February 15 Update to Mists Talent Calculator

General Discussion
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So I was browsing through the enhance abilities list and I noticed Unleashed Rage wasn't there. So I checked to show all Shaman abilities and there are zero abilities that increase attack power / expertise.

Instead I saw:

Burning Wrath (Passive) - All Shaman specs

Fiery elemental energy emanates from the Shaman, empowering all nearby party and raid members and increasing their spell power by 10%.

Static Shock (Passive) - Enhancement only

When you use your Primal Strike, Stormstrike, or Lava Lash abilities while having Lighting Shield active, you have a 45% chance to deal damage equal to a Lighting Shield orb without consuming a charge.


I know the talent trees are not finished, but it seems like Blizzard is focusing more on enhancement shamans spell damage rather than attack damage. Blizzard should just go out and make it that instead of having intellect increase spell damage for enhancement shaman but instead have it increase attack power and melee and spell crit. Just remove agility all together since it seems like enhancement shaman are going to depend more on their spells.
I am concerned we are going to be a bit overwhelmed by keybinds. Was hoping MoP might streamline our keybinds, but as SV, it looks like I'll get an extra 3 or so - not reduce them! :/

IMO, there is no need for Separate Immolation, Explosive, Snake, and Ice Traps. The damage they do does not keep the wolf from the door - doesn't add significantly (imo) to PvE nor save one's bacon in PvP. The damage they do is useful for tagging, and getting credit for hks. Their other functionality is for creating a dot (amount of damage inconsequential, I remember once upon a time Snake trap had knockback... but now only a dot) to prevent stealth; or for slowing movement.

Prior to the new talent system, I had given this some thought and decided we need only 2 traps: a token damage and slowing trap, and a complete CC trap. Also I would suggest dispense with trap launcher and have traps intrinsically placeable within 40yds.

I would suggest something like this:

Prismatic Snakes - Functions like a snake trap, releases prismatic snakes which slow anyone walking into the trap (Ice trap), if bitten by the snakes applies a nature damage dot (Snake trap) or a fire damage dot (Immolation and Explosive). The damage it does need only be token - nerf as much as necessary so the utility remains without it being OP.

Freezing Trap - Functioning as presently but placeable anywhere within 40yds.

The new Transmorph Trap sounds quirky and interesting, and is different enough to need a unique trap - would give us 3 traps + 1 or 2 new keybinds; as opposed to 6 traps + launcher + 1 or 2 new keybinds.




tl;dr - Currently there are 5 traps and a launcher needing keybinds, MoP will increase this to 6 traps, launcher, plus up to 2 new shots if SV (L60 readiness, L90). This is too unwieldy. Needs streamlining.

[Ed: I have about 30 keybinds. I want less. Not more lol]


traps are considerably useful

snake trap (with entrapment) is good for kiting but the 'flavor' dot is a anti CC mechanic for the enemy teams benefit (which needs to be fixed, outdated mechanicvs is not a good thing to call 'flavor')

immolation trap is worthless, i have not used this ability in all of cataclysm except when i got curriouse to see if it was worth using again (it was useless in wrathas well) and after discovering it only did ~3k damage with FULL 15 second duration on pve targets, i dismissed it as once again useless (it gained ~100 damage since wrath gear)

explosive trap has its uses in pvp, but is also a double edged sword as it negates our CC (but it makes a good negator to vanish when flare is on CD)

ice trap is very usefull, though loses a lot of value in arenas where CC is king, because it shares CD with out CC (which im expecting to vanish in MoP, because since BC they have been seperatin our traps to make our buggy utility belt keep up with other classes [again very buggy and clunky, please consider an update to them, and removal or reduction of arming times])

freezing trap shines in arenas, but any ANY ANY dot will completely negate it, and because of its clunkyness (did i mention traps are clunky and buggy) it almost requires a mini CC to land it (scatter shot, pet charge, roots, exc)

and then their is the clunk truck that is trap launcher, in which one of 3 things need to be done

1. make it a toggled ability, removing the CD and having it active makes all traps launchable until turned off
2. make it a targeted ability, using it makes the trap hit and trigger on your current targeted enemy
3. remove the CD, remove all server lag from it so it does not have any noticeable delay which can cuase the trap to still go at our feet, make it macroable (did i mention a lot of our class abilities are very buggy and we usually use all of a avalabel macro slots for any real pvp as it is?) and remove the focus cost

and lastly, why is it that ANY class can see our traps, rouges sure, thats their specalty, but when a warrior can sidestep my trap cause he sees it, no, thats not fine (ps remove the animations for traps AND the CAW noise from aspects, as we have to much to macro as is and the noise gets very annoying)


all in all snake trap (without entrapment [because the snakes hp is pathetic, their damage is pathetic, and the posions are pethetic]) is useless, immolation trap is useless, explosive trap is a double edged sword, ice and freezing trap are usefull, but their shared CD makes the value go down severly, and the clunkyness, god the clunkyness it HAS to be updated, traps are the most outdated thing in this game, they need a proper update
02/17/2012 12:06 PMPosted by Kaivax
Faerie Fire: Has a 6 second cooldown when used in Cat or Bear Form.


i thought faerie fire was removed and replaced as an optional talent.. unless you are of course referring to the new talent version of this ability, Faerie swarm?
02/17/2012 08:45 PMPosted by Leaf
Faerie Fire: Has a 6 second cooldown when used in Cat or Bear Form.


i thought faerie fire was removed and replaced as an optional talent.. unless you are of course referring to the new talent version of this ability, Faerie swarm?


Nope, Faerie Fire is still in as a level 34 Druid ability.
Posted by Kaivax
Faerie Fire: Has a 6 second cooldown when used in Cat or Bear Form.


02/17/2012 08:45 PMPosted by Leaf
i thought faerie fire was removed and replaced as an optional talent.. unless you are of course referring to the new talent version of this ability, Faerie swarm?


As I understand it, Faerie Fire morphs into Faerie Swarm if you take that talent.

On the whole, not really impressed in terms of the druid tanking stuff. Frenzied Regen? Reverted to it's pre-Cata version so it's a separate cd again as opposed to being a last stand + heal. Might of Ursoc (last stand) being available to all druid specs doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And I'm extremely disheartened that they took away infected wounds from bears--sometimes you just have to have that movement and attack speed reduction.
The new hunter talents look amazing, but I fear that they'll be nerfed into oblivion especially the 15% hp from disengage, the Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera, and lastly, the Binding Shot.


Let's hope I'm wrong.


CTHC isn't new.
Curious to see how glyphs will synergize with the new talents. Can't wait for a preview!
Giving us a self heal above and beyond Spirit bond: Good. Tying it to Disengage: Bad. There are just too many fights where we cannot afford the luxury of jumping a significant distance back to heal.


They could tie the heal to Feign Death instead of Disengage. When you come back up from the fake death, you're healed 30% (because of longer cooldown).


Yes I like this suggestion very much (Tieing to FD, which is something I will use in a party to drop aggro, and if I have aggro praps I've taken some hits, so the heal will be useful then). Perhaps it could be tied to both Disengage and FD, with the heal cd independent of the shot (no double dipping) - so it is equally useful in bg and PvE.

Alfavhunter, yep, you've highlighted the weaknesses from a more experienced pvp perspective. The vulnerability of Freeze Trap to dots - praps we need a glyph like the Mage Polymorph one that removes all dots from the Poly target?

I'll drop a Snake trap in pvp when there are stealth classes around tho' so don't see that dot as a negative. (And hope they are so surprised that someone has used it they forget to use AoE). It is a sad little trap - I did the theorycrafting once, and even glyphed for [Ed: soz 90% AoE reduction, mentioned health cos that was what I worked with in the calc] every single class's AoE (at the time) would kill the snakes outright.

But what a great concept! Snakes! Out of a trap! Poisoning ppl! S.O.S - Save Our Snakes

I kind of hope something radical happens between now and MoP and the whole Hunter Trap and Launcher system is radically re-visioned.
Just a quick aside on the snakes: vipers and venemous snakes both have the same hp at L85 now, 123hp. If the glyph reduces the AoE by 90% that means 10% get thru, so if you call the AoE amt, Y, you're comparing:

Snake hp to (0.10 x Y)

In other words, comparing (10x Snake hp) to Y. So effectively your snakes at L85 have 1230 hp... I don't think anyone's AoE is less than that! (It was the same situation at L80 when I first looked at it).
02/17/2012 09:49 PMPosted by Jimindar
Alfavhunter, yep, you've highlighted the weaknesses from a more experienced pvp perspective. The vulnerability of Freeze Trap to dots - praps we need a glyph like the Mage Polymorph one that removes all dots from the Poly target?


back in wrath beta we were promised a damage ceiling for freezing trap, in cata beta camo was actually good, but hay, they like to keep hunters nerfed, cause the top .00000000000000000000000000000000000000...........1% of hunters can actually do well with the class and still kill a good mage, and the devs dont want mages to be killable under any conditions
-edit, "under heavy development", got it. I will await more information then.
i think they're trying to keep monks a secret just to keep us guessing and giving them some ideas to improve them if not that they got something that will be mind blowing
Any comment on Haste for Guardian Druids? Right now it's worthless to us (.02 stat weight) and I don't see much going into Mists that's changing that particular dynamic.
02/17/2012 09:01 PMPosted by Zaelia
and attack speed reduction.

Is getting removed entirely.

02/17/2012 09:01 PMPosted by Zaelia
sometimes you just have to have that movement

Then get Faerie Swarm.

02/17/2012 11:46 PMPosted by Morrie
Any comment on Haste for Guardian Druids? Right now it's worthless to us (.02 stat weight) and I don't see much going into Mists that's changing that particular dynamic.

It's not going to be "as terrible", but it's still not going to be as good as any other secondary stat. Currently the gap between Crit and Exp/Hit/Haste is pretty damn big thanks to white attacks and single roll combat tables.
Can you explain what demonic tactics actually does? I am just wondering what exactly "acting more intelligently" entails.

Can we get confirmation (or denial, or any definitive comment) on Malefic Grasp replacing haunt? If it's not replacing haunt, where has haunt gone? If it is replacing haunt, why?

For demonology, is hand of gul'dan centered on you, on a targeted foe, or on a targeted area of your choice, and what do the charges do?
Also, why does metamorphosis: carrion swarm make shadowflame strictly worse for patchwork fights? I understand a knockback that cost no resources would be powerful, but I am worried about the idea of any class ability going from usable all-around to niche/utility when abilities are supposed to get better as we level up.

In destruction, will havoc now work on single targets (doubling up on spells effectively) or does the fact that it's no longer listed as a bane mean that destruction is getting a new bane which will be effective single target?
Also, is causing damage really the best way to prevent ember abuse? It seems as though it will make destruction more fragile for an effect that could be done with a simple time limit on the ember proc (I should note I really love the flavor of this but I am more worried about the balancing implications for both PVP and PVE).

Will all specs be getting auto wand (now that they're primary weapons)? or just destro?

As a final note, I think the trees look great (despite all my griping). I love that you're trying to provide three truly unique playstyles for the three specs (dot management, melee mage, and mana management). Keep up the good work.
02/17/2012 08:05 PMPosted by Alfavhunter
If you insist. I read it as you saying an AoE stun would be OP, and felt like pointing out that Shockwave is exactly that.

two of the main differences of shockwave is its avoidable by taking 2 steps if in melee range, and it requires a talent point to have, blinding light is baseline

now if they made one of your Tier 90 talents convert blinding light to 'dazaling light' (reduce CD to 2 min, and it becomes a 6 stun) then that would be balanced because it takes a final tier talent point to severly improve the ability, but a baseline aoe stun of 360* is to powerful unless it is a short duration, and 6 seconds is not short in pvp


Spoken like a PvPer. As it is right now, Holy Wrath's stun is 3 seconds with a 15 second cooldown. The only use it possibly has in PvP is against death knight and warlock minions, but that's not a problem. But when I'm in a dungeon full of undead and demons, and have one of my most awesome utility spells taken away that was tailor-made for such baddies, I have a problem with that.

02/17/2012 03:48 PMPosted by Mirrora
Ideally it looks like Blinding Light is supposed to be our new AOE CC. Granted, that is on a 3 min cooldown, but this change isn't anywhere near the falling sky you're making it out to be. Holy Wrath as is is a poorly-designed spell in pretty much every aspect and something needed to be redone.


Having a 3 minute cooldown for an AOE CC would be great... if the things we were interrupting had 3 minute cooldowns on their abilities too. Dungeon bosses get killed in less time than that. If I have to wait 3 minutes to use an ability, I end up never using it because I'll try to save it for when I really need it, but there might be an upcoming moment even worse than this one, so I'll save it for that, until the fight's over and I ended up not using it at all.

As for being poorly designed, it's one of those spells that does more harm to demons and undead than other types of mobs because paladins are the natural enemies of demons and undead! Those types of monsters aren't going to go away in the next expansion. Tell me how keeping mages from getting a hot streak for the next 6 seconds in an arena is a fair tradeoff for not being able to stun the thousands of mobs you fight in ICC, Shadowfang Keep, and hundreds of other zones, dungeons, and raids around the world.

02/17/2012 05:16 PMPosted by Hofleurette
I can comment on whatever I like, the person I quoted made it about Ret when he said Holy Wrath should stay the same for all paladins, and the developers certainly aren't insulting you. It's totally valid feedback that you'll miss your AoE stun, but chill out.


If you'd seen my original statements, you might have noticed my suggestion that prot should keep the ability as it currently exists, while holy could still get the version it's being warped into. When a ret pally says the spell's worthless because its damage is so poor, I can't help but point out that this spell is about utility, not damage. I hardly ever use it as ret myself, and I don't see how the version it's getting deformed into will be useful for anyone but PvP healers.

It's insulting because this ability is being almost completely changed, but we're supposed to believe it's the same because the name hasn't changed. The only similarity between Holy Wrath and Panda Wrath is that they both shoot beams of holy light at anything within 10 yards of the cast point, and that's it. Now it's instant, in Panda it'll have a cast time. Now it stuns certain enemies for 3 seconds, in Panda it'll keep enemies from scoring a critical hit for 6 seconds.

A stun isn't a CC. Blinding something isn't a CC. I use Holy Wrath all the time for interrupting and positioning, not for keeping mobs out of a fight. Come watch me tank just about any 5-man in this expansion and you might get an idea of just how awesome this ability is against the right kind of enemies.

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