Hail's Guide to Sub PvE (5.4)

Rogue
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Stay calm and kill hunters.
Hail this is for you:

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-kill-hunters.png
Holy crap thank you I love you!
Is it coincidence that the background is the rogue color? Also I thought you used a priest on forums.
02/10/2013 03:22 PMPosted by Haileaus
Is it coincidence that the background is the rogue color?


Nope ;)

02/10/2013 03:22 PMPosted by Haileaus
Also I thought you used a priest on forums.


/lazy

At this point I don't care which toon I use. I might as well use this one since it is one of the two 90's I have.
Nice!
When refreshing our finishers is it a dps loss to refresh rupture and slice and dice at 8 seconds left or wait till about 2-4 seconds?

Also when using the subterfuge talent as subtlety do I treat it as shadow dance? Because I've been waiting till I have both rupture and SnD at 15+seconds. Vanish>premed+ambush>hemo>eviscerate>ambush.
02/20/2013 12:07 AMPosted by Fortenbraz
When refreshing our finishers is it a dps loss to refresh rupture and slice and dice at 8 seconds left or wait till about 2-4 seconds?

It is a dps loss to refresh Rupture and SnD when its duration is 2 secs or greater, and of course when it is at under 0 secs (i.e. it faded). This is because the next tick is added to the duration when it is refreshed, and SnD/Rupt tick every 2 secs.

Or in other words... 0sec = 1sec > 2sec = 3sec > 4sec...

02/20/2013 12:07 AMPosted by Fortenbraz
Also when using the subterfuge talent as subtlety do I treat it as shadow dance? Because I've been waiting till I have both rupture and SnD at 15+seconds. Vanish>premed+ambush>hemo>eviscerate>ambush.

Yeah but you would only hemo if the bleed has faded, and you shouldn't be using hemo in SnD since Ambush will yield way more damage.
Posted by Fortenbraz
Also when using the subterfuge talent as subtlety do I treat it as shadow dance? Because I've been waiting till I have both rupture and SnD at 15+seconds. Vanish>premed+ambush>hemo>eviscerate>ambush.

Yeah but you would only hemo if the bleed has faded, and you shouldn't be using hemo in SnD since Ambush will yield way more damage.

Ah, sorry that rotation was only for when I vanish not while I'm dancing.
I like having the last post in my stickie so I can best know when a new post comes so...yeah.
Hypothetical scenario:

If I am attacking a target, and there is a bleed effect on it, lets say garrote, and I hit the target with CT... Does that mean that the direct hit plus the DoT component of CT are going to be doing a 16% more dmg? Is the DoT component of CT independent and static, this means, it will consider itself as a bleed effect and the DoTs will be just the 30% of initial dmg distributed over time with the chance of seeing crits, with no change in its numbers if, for example, the garrote effect expires on the target?

On a different note,

How is sub going to do against the other specs in 5.2? I hear a lot of noise about Combat and Mut, with their numbers being tweaked while subtlety simply got the 16% to 20% increase from SV. Some ppl say that combat will be the spec to go due to the 4 pc set and its now improved single target dps. Others praise the increase in the direct dmg of envenom and dispatch, but there is very little mention about the viability of sub rogues in a PvE environment, restricted exclusively to raids.
02/23/2013 02:28 PMPosted by Vallagard
If I am attacking a target, and there is a bleed effect on it, lets say garrote, and I hit the target with CT... Does that mean that the direct hit plus the DoT component of CT are going to be doing a 16% more dmg?

If you use CT against a target with no bleed on it it will do its initial damage without the SV buff, as the bleed (and thus SV) is applied after the initial hit. Because the bleed is based off of the initial damage of CT, it will do less damage. However, the bleed itself *should* be increased by SV. I say should because there haven't been tests on CT specifically, but Rupture and Garrote ticks are increased by the SV it applies and there's no reason CT should be any different. To reiterate, you want to use CT when a bleed is on the target so that the initial hit will be higher, doing more initial damage and increasing the base damage of its DoT, which will gain the benefit of SV.

02/23/2013 02:28 PMPosted by Vallagard
How is sub going to do against the other specs in 5.2?

Honestly...I really wish I knew. The way sub is modeled is extremely questionable (the spec is very hard to model and not much time has been put into it), so models are not the best way of going about finding the spec's worth relative to others. Similarly, WoL is extremely biased for reasons that should be obvious. Generally speaking, it is very hard to say what kind of damage sub will do, as the best we can do is check how well we individually play each spec, which of course is way too small of a sample size to count.

That said, we can infer a decent amount from Blizzard's actions.

1) They buffed Assassination and Combat recently, but not sub. This implies that in Bliz's eyes, Sub doesn't need a buff. There is a great deal of evidence saying that Bliz has models/sims that are extremely accurate, and thus the buffs to the other specs suggest that sub is where Bliz wants it. Since a lot of people have mentioned that sub is lacking outside of single target encounters, and the buffs to other specs have been exclusively single target buffs, it seems reasonable to assume sub's single target dps was what was ahead, and may well still be slightly ahead.

2) The buff to SV is really good. Not exactly sure on the numbers, but the buff to SV should be a much bigger buff to sub's damage than the buff Assassination got. It is also a lot better than the ~5% increase to combat's AP, though I'm not sure how it will compare to the ~10% increase should that go live.

3) 30% agility bonus. This makes us scale well. How well? Hard to say.

4) They are not done tweeking. This means we may see more info on any of the specs, though I can't say I have any ideas as to what will happen.

In general I think sub's problems lie not with single target dps, but with lack of strengths outside of single target dps, which makes it a lot less appealing. Generally single target dps has been very well balanced since Cata, and there's no reason that shouldn't be the case now.

A quick note regarding SB set bonus and how it will impact out dps: I don't know, and haven't heard anything about it. Maybe I'll ask about it on EJ, and if I missed something than it would be very useful to hear it. Also once I fix some bugs with my own simulator I should be able to answer some questions about optimal CD usage.
There was an error in the way I was calculating autoattacks which makes these results irrelevant. Actual ones will be in another post!

READ THE FULL POST AND DON'T TAKE WHAT I SAY TO BE ABSOLUTE FACT!

If you trust my simulator, it seems like if you have the t15 4pc bonus (SB reduces energy cost by 40%) then it is best to overlap SB with FW as the increased yellow damage during FW outweighs the lack of benefit FW gives to white hits.

***HOWEVER***

It is worth noting that my sim is by no means perfect. The % of damage done by each ability is within 5% of what I'm getting on my parses, but autoattack damage seems a bit high (worth noting that if autoattack damage were lower benefit of stacking CDs would be increased) and the hemo DoT is not working at all. Also, some things like procs are NYI, but those should not affect the verdict on CD usage.

EDIT: For the record the difference between stacking SB with ShD/Vanish v. not stacking the CDs is only a 1.7% dps difference. This is with 300 second (5 min) fights, averaging dps over 5000 fights. Both the min and max values for dps were higher for stacking CDs than the min and max values for keeping them separate.

EDIT 2: According to my sim it seems like stacking SB with other CDs without any set bonus does not significantly affect dps, nor does switching the order of SB and Vanish when using them exclusively. This could very well mean there is something wrong with the sim! Specifically, the fact that SB autoattack damage appears to be higher when stacking is very fishy, as the only way there should be any change is if it is being used lots during MoS, and even then the change is over 10%.

Here's the results of my tests if you want to analyze them, but note that THEY ARE WRONG:

Normal SB code:

elif(self.shdwbldsCDTime == 0 and self.fwTime == 0 and self.mosTime == 0 and self.shdCDTime > 12 and self.stealth == False and self.cp < 2):
self.shadowBlades()

Stacking SB Code:
elif(self.shdwbldsCDTime == 0 and self.shdCDTime > 12 and self.cp < 2):
self.shadowBlades()

____________4PC, SB before Vanish____________

Average DPS: 58163.9930663

Min DPS: 53512.3131548 Max DPS: 63423.9082745

++++ABILITIY PERCENTAGES++++
Backstab: 0.15836605717
Hemo (direct): 0.0306173400214
Hemo (DoT): 0.0
Ambush: 0.0993620059379
Garrote: 0.0
Rupture: 0.0184935703485
Eviscerate: 0.228662841773
MH Autoattack: 0.197429737692
OH Autoattack: 0.0915846710454
SB MH Autoattack: 0.00713005515109
SB OH Autoattack: 0.00332620280053
Instant Poison: 0.0655568390294
Deadly Poison: 0.0994706790315

____________4PC, Vanish before SB____________

Average DPS: 58214.3697175

Min DPS: 53825.3073198 Max DPS: 63578.5067903

++++ABILITIY PERCENTAGES++++
Backstab: 0.157792221449
Hemo (direct): 0.0309136848365
Hemo (DoT): 0.0
Ambush: 0.100450245473
Garrote: 0.0
Rupture: 0.0185066356818
Eviscerate: 0.228365723379
MH Autoattack: 0.197381357038
OH Autoattack: 0.0914907907265
SB MH Autoattack: 0.00694092154974
SB OH Autoattack: 0.00323203487989
Instant Poison: 0.0654661956728
Deadly Poison: 0.0994601893132

____________4PC, SB during Vanish and ShD____________

Average DPS: 59190.4075531

Min DPS: 54055.4601156 Max DPS: 64061.8532766

++++ABILITIY PERCENTAGES++++
Backstab: 0.15476454158
Hemo (direct): 0.0301848900225
Hemo (DoT): 0.0
Ambush: 0.105633092995
Garrote: 0.0
Rupture: 0.0182052123443
Eviscerate: 0.231508810135
MH Autoattack: 0.193643555472
OH Autoattack: 0.0900332134927
SB MH Autoattack: 0.00911979569478
SB OH Autoattack: 0.00426263871713
Instant Poison: 0.0645324196736
Deadly Poison: 0.0981118298719

____________4PC, SB during Vanish____________

Average DPS: 58841.1752519

Min DPS: 53697.8445709 Max DPS: 63173.3754531

++++ABILITIY PERCENTAGES++++
Backstab: 0.156010164482
Hemo (direct): 0.0302442128481
Hemo (DoT): 0.0
Ambush: 0.102969928172
Garrote: 0.0
Rupture: 0.018206178491
Eviscerate: 0.231243267082
MH Autoattack: 0.194766547357
OH Autoattack: 0.090311306369
SB MH Autoattack: 0.00870622383427
SB OH Autoattack: 0.00406342890406
Instant Poison: 0.064972706262
Deadly Poison: 0.0985060361994

*******************NO 4PC BONUS!*******************

____________Vanish before SB____________

Average DPS: 57280.550212

Min DPS: 52935.1346992 Max DPS: 62042.3564003

++++ABILITIY PERCENTAGES++++
Backstab: 0.153196302094
Hemo (direct): 0.0315204206029
Hemo (DoT): 0.0
Ambush: 0.100397319451
Garrote: 0.0
Rupture: 0.0187872208401
Eviscerate: 0.225429726433
MH Autoattack: 0.200460266704
OH Autoattack: 0.0930220873149
SB MH Autoattack: 0.00704448753888
SB OH Autoattack: 0.00328612177965
Instant Poison: 0.0659387787371
Deadly Poison: 0.100917268504

____________SB before Vanish____________

Average DPS: 57189.1226966

Min DPS: 52243.678447 Max DPS: 61592.6670767

++++ABILITIY PERCENTAGES++++
Backstab: 0.153634404185
Hemo (direct): 0.0313296670548
Hemo (DoT): 0.0
Ambush: 0.09994181807
Garrote: 0.0
Rupture: 0.0187519718528
Eviscerate: 0.224712541185
MH Autoattack: 0.20058058657
OH Autoattack: 0.0930406424157
SB MH Autoattack: 0.00728883025348
SB OH Autoattack: 0.00338869106604
Instant Poison: 0.066217400953
Deadly Poison: 0.101113446394

____________SB during Vanish and ShD____________

Average DPS: 57504.3280555

Min DPS: 52745.9869918 Max DPS: 62077.2482925

++++ABILITIY PERCENTAGES++++
Backstab: 0.154388284786
Hemo (direct): 0.0304426738754
Hemo (DoT): 0.0
Ambush: 0.0996560170241
Garrote: 0.0
Rupture: 0.0185573774794
Eviscerate: 0.224431167309
MH Autoattack: 0.199502354126
OH Autoattack: 0.0925761014842
SB MH Autoattack: 0.009399787339
SB OH Autoattack: 0.00438410744666
Instant Poison: 0.0659310599947
Deadly Poison: 0.100731069136
Hail - is your sim available to play with yet (or are you still working on your final year project?)
As a school project it was done in December.

I'm not ready to share my Sim quite yet as some things aren't implemented. Specifically procs and buffs.
Check that you aren't applying armor mitigation calculations to white swings during shadowblades, that could be responsible for what you are seeing.
Hmmm, good call. I had them switched so shadowblades was using armor and normal was ignoring. All of the other behavior (glancing, hit chance) was correct but wow damn now I gotta do all those results again!
How long does a 5000 iteration run take?
300 sec per simulation, 5000 iterations takes about 57 seconds.

If you are wondering about the lack of new data then it is because it doesn't make sense and I need to debug. Basically I'm getting the best thing you can do being not having the T15 4pc bonus, which is obviously wrong. Gonna change the code so that I can get the durations of each buff as well as SV, though of course the relevant buff is SB.
Its easy to add that mind you, just have gotten distracted and started playing WoW :p.

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