Theory on Garrosh and the Siege of Orgrimmar

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We all know by now that the final act of MoP will be the Siege of Orgrimmar where both the Alliance and Horde lay siege to the city of Orgrimmar for the explicit purpose of deposing Garrosh from his position as Warchief, if not also his position as being alive.

Now I tend to feel that Garrosh's corruption should be internal rather then external. We've had plenty of characters corrupted by the Old Gods/Legion, so I think it's time for a villain who is truly acting as he believes is right of his own free will.

Taking this as true, we then have to fix another problem. If all it is in the Siege of Orgrimmar is Garrosh and his hardcore loyalists, then the war will basically be won before we even set foot inside whatever room Garrosh happens to be in, if not before we break down the gates of Orgrimmar. This is unacceptable, the final boss encounter needs to have some urgency attached to it for it to be interesting enough, otherwise we are just violently carrying out a death sentence.

So how will this urgency be created without Garrosh sighning up with the Old Gods/Legion? Simple, the Mogu. The Mogu value strength, something the Horde, especially under Garrosh, can understand. The Mogu will be largely defeated in the initial launch of MoP, but there's no reason to assume they'll be extinct.

What if a remnent of the Mogu sign on with the Horde. Combining the Horde's resources with Mogu flesh-shaping magic, they create an army of super-soldiers, perhaps something like a Saurok 2.0, which Garrosh is preparing to unleash upon the world.

This also resolves several other questions. For example it explains why the Horde turns against Garrosh, especially if he offered the Mogu rulership of Pandaria (it's unlikely they would work for the Horde for anything less), the other members of the Horde would see this action as highly dishonorable because of the amicable relationships with the Pandaria Pandaren.

Likewise it also gives the Siege of Orgrimmar more diverse visuals. While the main batch of super-soldiers obviously isn't ready yet, the "test batches" could be ready and augment Garrosh's loyalists in addition to the Mogu themselves. The last thing we need is for every single boss be an Orc (with one or two of other Horde races) because that's what the overwhelming majority of his loyalists will probably be.

Finally it helps tie the Siege of Orgrimmar directly to the events of Pandaria. Making it similar in a sense to the Sunwell, which despite not taking place in Outland was still inseparably part of the Outland storyline.

TLDR

1. Garrosh is driven by his own lust for conquest rather then an external influence.
2. Allies with the remnants of the Mogu. He offers them rulership of Pandaria in exchange for using their flesh-shaping magic, combined with the Horde's vast resources, to create an army of super-soldiers.
3. This action is the final straw that triggers the Horde's uprising against Garrosh.
4. The Siege of Orgrimmar raid will be launched with the explicit goal of not only deposing Garrosh, but also stopping the super-soldiers from being unleashed on Azeroth.
5. While the bulk of the super-soldiers are still being created, the ones that are finished augment the defenses of Orgrimmar, making the raid more varied visually (let's just say I'd rather avoid a situation where we have a 10 boss raid where 8 of the bosses are Orcs).
I think your theory could possibly work.
Well since we only have the begining and the end of what happens in MoP, it's hard to speculate the story since we're missing the middle. Personally, the fact that both the Horde and Alliance attack Orgrimmar to take down Garrosh makes it an Alliance victory to me. But, it is also a Horde victory to the fact that they will be revolting agains't a tyrant.

I'm hoping the Seige of Orgrimmar will consist of both Horde and Alliance npcs. Both version will have some faction leaders in it to aid them in the fight agains't the bosses, maybe one faction leader per boss, and them all at the fight with Garrosh. I think we'll be seeing Varian, Jaina, Thrall, Vol'jin, Sylvanas, Baine and possibly Tyrande. I think though one leader will die in the raid other then Garrosh, and my guess is it will be either Jaina or Sylvanas. Having it go smoothly with every leader emerging alive would be boring, while having one who people love die would make the story more emotional.

This raid has a lot to live up to, we're actually going to be attacking a city, and hopefulyl before the patch is it, construction of Orgrimmar will be completed. I think we'll be entering the city via the Valley of Honor, kill a boss there, move into the Drag kill a boss there, then into the Valley of Wisdom, kill off some Tauren boss, head on over to the Valley of spirits that will have a fight with a Troll and Goblin duo, then attack the zeplin tower, bring in a zeplin of reinforcements to secure the rest of the city and move into the Valley of Strength. In the Valley of Strength we'll attack a boss just outside Grommash Hold, move inside have some speech between the Leaders and Garrosh, kill Garrosh, collect our shiney loot then listen to another speech and have a NEW WARCHIEF (Not Go'el, we don't like him.)
Well since we only have the begining and the end of what happens in MoP, it's hard to speculate the story since we're missing the middle. Personally, the fact that both the Horde and Alliance attack Orgrimmar to take down Garrosh makes it an Alliance victory to me. But, it is also a Horde victory to the fact that they will be revolting agains't a tyrant.

I'm hoping the Seige of Orgrimmar will consist of both Horde and Alliance npcs. Both version will have some faction leaders in it to aid them in the fight agains't the bosses, maybe one faction leader per boss, and them all at the fight with Garrosh. I think we'll be seeing Varian, Jaina, Thrall, Vol'jin, Sylvanas, Baine and possibly Tyrande. I think though one leader will die in the raid other then Garrosh, and my guess is it will be either Jaina or Sylvanas. Having it go smoothly with every leader emerging alive would be boring, while having one who people love die would make the story more emotional.

This raid has a lot to live up to, we're actually going to be attacking a city, and hopefulyl before the patch is it, construction of Orgrimmar will be completed. I think we'll be entering the city via the Valley of Honor, kill a boss there, move into the Drag kill a boss there, then into the Valley of Wisdom, kill off some Tauren boss, head on over to the Valley of spirits that will have a fight with a Troll and Goblin duo, then attack the zeplin tower, bring in a zeplin of reinforcements to secure the rest of the city and move into the Valley of Strength. In the Valley of Strength we'll attack a boss just outside Grommash Hold, move inside have some speech between the Leaders and Garrosh, kill Garrosh, collect our shiney loot then listen to another speech and have a NEW WARCHIEF (Not Go'el, we don't like him.)


I would actually be very surprised if there were more then 4 heroes present in the Garrosh encounter. Too many heroes (such as every single racial leader) would actually end up outnumbering the raiders, at least in 10-man, making the player's contribution a lot less meaningful.

Just because a character has a bone to pick with Garrosh doesn't mean they actually have to take part in the actual Garrosh encounter. There will be plenty of time in the lead-up to the encounter for plenty of characters to get face time.
Still doesn't change the 'Why doesn't the Alliance let them wipe themselves out' plothole.

Which happens to pretty huge.
Still doesn't change the 'Why doesn't the Alliance let them wipe themselves out' plothole.

Which happens to pretty huge.


Not really.

In my theory the Alliance would want to take down Garrosh because if he can build a large enough force of super-soldiers, he'll basically win the war before the offensive even begins. For every army the Alliance managed to defeat, Garrosh would flesh-shape two more and would take Azeroth inch by inch with the sheer weight of numbers. It simply isn't worth the gamble that the Horde rebels will come out on top in the time they have.

In addition, neither Varian nor the Alliance is about genocide. Peace is preferable to conflict, and if the Alliance can find a way to end the war without any real concessions on their part (and no, walking out of Orgrimmar, a city the Alliance has never held, isn't a real concession), they'll jump at it in an instant. Aiding an ultimately successful Horde uprising against Garrosh would be a major step towards real peace.
Looking over some of the Beta threads on MMO Champ I saw one that says apparently Garrosh is visited by the spirits of past Chieftains like Kargath Bladefist who tells him to man up and just wipe out the humans.

If it's true, then that would foreshadow Garrosh's fall coming from his own shortcomings, unless of course the spirits are just "hurf durf demons pretending" AGAIN.
In addition, neither Varian nor the Alliance is about genocide. Peace is preferable to conflict, and if the Alliance can find a way to end the war without any real concessions on their part (and no, walking out of Orgrimmar, a city the Alliance has never held, isn't a real concession), they'll jump at it in an instant. Aiding an ultimately successful Horde uprising against Garrosh would be a major step towards real peace.


The problem is, even if they DO help, what do they gain?

I doubt Sylvanas will hand Gilneas back over, and not even Thrall would deny the good for the Horde that's come from the Warsong in Ashenvale. After all the death that's guaranteed on MoP, just pushing Garrosh off the throne wouldn't nearly be enough to make up for everything that's happened, both there and in Cataclysm.

If they just brush it off as 'petty conflict' then its the end of the Alliance of an interesting faction.
Looking over some of the Beta threads on MMO Champ I saw one that says apparently Garrosh is visited by the spirits of past Chieftains like Kargath Bladefist who tells him to man up and just wipe out the humans.

If it's true, then that would foreshadow Garrosh's fall coming from his own shortcomings, unless of course the spirits are just "hurf durf demons pretending" AGAIN.


Well it is Kargath Bladefist. That guy is not exactly sunshine and rainbows to begin with...

Garrosh has developed a bit of a blind spot when it comes to the pre-WC3 Horde. It's not unreasonable that this blind spot is what ultimately destroys him.

The problem is, even if they DO help, what do they gain?

I doubt Sylvanas will hand Gilneas back over, and not even Thrall would deny the good for the Horde that's come from the Warsong in Ashenvale. After all the death that's guaranteed on MoP, just pushing Garrosh off the throne wouldn't nearly be enough to make up for everything that's happened, both there and in Cataclysm.

If they just brush it off as 'petty conflict' then its the end of the Alliance of an interesting faction.


And if they don't help (according to my theory) Garrosh might build up enough momentum to conquer the entire world. It's about fighting a battle the only time you know you can actually win.

At any rate, if there is any formal peace between the Alliance and Horde there will be some disputed territory that has to be dealt with. However in all likelihood it'll be a shaky ceasefire that simply leaves the battle lines where they lie for the foreseeable future. The point is the Alliance knows that not sitting on the sidelines (and not attempting to conquer Orgrimmar after or during the battle) will give them the undeniable moral high ground, which will aide greatly in any potential peace negotiations.
I like the general idea of it. I'd explain why, but you're pretty much already offered the explanations I would give.

The Mogu thing can be replaced with various other sorts of external influences. As long as it's eeeeeevil enough to turn the Horde against them.

As far as Alliance goes. Well... it doesn't really give them an explicit reason to go in and fight them, but I'll go ahead and assume that they do something especially bad to the Alliance to prompt them to quick action. Alliance infiltrates the city one way, Horde infiltrates the city another way. Both groups act seperately and do not ally with eachother. They probably don't even know the other group is even there. So you don't need some sort of reason for them to "work together" because that's just coincidentally how it works out, much like the retaking of the Undercity.

Still begs the question of why the Alliance would just randomly decide to up and leave afterwards, though, but this is my vision of how such a thing could go down without being TOO rage-inducing to Alliance.

1. During the raid, Horde and Alliance forces witness the others also fighting against the EVIL HORDE, Thrall sees Varian/Jainia, Varian/Jaina see Thrall, but the two groups are too seperated and never come together.

2. Varian/Jaina and 10-25 heroic adventurers take down Garrosh. (Has to be Alliance for this thing to work properly. I'm not sure how you'd handle this with Horde being the ones to kill Garrosh)

3. Varian looks at Thrall. Says something along the lines of "HAY GURL! You're too late, Thrall. Against my better judgement, I'll leave you alive to clean up this mess. Keep your people in line or I will be back to reunite you with your friend here."

Then they leave. Maybe Jaina puts up a fuss and they get in an argument. I dunno. Not really important.

is it satisfying? Not really. Unfortunately, though, I just don't see Alliance satisfaction being possible here. But at least it shows that there is still some resentment in there.
So, basically, it all boils down to the fact that - yet again - we get another Horde dominated expansion where we're led by Thrall to do all his bidding. :|
04/16/2012 05:27 AMPosted by Shaelynn
So, basically, it all boils down to the fact that - yet again - we get another Horde dominated expansion where we're led by Thrall to do all his bidding. :|


I never said the Alliance would be following Thrall, even implicitly.

There's a couple different ways this could work, but it boils down to the Alliance's desire to defeat Garrosh trumps anything else. As Snowzy suggested, one viable solution is to have the Alliance and Horde assault Orgrimmar independently of each other (completely without the other's knowledge might be a bit of a stretch, but the general idea is sound), and then simply deciding there is no sense in fighting each other when Garrosh is a serious threat to both of them.

Then have the Alliance leave the city with the warning that if the new leaders of the Horde cannot control their people, the Alliance will return.
@Snowzy, I like your idea and I can even add how Varian could let Thrall live and not have the Alliance riot.

It boils down to who would lead the Horde after both Thrall and Garrosh are dead. Baine is too young, Theron doesn't want the job and isn't well-known enough by the player base and Gallywix is so untrustworthy its laughable.

That leaves Sylvanas and Vol'Jin. You can imagine how the risk of Sylvanas, with her abdject hatred of all humanity (not to mention the ability to provide blanket authorization for Blight use), being Warchief would be something the Alliance would want to avoid. While another Horde civil war would certainly errupt as the Sylvanas and Vol'Jin factions tried to install their leader as Warchief, Varian just wouldn't risk Sylvanas winning and Blighting everything south of Hillsbrad.

Leaving Thrall alive would be a case of better the devil you know.
well seeing how at the end of Deathwings death in the video u all know Thrall Knocked up that other shaman Chick so seeing mop is sopost to be Years lata my guess is Thralls son or daughter is goin to play some roll so mabe thats somthing to think about just like how the allience had king Varian son take his place and Vol'jin who was thralls basic right hand man could be the mentor to lead the horde in the right path
I think this is a great idea. I can even see the reasons the faction leaders split.
Vol'jin, knowing the Mogu are allied with the Zandalari, would probably be furious, seeing how anti Zandalar hes been so far.
Sylvanas (and possibly Vol'jin) would feel threatened, as now that Garrosh has these super soldiers, he could figure the Forsaken are no longer necessary. Sylvanas blackmails Lor'themar into siding ith her, and they join the Troll's resistance.
Baine could see this as a chance to avenge his father, and I'd assume Tauren's love of nature probably wouldn't agree with the Mogu's flesh-shaping, and the Tauren and Orcs would be the likely candidates to be transformed, so most would defect to the resistance to avoid it.

And for the Alliance, whatever you think, this is a tremendous victory for you. Garrosh's war mongering and tendency to send wave after wave of soldiers at something he wants is why they are losing in places like Ashenvale. You take him down, the Horde may be weakened.
Hell, if the Alliance wants to keep its honorable high ground, it could be an attempt at a rescue mission for a time. Alliance forces attack Durotar and Orgrimmar, not to crush the Horde, but to liberate captured civilians from Garrosh, then possibly encounter the resistance along the way and form a temporary alliance to take down Garrosh.

1. Garrosh is driven by his own lust for conquest rather then an external influence.


This doesn't happen in Azeroth. It's always space-demons, or eldrich horror-gods, or some elemental-spiritual hullabaloo. There's no room for good old fashioned megalomania in The World of Warcraft.

Garrosh, it will surely be revealed, purchased a cursed monkey paw in the Ogrimmar markets one day during Wrath of the Lich King. On it he wished; "Lok'tar, I wish to be Warchief!". And so it was. Through inexplicable and magical means, Garrosh rose through the ranks of The Horde and became Warchief.

However, the monkey's paw demands a terrible price...
I think this is a great idea. I can even see the reasons the faction leaders split.
Vol'jin, knowing the Mogu are allied with the Zandalari, would probably be furious, seeing how anti Zandalar hes been so far.
Sylvanas (and possibly Vol'jin) would feel threatened, as now that Garrosh has these super soldiers, he could figure the Forsaken are no longer necessary. Sylvanas blackmails Lor'themar into siding ith her, and they join the Troll's resistance.
Baine could see this as a chance to avenge his father, and I'd assume Tauren's love of nature probably wouldn't agree with the Mogu's flesh-shaping, and the Tauren and Orcs would be the likely candidates to be transformed, so most would defect to the resistance to avoid it.

And for the Alliance, whatever you think, this is a tremendous victory for you. Garrosh's war mongering and tendency to send wave after wave of soldiers at something he wants is why they are losing in places like Ashenvale. You take him down, the Horde may be weakened.
Hell, if the Alliance wants to keep its honorable high ground, it could be an attempt at a rescue mission for a time. Alliance forces attack Durotar and Orgrimmar, not to crush the Horde, but to liberate captured civilians from Garrosh, then possibly encounter the resistance along the way and form a temporary alliance to take down Garrosh.


Personally I want Lor'themar to back the uprising of his own free will as the Blood Elves need to do something awesome. Logically he'd side with whoever will give Quel'thalas the greatest autonomy, and Garrosh is not that person.

I'd love it if Vol'jin (who will likely be at the center of the uprising regardless of who ends up as Warchief) marches straight into Sunfury Spire and asks for Lor'themar to join the uprising. Lor'themar dances around the issue for a few lines, to which Vol'jin makes several arguments appealing to both the pride of the Blood Elves and his own personal convictions on the subject. Lor'themar then reveals that he had in fact sent out the orders to turn on Garrosh and join the uprising before Vol'jin even arrived in Silvermoon.
04/16/2012 08:22 AMPosted by Kynrind
Yay. We took for big evil Garrosh, now what about the rest of the Horde? Why shouldn't we take out as much of the leadership as possible? It's very unlikely Sylvanas would be able to take the leadership of the Horde. Remember that the people of the Horde have to accept it. She can't just march in and take it. If a good portion of the leadership of the Horde is killed, that removes a lot of their ability to coordinate. It muddles up the command structure since no one knows who is in charge.


Nothing unites a divided people as well or as quickly as an external attack. There are multiple examples throughout history. Also, people who feel threatened are more likely to follow an extreme leader as opposed to a moderate one. Again, many dictators have in the past used this to grab and keep power. By attacking the Horde instead of leaving the Alliance will virtually hand the mantle of Warchief to Sylvanas and she will start Blighting anything that moves.
Actually I kinda feel this would be a great time to bring back Saurfang I mean he did promise to kill Garrosh himself if he ever brought the horde back towards the pre WC3 darkness.

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