Arena gear should be instantly obtainable.

Arenas
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There no point not to give ability to obtain full cata gear for fresh 85. I leveled alt and he is in full ruth and i find frustrating that the only way i am going to get full cata if i only do arena going to be by the end of the season. Now in full ruthless i am not really competitive and won't break above 2k.

And no i cannot do RBGS since i rolled ENH shaman and won't be resto or ele.

And whats with all this "people shouldn't get free gear, they have to work for months to get it" stuff. This elitist mentality is ridiculous! Last I checked WoW is a GAME


It's a game based around carrot on a stick with gears and achievments. Gear can't be free. Stop with this whole "it's a game" argument - it does not fit MMOs, games that are made to be time sinks.

People have pointed out many valid ways to make the full Cata -> Full Ruthless difference less significant, and those are valid points.

Just stop.

And whats with all this "people shouldn't get free gear, they have to work for months to get it" stuff. This elitist mentality is ridiculous! Last I checked WoW is a GAME


It's a game based around carrot on a stick with gears and achievments. Gear can't be free. Stop with this whole "it's a game" argument - it does not fit MMOs, games that are made to be time sinks.

People have pointed out many valid ways to make the full Cata -> Full Ruthless difference less significant, and those are valid points.

Just stop.


What a crazy ridiculous statement. Not even going to bother with such a troll comment.
WOW is perfect the way it is. 1) rewards noobs/bad players for sticking to it and progressing they get full cata may reach 1600s because they vs some undergeared teams imo thats fine they have worked for it. 2) these guys even fully geared would not get further than 1600s because at that point everyone is geared enough or skilled enough to beat them. 3) if everyone had the same gear there would be some people or teams that lose very game and have no real hope of getting better through gear.

Not a smart idea to offer something that gives hope to some and this will just make the QQ on PVE items even worse.


It's a game based around carrot on a stick with gears and achievments. Gear can't be free. Stop with this whole "it's a game" argument - it does not fit MMOs, games that are made to be time sinks.

People have pointed out many valid ways to make the full Cata -> Full Ruthless difference less significant, and those are valid points.

Just stop.


What a crazy ridiculous statement. Not even going to bother with such a troll comment.


How so? I'd like you to clarify how that is a troll statement.

You do realize that MMOs are indeed gigantic time sinks, right? And that they need major objectives for you to keep your subscription active.
04/22/2012 05:28 PMPosted by Koutetsu
You do realize that MMOs are indeed gigantic time sinks, right? And that they need major objectives for you to keep your subscription active.


The point is that if the major objectives are off-putting to the player base, they should probably be looked at.

Being a fresh 85 and getting farmed by people that have cataclysmic gear is certainly off-putting, and prevents regular PvPers from wanting to gear alts.

The problem is that Blizz is operating under the assumption that they need a time sink to get people to PvP. The reality is that many people don't PvP because of the amount of time you have to spend getting slaughtered in order to even have a chance to become competitive.

People that like PvP are going to PvP, regardless of the fact they could have a starting set of gear available to them that would allow them to be competitive from the start. In fact, I think more people would PvP if they had that, because I think a lot of people quit after getting slaughtered a couple times.
I actually do like this to an extent...

Getting a piece of gear per bracket of rating would be neat.

And, in that case, people who are not as good as you would not have the same level gear.
I don't think arena gear should be instantly obtainable as soon as you reach end game, there has to be something to work for, but I do think after a certain time frame the cap on weekly CP should be removed or at the very least increased.
04/22/2012 05:33 PMPosted by Sheevah
You do realize that MMOs are indeed gigantic time sinks, right? And that they need major objectives for you to keep your subscription active.


The point is that if the major objectives are off-putting to the player base, they should probably be looked at.

Being a fresh 85 and getting farmed by people that have cataclysmic gear is certainly off-putting, and prevents regular PvPers from wanting to gear alts.

The problem is that Blizz is operating under the assumption that they need a time sink to get people to PvP. The reality is that many people don't PvP because of the amount of time you have to spend getting slaughtered in order to even have a chance to become competitive.

People that like PvP are going to PvP, regardless of the fact they could have a starting set of gear available to them that would allow them to be competitive from the start. In fact, I think more people would PvP if they had that, because I think a lot of people quit after getting slaughtered a couple times.


I do not understand why you answer me as if I didn't know that.

This rogue is a fresh leveled alt going through the painful honor grind with absolutly no gear vs people in full Cataclysm merely because of how long the season has been going for.

In fact, I was one of the people saying dedicated PvPers that even acchieve minor ratings should be able to instantly get most of their pieces of gear in order to catch up, just like it was in Wrath.

The current model is not only a time-sink (that has to exist in mmos), but it's a graduated time sink that holds you on a tight leash week after week. It's a terrible model, because it assures everyone will get the gear eventually, instead of forcing them to try a bit harder for that piece they're missing.

For instance, I had a priest friend back during Wrath that only decided to try and get more rating because he couldn't buy his PvP cloak (which was what, 1650 rating?). Ends up he got to enjoy arena when he started to try really hard and improved significantly.

My point, however, is that making everything free the instant you get 85 is not a valid decision as far as a MMO is concerned.

If anything, I would be biased to say I want Cata to compete on this fresh 85 rogue...

But I understand that is not possible. It has nothing to do with "hard work" or any bull!@#$ (I'm pretty sure I'm doing a lot more work farming honor like a mad man only to be behind people who did some arenas at 1000 MMR for 4 months), but about the game model and how it absolutly needs to keep people pursuing an objective - and since there's no more rating req for pieces except for t2, it HAS to be the gear it provides.
You have got to be kidding me... pve can gear up all they want but for pvpers its completely ridiculous. At the very least make the honor gear the best. It's stupid how my friend who renewed his rsham mid season is going to be behind. Right now, being behind even just a little is a lot.
MAN people are dam lazy these days. The hole season everyone if on the same playing field if you did what it takes to get the gear as fast as you can. Get as much cp during off season, get capped EVERY week and do a BH run EVERY week. At no point in the season are people not on a level playing field given the fact if ya wanted to be on the level playing field ya would have done the simple and easy stuff to get to full cata like most people did.

I wish they would make it harder to get pvp gear because in my opinion i think its easy as hell to get pvp gear. I went from full crap holy pve gear to full ret pvp gear ( mostly ruthless) in about 2 weeks.

Make its so your takes like 7-8 months to get full pvp gear and when the next season comes out you up grade them. And for the peopel who get 2200, they should get a huge increase to the cp per week. And also please loose the raids like BH it ruins it in my opinion.
04/22/2012 09:34 PMPosted by Konsigliere
You have got to be kidding me... pve can gear up all they want but for pvpers its completely ridiculous. At the very least make the honor gear the best. It's stupid how my friend who renewed his rsham mid season is going to be behind. Right now, being behind even just a little is a lot.


But that's basically what I said.


I wish they would make it harder to get pvp gear because in my opinion i think its easy as hell to get pvp gear. I went from full crap holy pve gear to full ret pvp gear ( mostly ruthless) in about 2 weeks.


Ruthless isn't competitive gear. It's !@#$ gear.

Somthing of an intresting idea.. Perhapse you could have an "arena loadout" basicly a premade set of items of your own choice from a menue based on your spec.

Also you could have a list of item enchantments & Gems to pick from.

Heck you could use this same system for BG's as well......... How cool would that be?Cezar


The problem is that we aren't playing an Arena stand alone game, we are playing an MMO. Part of what it means to be a game in that genre is to have to acquire gear over an extended period of time. This isn't Halo (although iirc a lot of those fps games are moving towards system where you do gain new access to weapons according to your success in the game).

However, I do think it would be beneficial to add gear that is easily obtainable right at level cap. The bull!@#$ this toon is wearing is the crafted blues from blacksmithing, because it took 10 minutes to buy and craft the gear from the AH. However, it isn't even close to having season 10 honor gear.

I think it would be a good idea to give players who chose to do arena at lvl 85 access to some make up you are talking about, simply because it takes a long time to be able to compete. I don't think the gear should be usable outside arena, because like I said, that would take the game further outside the genre than it has already gone. It is great fun to see your character get stronger and finally be able to participate in RBGs, but there should be a way to allow new 85s to not be fly swatted away to someone in season 11. I think the people who have season 11 should beat me, but its no fun on either side when one person 3 hits the other.
My point, however, is that making everything free the instant you get 85 is not a valid decision as far as a MMO is concerned.

If anything, I would be biased to say I want Cata to compete on this fresh 85 rogue...

But I understand that is not possible. It has nothing to do with "hard work" or any bull!@#$ (I'm pretty sure I'm doing a lot more work farming honor like a mad man only to be behind people who did some arenas at 1000 MMR for 4 months), but about the game model and how it absolutly needs to keep people pursuing an objective - and since there's no more rating req for pieces except for t2, it HAS to be the gear it provides.


Your point revolves around supporting a terrible model.

MMO's do not have to be grindy in the areas of competitive play. You have to grind up levels, you have to grind through being terrible to learn the ropes, if you PvE, you have to grind, etc.

The whole point of being "grindy" in MMO's is to make people spend time on the content related to things they want to do and to make them spend more time there. It makes perfect sense for PvErs to have to grind up gear in different instances and encounters in order to hit the current content, but there is no reason an 85 should be forced to grind out honor in the same exact battlegrounds they'll be running after they're geared. PvE playesr grind gear in heroics so they can raid, while PvPers grind out gear so they can run the same exact encounters they're already running. It's an awful model.

What I would propose is something along the lines of the following:

1) Wearing PvP Gear flags you for PvP.

2) You cannot enter any PvE instances while flagged for PvP. (A small workaround for PvP servers could be added to ensure you aren't just in the wrong zone when queueing)

3) Upon reaching 85, you are given the current season's honor gear.

4) Conquest grind is shortened a bit.

5) Cosmetic upgrades/possible small stat upgrades given back to achieving certain ratings.

6) Upon reaching that rating, you can purchase the gear, you don't have to sit on a team for weeks waiting for more conquest to come in so you can purchase the upgraded versions.

This levels the playing field for PvPers, gives PvPers a reason to keep queueing, and keeps the upgraded PvP gear from being used to boost ilevels for PvErs.

In the end of it all, they really just need to separate PvP and PvE, because it's obvious they can't balance both of them simultaneously. Now, we all know they won't do that, but I can dream.
I fully support this idea. Level the playing field in pvp. Those opposed are the same people that love stomping undergeared people into the ground.
My point, however, is that making everything free the instant you get 85 is not a valid decision as far as a MMO is concerned.

If anything, I would be biased to say I want Cata to compete on this fresh 85 rogue...

But I understand that is not possible. It has nothing to do with "hard work" or any bull!@#$ (I'm pretty sure I'm doing a lot more work farming honor like a mad man only to be behind people who did some arenas at 1000 MMR for 4 months), but about the game model and how it absolutly needs to keep people pursuing an objective - and since there's no more rating req for pieces except for t2, it HAS to be the gear it provides.


Your point revolves around supporting a terrible model.

MMO's do not have to be grindy in the areas of competitive play. You have to grind up levels, you have to grind through being terrible to learn the ropes, if you PvE, you have to grind, etc.

The whole point of being "grindy" in MMO's is to make people spend time on the content related to things they want to do and to make them spend more time there. It makes perfect sense for PvErs to have to grind up gear in different instances and encounters in order to hit the current content, but there is no reason an 85 should be forced to grind out honor in the same exact battlegrounds they'll be running after they're geared. PvE playesr grind gear in heroics so they can raid, while PvPers grind out gear so they can run the same exact encounters they're already running. It's an awful model.

What I would propose is something along the lines of the following:

1) Wearing PvP Gear flags you for PvP.

2) You cannot enter any PvE instances while flagged for PvP. (A small workaround for PvP servers could be added to ensure you aren't just in the wrong zone when queueing)

3) Upon reaching 85, you are given the current season's honor gear.

4) Conquest grind is shortened a bit.

5) Cosmetic upgrades/possible small stat upgrades given back to achieving certain ratings.

6) Upon reaching that rating, you can purchase the gear, you don't have to sit on a team for weeks waiting for more conquest to come in so you can purchase the upgraded versions.

This levels the playing field for PvPers, gives PvPers a reason to keep queueing, and keeps the upgraded PvP gear from being used to boost ilevels for PvErs.

In the end of it all, they really just need to separate PvP and PvE, because it's obvious they can't balance both of them simultaneously. Now, we all know they won't do that, but I can dream.


I agree with many of your points, but that's not what really matters. It's that they will not do it, sadly.

In fact, if you look carefully, naming it a "terrible model" is one of the things I've done in my post.
04/23/2012 05:40 AMPosted by Koutetsu
In fact, if you look carefully, naming it a "terrible model" is one of the things I've done in my post


You called it a terrible model, but then proceeded to argue that's "just part of being an MMO", which simply isn't true.

What you do have right, is that MMO's need goals for people to chase. The part that isn't true is that being forced to grind subpar gear to even have a chance at being competitive is a goal that has to be required.

I'm nitpicking, I know, but I think it's worth clarification.


It's that they will not do it, sadly.


Unfortunately, I concur. :(
wow is a grind, MMO's are a grind. go play a RTS or FPS if you want everyone to start off with equal and only advance with skill.
In fact, if you look carefully, naming it a "terrible model" is one of the things I've done in my post


You called it a terrible model, but then proceeded to argue that's "just part of being an MMO", which simply isn't true.

What you do have right, is that MMO's need goals for people to chase. The part that isn't true is that being forced to grind subpar gear to even have a chance at being competitive is a goal that has to be required.

I'm nitpicking, I know, but I think it's worth clarification.



But I didn't argue people should grind for subpar gear.

I actually pointed out how I think the Wrath model, where Arena Point /Conquest point gear is a minority of your gear, and Honor gear is the majority of your gear, even your GOOD gear, so if you arrive late, you are only 5 pieces + Weapons behind instead of behind in ilvl in EVERY SINGLE SLOT, is a far better PvP model.

It also kept itself "exclusive" from PvErs (apparently PvErs using high ilvl PvP gear in PvE is a concern to Blizzard, which baffles me, but that's besides the point) because it required rating, no matter how little it did. I think highest piece of the honor pieces was 1650 or 1700, but my memory fails me.

So to sum it up I think people should grind for optimal gear and just be behind a couple pieces, not an entire set. Cataclysm sucks.

My opinion in a nutshell.
04/23/2012 05:25 AMPosted by Tonkatoy
I fully support this idea. Level the playing field in pvp. Those opposed are the same people that love stomping undergeared people into the ground.


That's why they removed the rating requirements from the gear. And bad players will still lose even though they blame gear.

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