s/20(12)s on target? Pretty rough.

Is there any way to increase the duration of DP? 20s DoTs aren't unheard of, and as a poison it is already readily dispelled ... killing Mut's damage and energy return.

-------------

Another concern I've voiced is how great FoK is for Mutilate (MH/OH/Thrown + Deadly Brew is amazing) and how horrible it is to lose that in MoP. Now everyone will apply one or both poisons with FoK. Can we, maybe, you know, have a bone?

------------

The Shiv tooltip no longer has cannot crit wording. Granted it does less damage than reduced damage Mutilate, it also costs 20e per combo point. 3 Shivs = 60 energy and 3cp (and can crit poison?) where 1 Mutilate = 55e and 2cp.

I've no idea how the damage from the extra poison proc and extra combo point will stack up against the reduced damage of Mutilate ... which DOES still include both weapons. Am I given to understand Shiv may become an alternative to Mutilate as we now see with Hemo/Backstab and kind of see with SS/RvS?

Either way, that's a possibly fine balance.
Not the class itself, just the desires of some who made their way into our presence.

@Madcap, if i understand correctly, Shiv won't crit because it won't be applying our damage-dealing poison, only the utility poison.
02/16/2012 01:34 PMPosted by Azreluna
Loot tables. If only one spec of one class (which happens to also be the least played class) finds a use out of a 1.8 speed Axe/Sword/Etc, then it's not the best use of a loot slot. Of course, there's a number of alternatives to the simple loot tables we have atm, but none that are likely to be implemented.


What about a vendor that trades your dagger for a sword/axe/mace?


Probably be easier to just give daggers the hunter treatment and let them be transmog'd into any other 1 hander.
Hey, nothing wrong with being a bit whimsical, or poking at possibilities :) However, I guess if wanting more transmog options is whimsical, then guilty be I. :p
Not the class itself, just the desires of some who made their way into our presence.

@Madcap, if i understand correctly, Shiv won't crit because it won't be applying our damage-dealing poison, only the utility poison.


Odd, I thought that possibly excepting Toss, both hands were applying both weapons ... or at leas that that was a consideration.

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