Dual-Wielding 2.6 speed weapons.

Rogue
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Also if it has the same stats/swing time as a dagger, how would that change anything? It wouldn't make other classes want to use it, it would just be for looks.

Oh, I misunderstood. You don't want to take existing 2.6-speed weapons and make them be 1.4-speed; you just want to make it a miserable experience for me to buy things from vendors by throwing an extra half-dozen options in there. :)

Your argument is alluring, definitely. I hear its siren song. It calls to me. But this still feels like it'd be a clunky solution to an aesthetic complaint. Unless I'm still mistaken, you're essentially suggesting that every weapon have four skins -- that there be a single "mother weapon" that has, let's just say, +500 stamina, +400 agility, +200 haste, +200 mastery, 2000-3000 base damage and a 1.8 weapon speed. And that this "mother weapon" has a dagger version, an axe version, a sword version, a mace version, and a fist version?

We're still talking about programming time, at the very least, that has to go into something like this. And then you open up a new host of questions: How often should this level of aesthetic flexibility be available? How would people get them? (Drops? Valor? Conquest? Quest reward? Some other system?) Why do something like this specifically for Combat rogue offhands, but not offer something similar for, say, Enhancement shammies who want to be able to look like they're dual-wielding 2.6-speed swords? Or Fury warriors who want to be able to look like they're using daggers in each hand? Where do the aesthetic options stop? Does every single weapon in the game suddenly have to have 10 different models for it?

I'm taking this example to a bit of an extreme, but my point is that this is a slippery-slope kind of idea, and that the amount of programming time required to resolve it still feels to me like it's asking for a lot of work in exchange for little benefit.
They should just add a minor Glyph which gives your off hand weapon identical appearance to your main hand weapon.
of course the transmoggable option for melee weapon is definantly a much better idea, especially if I heard correctly and they are thinking about letting us transmog to legendaries in the future.
Another idea would be to have something similar to a fury warrior. Currently they can chose to do titan's grip or Single minded fury.

Would be cool if we had a choice to either do a 1.8 dagger offhand, or a 2.6 sword/mace/axe.
04/06/2012 07:55 AMPosted by Brolectro
To be fair. Caera used ad hominem *and* appeal to popularity.
I used neither, sir. I stated the OP used ad hominem. And I have no need to appeal to anything except logic.
"Clear sign of an argument without merit."-Caera
You seem to have conveniently left out the preceeding portion where I state attacking me personally is the clear sign of an argument without merit. An ad hominem. Which is exactly what trying to rebutt my comments by stating I'm only making them "in compensation" is. The OP's assessment of why I made a comment has no bearing on the validity of said comment whatever.

Your summarization of this thread is even further off-base. I'm just too tired of this thread to bother going over the errors.
04/06/2012 10:39 AMPosted by Caera
The OP's assessment of why I made a comment has no bearing on the validity of said comment whatever.


But you never made a comment on what you think about game mechanics, instead you talked about real life scenario and spent a good amount of time flaming me.

You are 403 ilvl, 6/8 heroic, and have your legendary daggers. Obviously you have some experience with the Rogue in a raiding scenario.

How do you feel about the general direction of the class? Are you satisfied that we have been forced to play combat for the last 2 tiers just for a cleave? In firelands we needed it on domo and ryolith. In DS, cleave is needed for heroic yor, heroic zonozz, does better on hagara because you can cleave the iceblocks, and a must for heroic warmaster.

Dont you feel it would be better to remove the cleave, or just put it back on CD w/ duration, and buff our fan of knives to still do competative aoe dps rather then just force us to be combat for raiding?
04/06/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Corayo
But you never made a comment on what you think about game mechanics, instead you talked about real life scenario
I explained the real-life scenario the spec's design is based off of, since you called into question the validity of that scenario from an offensive standpoint. Since I never spoke out negatively about it, it's fairly safe to assume I approve - which I do.

04/06/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Corayo
How do you feel about the general direction of the class?
I've gone into this at great length. Some of the more pertinent points for what I thought should be kept and what needed redress can be found here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2369743517?page=8#141

04/06/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Corayo
Are you satisfied that we have been forced to play combat for the last 2 tiers just for a cleave?
It was for more than just the cleaves. Combat had the best, unrestricted single-target DPS through all of T12. The mechanics of T13 are just making more allowances to let Subtlety stretch its legs on the field. I personally enjoy Assassination most, though it isn't without its faults either.

04/06/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Corayo
In firelands we needed it on domo and ryolith.
And Sub was excellent on Baleroc. Different mechanics play to different specs. By-and-large, Firelands was Combat-centric. Assassination was outscaled, and the mechanics just didn't mesh at all well with Subtlety. So it's not to say it's all Combat's fault for how T12 went down from a rogue perspective.

04/06/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Corayo
In DS, cleave is needed for heroic yor, heroic zonozz
Subtlety is incredibly viable for both of these fights. In fact, it's the spec I use for both. It all depends on raid comp and strat.

04/06/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Corayo
does better on hagara because you can cleave the iceblocks
Sub here also. Iceblocks are a non-issue. So many multi-dot and cleave classes running around, it can free rogues up to utilize Sub's better burst on shorter CDs to take full advantage of Hagara's Feedback debuff. ShS'ing Ice Waves is fun too.

04/06/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Corayo
and a must for heroic warmaster.
And Sub is a must for Heroic Spine.

04/06/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Corayo
Dont you feel it would be better to remove the cleave, or just put it back on CD w/ duration
No.

04/06/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Corayo
nd buff our fan of knives to still do competative aoe dps
They're already doing this without gutting Blade Flurry. It even generates CP now.

04/06/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Corayo
rather then just force us to be combat for raiding?
We're hardly 'forced' into being Combat. In the 8 fights in Heroic Dragon Soul, I only do 2 as Combat.

End of the day, heroic level progression means playing whatever spec, whatever rotation, whatever gets the job done. It isn't always guaranteed to be what we consider the most fun spec, rotation, etc.. We have it easy. For a druid, for sake of example, this could mean playing melee DPS, ranged DPS, healer, or a tank. Possibly mix-and-matching all within the same raid. Whether you're a particular fan of any or all of those roles doesn't matter. At a competitive level of play you're expected to be fully proficient with every facet of your class and ready to go at a moments notice in whatever role is required to get the job done.


Please do not try to pose opinion as fact. It falls down to what your are capable of, there is no universal truth.


Except Caera was right. Go grab two equal length sticks and swing them around for a few minutes. It is incredibly awkward.
It was for more than just the cleaves. Combat had the best, unrestricted single-target DPS through all of T12. The mechanics of T13 are just making more allowances to let Subtlety stretch its legs on the field. I personally enjoy Assassination most, though it isn't without its faults either.


Different mechanics play to different specs. By-and-large, Firelands was Combat-centric. Assassination was outscaled, and the mechanics just didn't mesh at all well with Subtlety. So it's not to say it's all Combat's fault for how T12 went down from a rogue perspective.


before 4.3 came out, but after 6/7 heroic was on farm, I ended up trying out assassination again (hadnt been assassination since 4.2 was released) to see if it was really that bad. My guild wouldn't let me before because they wanted my cleave, but since it was farm anyways I eventualy got to. I did as much dps on shannox/beth/baleroc as assassination as I did as combat. I about the same on ryolith if I aoe'd adds which seemed to help the group more then cleaving his other foot. On Alys, I killed my adds a lot quicker due to better burst and faster CP generation to get a quick kidney shot on them. I even did better dps on ragnaros as assassination than I did as combat. I dont think assassination was really that *bad* it just had a stigma of not being the cleave spec. Domo was the only fight I didn't do as good on as assassination.

04/06/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Corayo
nd buff our fan of knives to still do competative aoe dps
They're already doing this without gutting Blade Flurry. It even generates CP now.


didn't see that update, very happy to hear ^_^

04/06/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Corayo
In DS, cleave is needed for heroic yor, heroic zonozz
Subtlety is incredibly viable for both of these fights. In fact, it's the spec I use for both. It all depends on raid comp and strat.


End of the day, heroic level progression means playing whatever spec, whatever rotation, whatever gets the job done. It isn't always guaranteed to be what we consider the most fun spec, rotation, etc.. We have it easy. For a druid, for sake of example, this could mean playing melee DPS, ranged DPS, healer, or a tank. Possibly mix-and-matching all within the same raid. Whether you're a particular fan of any or all of those roles doesn't matter. At a competitive level of play you're expected to be full proficient with every facet of your class and ready to go at a moments notice in whatever role is required to get the job done.


I have never encountered a situation where I needed to change spec in order to perform my roll as a rogue. Sub is viable yes, but on world of logs combat ranks equal to sub on heroic zonozz and hagara, and ranks higher then sub on every other fight. From a min/max perspective there is no point in playing sub.


Please do not try to pose opinion as fact. It falls down to what your are capable of, there is no universal truth.

Except Caera was right. Go grab two equal length sticks and swing them around for a few minutes. It is incredibly awkward.


Once again this is opinion. It may feel awkward to you, but not to someone else. ^_^
04/06/2012 12:18 PMPosted by Corayo
but on world of logs combat ranks higher equal to sub on heroic zonozz and hagara,
The specs are within a few percent of each other on single-target. It isn't DPS that determines which spec is used. It's the utility differences between them.

04/06/2012 12:18 PMPosted by Corayo
and ranks higher then sub on every other figh
Morchok and Spine would like to disagree there.

04/06/2012 12:18 PMPosted by Corayo
From a min/max perspective there is no point in playing sub.
There's a huge reason to do it depending on strat, comp, and encounter.
Once again this is opinion. It may feel awkward to you, but not to someone else. ^_^
No, it's actually a matter of simple physics and kinesthetics. This is the entire reason weapons like parrying daggers came into existence. They fell out of use, ironically, for the exact same reasons. The smaller the size, the easier it was to work with and the better one could control the main blade by correlation. However, no second blade offered even more control to a single main blade.

It really is a simple test. Attempt to swing two 3 foot sticks around with speed, accuracy, and precision. Then simply replace the off-hand stick with a 1 foot version, you should immediately see a dramatic increase in control. Then eliminate the second stick altogether, not the difference in stance this allows. Do so in front a mirror and you should see with a single blade that you also have the benefit of presenting a smaller target to strike back at.
04/06/2012 12:18 PMPosted by Corayo
and ranks higher then sub on every other figh
Morchok and Spine would like to disagree there.


check out WoL ...

H-Morchok Combat: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Dragon_Soul/Morchok/10H/Combat_Rogue/

H-Morchok Sub:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Dragon_Soul/Morchok/10H/Subtlety_Rogue/

H-Spine Combat:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Dragon_Soul/Spine_of_Deathwing/10H/Combat_Rogue/

H-Spine Sub: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Dragon_Soul/Spine_of_Deathwing/10H/Subtlety_Rogue/
check out WoL ...

H-Morchok Combat: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Dragon_Soul/Morchok/10H/Combat_Rogue/

H-Morchok Sub:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Dragon_Soul/Morchok/10H/Subtlety_Rogue/
Taking advantage of the nerfs to cleave both bosses. Cheesing Blizzard's cheesing of the encounters.
H-Spine Combat:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Dragon_Soul/Spine_of_Deathwing/10H/Combat_Rogue/

H-Spine Sub: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Dragon_Soul/Spine_of_Deathwing/10H/Subtlety_Rogue/
The only thing that mattered on Spine (pre ridiculous nerfs) was Tendon burst. Overall DPS, cleaving blood, etc didn't mean anything if you couldn't burst down the Tendon. Subtlety rogue is one of, if not the best spec in the game at that.
@Caera

You implied his stupidity several times throughout the thread and used the "everyone else agrees with me" argument.

I don't blame you for being tired of this thread but don't accuse me of lying.
daggers is awesome :)
Note to self: Don't get into a sword fight with Caera.
04/06/2012 12:50 PMPosted by Rfeann
Don't get into a


04/06/2012 12:50 PMPosted by Rfeann
fight with Caera.
H-Spine Combat:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Dragon_Soul/Spine_of_Deathwing/10H/Combat_Rogue/

H-Spine Sub: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Dragon_Soul/Spine_of_Deathwing/10H/Subtlety_Rogue/
The only thing that mattered on Spine (pre ridiculous nerfs) was Tendon burst. Overall DPS, cleaving blood, etc didn't mean anything if you couldn't burst down the Tendon. Subtlety rogue is one of, if not the best spec in the game at that.


Yea you are right there, sub was much better for combat pre nerf and tendon damage is really all that matters. but that is one fight out of 8 that sub really shined over combat. Everything else was about equal or in combat's favor

04/06/2012 12:32 PMPosted by Caera
Taking advantage of the nerfs to cleave both bosses. Cheesing Blizzard's cheesing of the encounters.


just the fact that it can be done...Either way, I believe that our spec can be improved. As I suggested before, I think it would be great to have a talent that makes sinister strike attack with both weapons, and allow us to effectivly use a sword in the offhand regardless of if it make sense in real life. This a fantasy game afterall and I think it would make the game a lot more fun for everyone if we had the choice.

And for people telling me to reroll... I have an 85 of every class except for a DK that is 81. I just plain love my rogue the most.
04/06/2012 12:57 PMPosted by Corayo
As I suggested before, I think it would be great to have a talent that makes sinister strike attack with both weapons


Assassination, Combat, and Sub already play exactly the same way in MoP so the last thing we need is for SS to literally become Mutilate in functionality. Passive rogue damage being too high is already a major issue, getting more "free" damage just from standing there should not be on the table.

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