Where Cata's 'hard dungeons' went wrong.

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How it happened:

Player base: Please bring back the days of the dungeons where you had to actually coordinate things and CC like it was in BC.

Blizzard: Ok.

Player base: OMG! I'm not used to this! I want my old Wrath facerolling back because I can't figure this out!

Blizzard: Ok, we'll nerf things. Then, when MoP comes out, we're going to "make it like Wrath" (actual quote).

Player base: Great. But now we're going to complain about something else.


The first player base and the second player base are two separate groups of people.

I am perfectly fine with how Cata heroics were at the start.

Your post merely highlights that the devs cannot please everyone. It's true for a lot of things. Unfortunately I feel like they have taken the stance of the casuals at the expense of long time veterans like me. I feel like they abandoned and betrayed the people who have kept their game going for 6-7 years, for the sake of the current influx of new players who only played it for a while.

So that is one of the reasons why I have left the game.
The cata heroics are a joke they are horrid and i refuse to run them .
I think they all need to be rest to wraths level of difficulty .
We are sick of your too hard instas !


Stay in normal dungeons and you should be fine. Normal dungeons are there for a reason. Do them if heroics are too hard. Why do you think it's called "heroic"? Something that you can complete easily?
02/27/2012 10:58 PMPosted by Thugnificênt
It is amazing that players are so bad at this game, which is considered one of the easiest MMO's in existence right now, that they still consider the insultingly easy dungeons that Cataclysm started with as "Difficult". Seriously, this is just ridiculous.


I'm in favor of locking heroics so that people have to grind normal dungeons in order to unlock the heroic modes.

Bring back the revered heroic keys from BC.
The cata heroics are a joke they are horrid and i refuse to run them .
I think they all need to be rest to wraths level of difficulty .
We are sick of your too hard instas !


Stay in normal dungeons and you should be fine. Normal dungeons are there for a reason. Do them if heroics are too hard. Why do you think it's called "heroic"? Something that you can complete easily?


Playing devil's advocate for a moment... there are three normal dungeons. Do you really expect anyone to be happy playing three dungeons for two years?

My argument was never that heroics shouldn't be hard ever; I actually liked most of the boss fights, save the blatantly unfair ones. It was that they were too long and too challenging for a daily chore, and people who are starting to burn out make horrid teammates.

Over the course of these many, many posts, I've come to another conclusion. We can have a dungeon quota to meet the weekly cap -or- we can have long, grueling, challenging heroics. The two don't blend, and both heroics formats are reasonably popular. Is there any way the two might be separated into different events, without one being ignored for being less efficient?

Playing devil's advocate for a moment... there are three normal dungeons. Do you really expect anyone to be happy playing three dungeons for two years?


They don't need to play the same 3 dungeons for 2 years. They just need to play those 3 dungeons long enough to get better gear. Then they move on to heroics. If they lack the skill, then better gear will compensate for it.

Lets face it, people don't do dungeons for fun. When you do dungeons for the umpteenth time, it is for the gear. If people can grit their teeth by repeatedly doing 15-min aoe-fests of WotLK heroics which was in addition to doing it normally for almost a year already, doing normal dungeons for a few months is much easier in comparison.
I don't think it's the dungeons, it's the trolls (not the race).
The only problem is they spoiled the player base with the Wrath dungeons then tried to return to TBC style and it blew up in their face. You could easily be describing Shadow Lab, Arcatraz or Shattered Halls in your post.....or for us old schooler's....Dire Maul, Strat UD, Scholo, LBRS or BRD. Long runs (3 plus hours for each) with lots of complex pulls.

If that model had persisted into Wrath no one would have blinked an eye at the Cata dungeons but you can't make Heroics that people can do during their lunch breaks at work so they can get their Daily done (I've seen it) then expect them to enjoy running content for fun anymore.

Once we had Badges and the requirement to run Heroics like a second job we got LFD and the need for pain free, quickie dungeons.



Timed Strat how I miss it =/
02/27/2012 08:53 PMPosted by Doomthulsa
Some people play just to have fun. You shouldn't have to be the best in order to have fun. That leaves Blizzard with A WHOLE lot less subs then what they have now. A game which will only be catered to "pros" like yourself will not sell.


Does anyone actually enjoy facerolling? It's not fun. Hence this entire thread.

02/27/2012 11:28 PMPosted by Goldbrand
Lets face it, people don't do dungeons for fun. When you do dungeons for the umpteenth time, it is for the gear.


Sometimes me and my friends will go 3 man heroics just for fun. Beating the content when it's actually challenging is a reward that can't be quantified by mere gear score.

02/27/2012 11:23 PMPosted by Blackgoddess
Difficulty SPIKE. We went from everyone facerolling Wrath first-tier heroics in 250+ gear to... well, early Cataclysm, and it was honestly a bit too big a step for many players, like throwing someone from Algebra 101 straight into Advanced Calculus


Or maybe like throwing new players of WoW vanilla into the original dungeons?
Maybe I'm an elitist, but the dungeons at the start of Cata were perfectly tuned, and it was the only time I've had fun in a 5-man since Burning Crusade. I want trash to be dangerous. I want to have the possibility of dying. Many MMO gamers don't realize this, but danger is one of the most important aspects of immersion. Case in point - why does LFR difficulty make Deathwing's defeat seem so anticlimactic?

I disagree with your opinion, OP - I think trash should be engaging, challenging, and offer unique challenges, rather than just being annoying commercial breaks between bosses. Your post resembles very closely the mindset of those who are doing things for the reward rather than the journey. In cases like these, I believe the solution is to make the journey more enjoyable rather than to just nerf, nerf, nerf into boredom.

I'm not even that old (21) but I already feel like I'm part of a dying generation of gamers. The kind that when they lost at something, the automatic thought wasn't "these damn developers, what are they thinking?" but rather "How can I get better? How can I improve? What's the best way to defeat this challenge the designers have put in front of me?".

I personally feel the main problem with this game's direction is that Blizzard is listening to the community too much. Not because I have something against communication, but because honestly people don't know what they want. I'd have considered myself either a "casual" or a "bad" player at every point in WoW until Cataclysm but I was having the most fun when I was getting my butt kicked, and slowly defeating those challenges over the course of the expansion, even though I was humbled to find out that my character wasn't an immortal god like all the NPC's make you out to be. But there was always more content ahead of me, instead of simply beating it all on week 1.
02/28/2012 12:58 AMPosted by Jenzali
Maybe I'm an elitist


Nah, you just enjoy actually playing games.
02/27/2012 11:03 PMPosted by Goldbrand
Bring back the revered heroic keys from BC.


No. I don't want to spend a month in normal VP just to get a key to do Heroic VP. Lock it untill you've done it once is fine with me. Keys? No, never again please.
02/28/2012 01:08 AMPosted by Evirus
Why on earth are people still carrying on about the early Cata heroics?


Because they want to have their voices heard about what they wanna see in Mists, of course :D

02/28/2012 12:58 AMPosted by Jenzali
I was having the most fun when I was getting my butt kicked, and slowly defeating those challenges over the course of the expansion, even though I was humbled to find out that my character wasn't an immortal god like all the NPC's make you out to be. But there was always more content ahead of me, instead of simply beating it all on week 1.


Exactly. Very well said.
02/26/2012 04:16 PMPosted by Atun
TLDR: If someone doesn't like the extra-spicy wings, serve them mild ones, don't tell them they don't deserve to eat at your restaurant.


Normal modes?
02/28/2012 01:11 AMPosted by Akatsuki
Bring back the revered heroic keys from BC.


No. I don't want to spend a month in normal VP just to get a key to do Heroic VP. Lock it untill you've done it once is fine with me. Keys? No, never again please.


You are more than happy to spend months in heroic VP, but somehow a month of normal VP is deemed tedious?

Spending one month in normal VP ensures that people would:
1. know the place before attempting the harder heroic version of it
2. be geared enough for the heroic version

It is almost impossible for you to spend one month in normal VP, without getting better in terms of skill and gear. With better skill and gear, the quality of heroics would be better due to better players.

It is actually a very good feature, which for some reason isn't implemented.
I didn't do dungeons (with few exceptions like the Sunken Temple to finish hunter quest) or raids pre LK. But we enjoyed other parts of the game by then.

I quite enjoyed dungeons and raids at LK as did my friends.

I did few dungeons and not a single raid at Cataclysm (not even Tol Barad, I just felt discouraged by seeing dungeons). My friends left for good.

As goes for Pandaria, I don't care about difficulty of PvE content anymore. After Cataclysm experience, I very much doubt I will want to have anything in common with PvE... I look forward to new Battlegrounds though.

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