Heroic Spine and T12 2pc

Rogue
Let me fill you in on the situation. I have 5pc T12 but only one of them (pants) is the heroic version. For H spine would it be worth using the 391 pants with the 378 gloves or am I better off sticking with the higher ilvl gear for this encounter? Shadow Craft has it as ~200 more DPS using the 2 set but seeing as H spine is all about the burst is the 2pc worth the ilvl loss and the loss of the extended dance or nah?
When we were first attempting Spine, I had had decided to use heroic T12 2P (chest/legs, as I didn't have enough heroic T13 pieces to use H T12 shoulders/gloves) instead of T13 4P. IIRC, my two piece bonus only did like 45k worth of damage to the Tendon. It didn't seem to be worth it, so I ended up just using T13 4P for the extra agi and up time on ShD.

Have you made pulls yet? I see you have the VP trinket but don't seem to be reforged for Spine correctly. Haste > Crit > Hit (up to spell cap) > mastery > Expertise is the stat priority, IIRC. Also, my current Sub spec is the bread and butter Sub Spine spec. I apologize ahead of time if you were already aware of those things and just haven't pulled Spine yet.

I had just got Spine down last night, so hopefully more experienced Rogues will chime in to help as well.
Have you made pulls yet? I see you have the VP trinket but don't seem to be reforged for Spine correctly. Haste > Crit > Hit (up to spell cap) > mastery > Expertise is the stat priority, IIRC. Also, my current Sub spec is the bread and butter Sub Spine spec. I apologize ahead of time if you were already aware of those things and just haven't pulled Spine yet.


I am aware but when I spoke to my raid leader he preferred if I kept my expertise because there where some DPS issues with the Amalgamations. I didn't know if the spec would still be worth it without the forge but tonight I plan on trying it (as my hit will still be well above the 8% without reforging). The reason I asked is because a new raider we brought in (tonight will be his first night) showed me a video about spine rotations. The video referenced the mmo-champ post where the spec and strat are listed. The video went on to say upon reviewing his logs the T12 2pc accounted for roughly 1 million damage by itself. This to me sounded completely made up so I wanted to see what other peoples experiences have shown. I appreciate the input.
Was the 2P damage from the entire fight, or was it just on tendons? Your personal Amalg damage is mostly irrelevant, although do you know why Amalg damage was low at all? Not enough people on it? I know you're in a 25 man guild (I assume, looking at your number of kills on bosses), but for us, it took a bit to find a good balance of having the right amount of people on the Amalg, bloods, and when to switch from the Amalg to the bloods. We eventually found a good rhythm in which DPS would stop on the Amalg around 1 million and I would bring it down to about 300k on my own.
This is my guild's last night wipes log on Spine, I'm using Shoulders/Hands HT12 and a spine-oriented reforging. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-xk6yiugkfkw8aqvf/details/51/?enc=wipes&boss=53879 Keep in mind we only made it to 2-1, so there are only like 2 tries when I used my pot, no BL included. In one of those (2-1) tries, I ended up with 4M+ on tendons.

As you can see, almost on every try my Burning Wounds did an average of 5.2k on tendons (sometimes they ticked about 6k avg) while my average Ambush was 58.7k. But in your case, we are talking about droping a Heroic T13 for a Normal T12, in that scenario I'd keep my T13H mostly because of their stats.

I hope a more knowledgeable can help you with a more solid answer, so take my response with a grain of salt.
The problem you're going to run into running 2/2 is that the proc from your biggest hits (ambush under FW) overwrite each other (Aka dot clipping). Getting one extra Amb/Evisc out under FW is more than the damage of the dot over those ~22 seconds.

The reason his log is showing 1M damage is because he was sitting on an amalgam when he wasn't doing tendons..... A good rogue in 10s does around 6-7M Tendon damage over six lifts.

The pros are running Glyphed ShD with 4pc t13 for a reason.
If you are worried about the tendon burst there is more to do than worry about than that set bonus. It's small in the overall picture of the fight. 1 million sounds totally made up. Maybe he meant 100k? Let's do the math: The 2pc t12 is a dot that is 6% of your crit damage. For a 1 million dot, he'd need to be doing nearly 17 million crit damage on the tendon. Let's be generous and say he crits 50% of the time. His non-crits would then account for another 8.5 million damage making it 25.5 million total damage before the dot, 26.5 million after. I'm skeptical. My first kill spec'd and geared totally for tendon burst (4pc t13) around 7 million total tendon damage on 10 man.

H Spine is less about burst on the tendons now, with all the nerfs, than getting the amalgs down quickly and shortening the length overall encounter to make it easier on your healers and the tank who is kiting. If your raid still needs to focus on tendon burst reforging and respecing specifically to burst will do way more than the 2pc t12 bonus which is devalued anyways because it's a dot and you lose the last part of it when the plate collapses/flies off. If the tendons are blocking you at this point I think your other raiders need to be looking at their play and what they can also do to burst.

I just play the standard sub spec on the fight now for balancing dps on the amalg with the tendon. You can play combat as well for comparable damage provided you can get AR up for each tendon. Sub is nice for the rolling recup and the healing debuff.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I'd use the 2pc t12, but not because it helps with the tendons because it doesn't. I'd use it to help with the amalgs.
03/29/2012 02:12 PMPosted by Belisarious
The problem you're going to run into running 2/2 is that the proc from your biggest hits (ambush under FW) overwrite each other (Aka dot clipping).


This is untrue, the dot works just like deep wounds does for warriors. When it gets reapplied the remaining damage from the existing ticks just get rolled into the new dot.
Pretty sure the 4 piece is higher damage as it allows more ambushes and 2 more secs or find weakness uptime
Was the 2P damage from the entire fight, or was it just on tendons? Your personal Amalg damage is mostly irrelevant, although do you know why Amalg damage was low at all? Not enough people on it? I know you're in a 25 man guild (I assume, looking at your number of kills on bosses), but for us, it took a bit to find a good balance of having the right amount of people on the Amalg, bloods, and when to switch from the Amalg to the bloods. We eventually found a good rhythm in which DPS would stop on the Amalg around 1 million and I would bring it down to about 300k on my own.


We just have a few underperformers on the amalg. Amalg damage is irrelevant and it isn't. No, the fight is not won or lost there but having the amalgamation go down on time is important. We are getting the tendons in 2 goes at this point and I am pulling my weight on tendons.

H Spine is less about burst on the tendons now, with all the nerfs, than getting the amalgs down quickly and shortening the length overall encounter to make it easier on your healers and the tank who is kiting. If your raid still needs to focus on tendon burst reforging and respecing specifically to burst will do way more than the 2pc t12 bonus which is devalued anyways because it's a dot and you lose the last part of it when the plate collapses/flies off. If the tendons are blocking you at this point I think your other raiders need to be looking at their play and what they can also do to burst.


The tendons not blocking us but its kind of tight. The amalg was better last night.
better rogues than the ones on these forums, were showing higher damage with 2pc 391 than 4 pc 410.

also isnt 2pc t12 / 2pc t13, better than 4pc to start with for sub ?,Listen to the guide on MMO-champion, however i do go with 2/2 serated blades for amalg dps, and drop 2/2 initiative for cleaner rotations,
I've heard of using 2pc T12 for spellweaving procs from the dot it leaves on H Madness, but not on Spine. I guess it could be used, but isn't really necessary at this point I wouldn't think.
03/29/2012 02:42 PMPosted by Alyx
Pretty sure the 4 piece is higher damage as it allows more ambushes and 2 more secs or find weakness uptime
It doesn't. It allows, maybe, one more Ambush. But FW already lasts the entire tendon phase w/o glyph or w/o 4pc. So adding either can't give you more uptime..

better rogues than the ones on these forums, were showing higher damage with 2pc 391 than 4 pc 410.

also isnt 2pc t12 / 2pc t13, better than 4pc to start with for sub ?,Listen to the guide on MMO-champion, however i do go with 2/2 serated blades for amalg dps, and drop 2/2 initiative for cleaner rotations,
Yes, although serrated blades is mostly useless. You don't really need Rupture running on Amalgs full-time and you do not Rupture Tendons ever. However, Initiative helps with a much cleaner ShD. It guarantees every Ambush is 4CP (2 on Ambush, 1 on Initiative, 1 on HAT) so you can trade off Ambush/Evis for the full duration.
It doesn't. It allows, maybe, one more Ambush. But FW already lasts the entire tendon phase w/o glyph or w/o 4pc. So adding either can't give you more uptime..


So would you recommend i try the 2pc with 391 pants/378 gloves (over 410/397) next week or stick with the 4pc? Not really worried about keeping FW up as like you said, it's up anyways. I know the 2pc will generate more DPS is your typical situation but tendon burst is far from your typical situation.
I used 2pc-T12 gloves/shoulders. Substituting legs in place of shoulders alters the equation. If you're able I'd test both scenarios and see which maximizes damage. But you crit constantly on Tendon. Especially since you spend about half the phase using Ambush which is a guaranteed crit buffed by FW. So the 2pc packs a good punch. And it's more helpful on Amalg than the 4pc-T13 would be, as said above. So it's the more well-rounded bonus to go with.
It isn't quite an apples to apples comparison, take from it what you will. My first kill was with the stage two daggers and it was after the first nerf. I used 4pc t13 and the following spec:

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fchcZ0oZcGcfduoRho

Like Caera said, you want initiative maxed out if you are going strictly for burst and then spam 4 point eviscerates. It's just ambush->evisc->ambush->evisc over and over. I reforged out of expertise and to the spell hit cap. Debatable, but I also reforged out of haste and into mastery. That reforging cost me roughly 20 energy over the course of a tendon phase from passive energy regen. I did about 6.5 million tendon damage and about 9.5 million amalg damage.

Compare this to this week with me going straight sub, with legendary daggers, the stock spec and reforging, and t12 hands and shoulders. I dropped about 1M on the tendons (5.5M total on tendons with less health) and picked up 3.5M on the amalg (13M total). The T12 bonus accounted for 160k of my total tendon damage, less than IP, and 650k of my amalg damage.
03/30/2012 09:23 PMPosted by Orises
The T12 bonus accounted for 160k of my total tendon damage, less than IP, and 650k of my amalg damage.
Compare that 160k to 1 Ambush where you otherwise would have Backstabbed on the Tendon, and 650k to 0 Ambushes since you probably wouldn't Dance the Amalg to ensure it's available for the Tendon, 2pc-T12 is well ahead of 4pc-T13. As before, FW is null. Since it lasts the entire Tendon phase at it's base duration w/o any outside modifier(s). Which like Orises, I stick with my 2pc-T12 for Spine at the end of the day.
03/31/2012 12:58 PMPosted by Caera
Compare that 160k to 1 Ambush where you otherwise would have Backstabbed on the Tendon


That's 160k over 6 tendon pops or less than 27k per tendon. Half an ambush. The 4pc t14 bonus isn't the extra FW uptime, it's the agility from higher ilvl pieces and the free combo points (read: free energy) from the extra ambush + initative into another (ideally) 10 energy evisc. The differences we are talking about here are so small that they are marginalized by the quality of individual play of both the rogue and his fellow raiders. Kick your friends into gear, I'm sure you guys can squeeze out another 100k on a tendon.

03/31/2012 12:58 PMPosted by Caera
650k to 0 Ambushes since you probably wouldn't Dance the Amalg to ensure it's available for the Tendon, 2pc-T12 is well ahead of 4pc-T13. As before, FW is null. Since it lasts the entire Tendon phase at it's base duration w/o any outside modifier(s).


The 2pc t12 is clearly better for the amalg. What is really going to hurt your amalg dps, more so than this gearing question, is if you need to spec out of restless blades, reforge into spell hit, and reforge out of expertise. Either 4pc T13 or 2pc T12, this is going to be what kills your amalg dps. I submit, again, kick those other raiders into gear so you don't need to do this and you should still be top damage on both tendons and the amalg.

03/31/2012 12:58 PMPosted by Caera
Which like Orises, I stick with my 2pc-T12 for Spine at the end of the day.


Indeed. Just some more analysis and opinion for you guys still considering this gear question

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