PVE Gear

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Glad that the Dev have finally drawn this conclusion. The end of the expansions were just awful for new players to try to get involved since they were so far behind in gear.

Hopefully there will be more active balance changes for pvp in Mists since there does seem to be a genuine attempt for more pvp in the game.
This is what I read:

PvPers shouldnt be able to do PVE.

PVERS however should be able to PvP, even tho they will hit harder than PvPers in PvP enviroment, due their higher Ilevel, PvPers should "Last Longer" because the "new stats" even tho their damage will be lower than PvErs.

In Mists PvP, they both do about the same amount of raw damage to each other, with a slight edge for Jillian. Her power stat offsets Ders's PvE stats. Jillian takes less damage because of her PvP Defense (let’s say it’s 50% damage reduction), but Ders still has 30% damage reduction innately, so he doesn’t blow up either. Again the difference is smaller. If Ders wants to get serious about PvP, he’s eventually going to want PvP gear, and Jillian will want more PvE gear to do PvE.


That's all fine and good for things like shoulders, legs, bracers, etc. However, the real problem with people using PvE gear in PvP comes from weapons (legendary weapons or those with procs like the deawthwing poison dagger) and trinkets (ie: vial, cunning). Even if you make stats weigh differently such that PvP gear is generally better for PvP, that doesn't address the problem with items such as these that provide procs that are amazing for PvP.
Glad that the Dev have finally drawn this conclusion. The end of the expansions were just awful for new players to try to get involved since they were so far behind in gear.

Hopefully there will be more active balance changes for pvp in Mists since there does seem to be a genuine attempt for more pvp in the game.


And for a PvP toon that tries to get into raiding towards the end of an expansion? How are they going to hold his hand?

Three words: Looking for Raid.

I think it really comes down to what Blizzard actually does. The current system would work fine in theory, assuming PvE gear just isn't that powerful. It's the same here. It might work, but it depends entirely on the power of PvE gear. It's kind of useless to argue about until we see it in action.
Nothing that we have asked is being addressed here, besides you wording your original post better.

What is being done about game breaking trinkets and weapons from PvE imbalancing PvP? Because like now, odds are missing 1 piece of PvP gear for a great PvE trinket or weapon isn't going to hurt you as much as you would gain from it and that's what needs to happen. There needs to be a negative affect of wearing even 1 piece of PvE gear in Arena or RBGs or just completely ban it.
03/06/2012 03:35 PMPosted by Gunny
And for a PvP toon that tries to get into raiding towards the end of an expansion? How are they going to hold his hand?


5 man and Valor gear seem to get PvE'rs caught up in a heartbeat. I know many people that had their alts geared up for LFR same day as hitting 85. It isn't near the grind for say a new 85 to get into pvp.

Some napkin math has pvp gear roughly at 21,000+ honor to grind out for a full honor set. You can't tell me that it takes nearly that long to get for the pve side.
So what would you say to the question of single pieces of gear?

What if Cunning of the Cruel was in MoP?

Would it hit considerably less hard on a player than a boss?

It's not like the person will be lacking in PvP Power if all of their other gear is PvP gear right?

Sure, they might not have any extra raw stat for pvp power from the trinket since it's a pve trinket but the dmg is still going to have plenty of PvP Power behind it from pull PvP gear?

So what exactly is going to happen? Will it be the same as it is now? Or is there going to be some new mechanic to stop this from happening?
03/06/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Reygahnci
Ders is in full PvP gear except for one PvE trinket with an extremely overpowered proc in PvP contexts.


So, right now, there isn't an alternative to using awesome PvE gear in PvP. A great PvE trinket beats anything from PvP.

In 5.0 a trinket with PvP stats should beat out a PvE trinket in PvP.
I think most people don't mind PvE gear in PvP, when we're talking about boots, belts, bracers, helms, etc.

The issue is those weapons and trinkets with crazy procs on them. While ridiculously fun in PvE, they tend to be ridiculously unbalanced in PvP.

I guess I'm just concerned that this change won't do much deter those types of items being used, because if the proc is strong enough to outweigh the loss in defense, the same problems will continue to persist.

Obviously there's not any information available about what kinds of weapons and trinkets are on the way, but hopefully, while we've got Daxxarri's attention, he can address these specific concerns.

The rest of the idea sounds good; it's just that it doesn't seem that clear (to me, at least) on how the change will deter the particular troubling items.

EDIT: Daxx beat me to it. Thanks though!

So, right now, there isn't an alternative to using awesome PvE gear in PvP. A great PvE trinket beats anything from PvP.

In 5.0 a trinket with PvP stats should beat out a PvE trinket in PvP.


I guess that's something that will be determined by the scaling of the PvP defensive stat.
The only way I can see PvP weapons being equally good as heroic raiding/legendary weapons is to add an on-use or passive mechanic to each weapon that makes it inherently better in a PvP situation than PvE weapons would be. For example, PvP trinkets could have their cooldown increased to 3 minutes, but having a PvP weapon would reduce the cooldown of one's trinket by a minute. Random suggestion, but it's to get the idea across.

As for PvP trinkets, I feel most of them are underpowered. The periodic-proccing trinkets are unreliable in an environment that required controlled burst, and Battlemaster trinkets are pretty much useless right now.
03/06/2012 03:39 PMPosted by Tonix
And for a PvP toon that tries to get into raiding towards the end of an expansion? How are they going to hold his hand?


5 man and Valor gear seem to get PvE'rs caught up in a heartbeat. I know many people that had their alts geared up for LFR same day as hitting 85. It isn't near the grind for say a new 85 to get into pvp.

Some napkin math has pvp gear roughly at 21,000+ honor to grind out for a full honor set. You can't tell me that it takes nearly that long to get for the pve side.


Not to mention in dungeons/LFR being in PvP gear doesn't mean you get two shot (even as a tank, I tank the HoT's in DPS gear, you should be fine if you know your class). In BG's it's another story.
And what happens when the Dev Team creates another Vial of Shadows or Cunning of the Cruel or Deathbringer's Will

Over-tuned trinkets like those are released every single expansion and are ALWAYS used and abused by players in PvP. PvE gear has upset the balance of PvP ever since Arena was implemented into the game. Arena players were overjoyed when they saw that PVE gear was banned from arena on the Cataclysm beta, but then that restriction was removed.

Imagine all of the balance issues that could be avoided if you just re-banned PvE gear from arena. Vial of Shadows would not have been such a massive issue. The Human racial would not still be such a massive issue, Cunning of the Cruel would not still be such a massive issue.

So many players are being excluded from rated battlegrounds simply because they don't possess a Cunning of the Cruel trinket. It's really sad, and PvP 'Power' is not going to stop players from using the awfully overpowered trinkets that you spit out at us.

PvP damage trinkets are very boring, and so much less potent than PvE trinkets. Unless you slap a significantly substantial damage boost to all PvP trinkets, then I don't see how they could possibly convince players to stop using things like the trinkets I linked above.

Just ban them.
Now do we have to wait til 5.0 until these changes take effect? Or any other temp solution?

Or will PvE trinks/weps remain supreme in PvP for months to come.
So, essentially... the changes do nothing to reduce the barrier to entry of PvE->PVP
Instead they only work to make it easier for PvPers to enter PvE.


There are many ways to get PvE gear. Regular instances, heroic instances, crafted items, vendor items, and older raid tiers (after the initial tier of an expansion.) There are not so many ways to get PvP gear: Crafted items, vendor items, PvP.

With resilience having an impact on offensive stats aswell, PvE gear will not be as OP in PvP.
03/06/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Ders is in full PvP gear except for one PvE trinket with an extremely overpowered proc in PvP contexts.


So, right now, there isn't an alternative to using awesome PvE gear in PvP. A great PvE trinket beats anything from PvP.

In 5.0 a trinket with PvP stats should beat out a PvE trinket in PvP.

The raw stats would suggest this is right but procs suggest this is wrong.

Cunning of the Cruel in MoP, from what you have said, would provide something akin to SP or Int right now, where a PvP trinket would provide PvP Power and PvP Defense.

Someone with a PvP trinket would take less damage and do more dmg to players, but someone with Cunning would have a proc that ended up doing a Considerable amount of their DPS. Their survivability loss would be minimal but their dmg, especially in an RBG setting, would skyrocket.

What mechanic is going to stop this from happening?
03/06/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Ders is in full PvP gear except for one PvE trinket with an extremely overpowered proc in PvP contexts.


So, right now, there isn't an alternative to using awesome PvE gear in PvP. A great PvE trinket beats anything from PvP.

In 5.0 a trinket with PvP stats should beat out a PvE trinket in PvP.


How exactly is that possible? A statement like this makes me think you don't understand exactly how good a trinket like cunning is. If it had 0 passive stats it would still be better than any other trinket in a large scale PvP setting (ie: rbgs, normal bgs, tol barad).
03/06/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Daxxarri
In 5.0 a trinket with PvP stats should beat out a PvE trinket in PvP.


I'm hoping this ends up true, but I'm still worried about PvE gear having a higher ilvl than PvP gear.

Will the difference in ilvl be similar to that on Live? Where PvP gear is at an ilvl in-between normal and heroic raiding gear? Normal raiding gear is 397 ilvl, Cataclysmic PvP gear is ilvl 403 and heroic raiding gear is ilvl 410. Will this sound about right in Mists of Pandaria?
This is what I read:

PvPers shouldnt be able to do PVE.

PVERS however should be able to PvP, even tho they will hit harder than PvPers in PvP enviroment, due their higher Ilevel, PvPers should "Last Longer" because the "new stats" even tho their damage will be lower than PvErs.


I don't think so. Imagine this was the case in Cataclysm. Top end PvE gear would ilvl 410, while top end PvP gear would 397. A 397 PvP piece might be exactly the same as a 397 PvE piece, but the PvP one has PvP only stats on top of that.

What this (hopefully!) means is that top end PvP gear should be about the same as average PvE gear, while top end PvE gear should be about the same as average PvP gear.

At least, that's what I think they mean.

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