Gemming in wow is boring

Professions
I checked the front 2 pages and didnt see anything on this.

I find socket bonuses in this game to be pitiful, and gems that are not red/red hybrids are worthless for everyone save tanks. At BEST a dps/healer will only use 3 of the 6 different types of gems, and even then they only use purple/orange gems begrudingly. I dont think this is a very good design. All gems should have some value for all roles not just tanks.

Lets start by looking at socket bonuses. For almost all dps/healers socket bonuses are almost never worth it. Back in wrath we had meta bonuses that encouraged (FORCED) everyone to match at least one socket. Now dps/healers ignore most bonuses. The only ones that are usually worth getting HAVE to be your primary stat and usually need to be from what i call accidentally decent bonuses.

By "accidentally decent bonuses" i mean gear like chests with 3 sockets. The chest has a +10 socket bonus per socket so you end up with a +30 socket bonus. If the chest has 2 red sockets then you get lets say +30intellect making it worth getting, but anything else and it becomes lets ignore the socket and put 3 reds in there. If its yellow, yellow, blue you dont even have to think about it half the time. 3 reds.

If you were to get something with only one socket then you can all but ignore the bonus.

The lack of decent socket bonuses causes another issue: Non red gems suck. Red stats are the bread and butter of both healers and dps. It takes decent socket bonuses to make non-red gems worth getting now that meta gems are "Requires 3 red gems" there is almost no incentive to use anything other than a red. Pure blue and yellow gems are nearly worthless. At least at one time dps wanted red, healers yellow, and tanks blue. Now all healers/dps/bears want nothing but red gems and dks want yellow and shield tanks want yellow till they cap block then just blue.

I dont think this is a good design. But why should you care? Because its my belief that this is the reason that red gems are as overpriced as they are. When there is no interest in other gems their prices sink and reds skyrocket. The only people who really profit from this are JCs like me.

I think the best solution to this is to make other gems valuable. But how do you do this without making socket bonus irrelevant?

I think the solution here is simple. Make matching sockets mandatory. If its a blue socket you have to put in a blue or blue hybrid gem. But wait, doesnt this make socket bonuses worthless? Not if the bonus is only activated thru PURE gems. If you want a socket bonus you have to use RED gems in RED sockets (not purple/orange), BLUE gems in blue sockets and so on.

With this done that red/blue/yellow socket gets matched with a red/purple/orange gems rather than red/red/red. Furthermore those red, red, blue sockets with 30intellect become worth it to gem 2 brilliants and a rigid. Thats right a pure blue gem for a dps.

Add this in with meta gems that require something like a green gem or two and now almost all gems are valuable to a small degree. Im not calling for going back to the "more blues than reds" requirement, but rather something like requires 2 green gems.

This solution would greatly increase the use of gems OTHER than inferno rubies, and might even on rare occasion cause dps/healers to gem PURE blue and Yellow gems if the bonus is worth it. Similarly tanks would have a use for red gems. More interest in other gems is increased, prices go down and gemming becomes more interesting. Rather than only 3 types of gems you now might see dps (who ARENT doing it wrong) using reds, blues, yellows, purples, oranges, greens and so on.

This would make gemming far more interesting and reduce prices SLIGHTLY.

Thank you for your time.
O_O
Theres been plenty of posts on this issue, although I think yours is original. But unfortunately it looks like Blizzard is carrying the current scheme into MoP. But its not so bad when you realize you don't have to use always use red gems, even in red sockets. I now treat Rare red gems like epic gems - I only use them if I feel the gear really justifies them, and if I can afford them.
I agree that there's been too much emphasis on red gems. This is particularly true for the tier pieces where most have a red socket or two. It would be nice if this were de-emphasized a bit more.
I think it would be nice if using the right color in the socket did something else but +10 whatever stat. Say reduce a CD by 1 sec or something. Let's assume no "squish" for MoP puts your primary stat at around 10,000 at 90. The +10 socket bonus will be even less attractive then than it is now unless some new nuance is introduced.
Honestly, the best solution that I can see for solving the issue of boring gemming is to remove primary stats from the gems. Blizzard is taking the, "choice is meaningful" approach to talents to the extreme so I don't see why they shoud not apply that to gear choices as well.

Without Intellect, Strength and Agility on gear, socket bonuses and gems themselves actually become meaningful decisions again instead of maxing your primary stat and ignoring every other gem. The only exception to the removal of primary stats from gems would have to be the Jewelcrafter gems, obviously. To prevent the loss of stats from other gems, the jewelcrafter gems could be something like any pure gem plus 80 (or whatever the MoP number is) of your primary stat, fitting into any socket color, limit one gem.

I realize this would require a bit of work on the part of the developers but if it is going to get done, it would have to be during the beta of a new expansion.
i just dont feel like gemming can be interesting. Its math, there is a best way, and a bunch of wrong ways. The current setup makes the choice obvious leaving less people unknowingly gemming wrong.

I dont see how removing primary stats makes it more interesting. The gems are already worth very little in the grand scheme of things, if they were only secondary then they would be worth even less. That would also create the issue, particularly with pure dps classes, where if a destro lock wanted to switch to demo, on top of needing to reforge(which is already bad enough) they would also need to regem all their gear.

The core of the problem of "gems not being interesting" is that their function is not interesting. +20 stats isn't interesting no matter what stat it is. And their function was also basically replaced by reforging.

I wish they could just be removed but thats never gonna happen.
I don't see how enforcing socket colors will make gemming more interesting. If our only choice for a blue socket is a pure or hybrid blue gem, there's not much to think about there. Having to figure out whether a pure red gem will give more of our primary stat than we'd get with the socket bonus will at least make us do a little math. Gemming to maximize our primary stat isn't interesting, but neither is gemming to match socket colors.
04/22/2012 01:01 PMPosted by Witteafval
I don't see how enforcing socket colors will make gemming more interesting. If our only choice for a blue socket is a pure or hybrid blue gem, there's not much to think about there. Having to figure out whether a pure red gem will give more of our primary stat than we'd get with the socket bonus will at least make us do a little math. Gemming to maximize our primary stat isn't interesting, but neither is gemming to match socket colors.


It would get us to using more than 1 gem. What im trying to suggest would cause us to use all 6 colors rather than 1 (or on rare occation 2-3). True, lack of choice is not the most interesting thing in the world but only using 1 gem is far worse.

What i suggested would leave in some of the math (do i want to use a pure gem and get a socket bonus or a hybrid of my primary stat?) but would cause pure blue/and yellow gems to be viable as well. Throw in requiring green gems for meta sockets it would be possible to end up using all 6 gem types.

I also like the idea of removing primary stats from all gems save JC gems. But the current system is broken. Red gems are too valuable, and gems that dont have any red in them are worthless to everyone save tanks (who make up the least populous role in wow).

I dont think this is a good design. All gems should have some value. We should use MORE gems than just reds and on rare occasions their hybrids. No matter how you look at it using 6 gems is more interesting than 1-3.
Gemming is sort of boring right now because red, primary-stat gems are almost always worth a lot more than anything else.

For any DPS spec, you can calculate some kind of stat weight, telling you how much your primary stat, crit, hit, etc are worth. For any such spec, you can programmatically choose your gems. Even if primary stats showed up in smaller amounts, so you're balancing 30 int vs 40 mastery, it's still an easy math problem to solve.

There's really no solution to this, unless you want DPS people to balance non-output stats (such as mana regen, survivability, and so on) against output stats.

With tanks and healers, there's a bit more interesting decisions there primarily because you're balancing throughput (TPS/HPS) with other stats (regen / mitigation / avoidance).

Ultimately though, Jewelcrafting primarily serves the purpose of providing some kind of customizability to a piece of gear. The weird thing is that reforging does *exactly the same thing* If gem slots didn't exist, we could still do things like make sure we don't go over hit/expertise caps, balance throughput with regen, and so on. Reforging doesn't require a profession, either. So, yeah: jewelcrafting is pretty boring all around, but there's probably not much to do for it. At least there's demand for gems once you gear up; unlike other professions.
You have exactly nailed the problem with the current gem model. It results in the vast majority of the gems being nearly worthless. It makes gemming decisions obvious and uninteresting. However, your suggestion for a fix is not the best.

Frankly, Blizzard screwed up. They made primary stats much more valuable than secondary (to healers and damage-dealers). That's great on gear, because it means that upgrades are nearly always real upgrades. However, they screwed up when they didn't adjust the stat budget cost of the other stats. They were identical for all primary and secondary stats but Stamina, Spell Penetration, and Attack Power for Wrath, and stayed identical for Cataclysm. So, the same quality of gem gives you 40 intellect or 40 crit rating...where the intellect is much more valuable and the crit rating gem should never be used by any spec ever.

Oops.

Blizzard has fixed the problem for Mists. Gems of the same quality award more secondary stats than primary. For instance, a red Jewelcrafting gem awards either 320 strength or 480 parry rating

This is the correct way to fix the problem, and they should have done it years ago. It also avoids causing worse problems. Almost all of the other solutions would cause more problems than they solve. Blizzard got this one right.

Now, they just have to balance everything properly. They need to make it so that 100 intellect will contribute just as much to your damage output as 150 crit rating does. This should be...difficult. However, if they get it right, then all gem choices, whether with primary or secondary stats, should contribute about the same to throughput. Then, things will be more interesting.
I've used this example before, but it bears repeating...

In my left hand, I have 100 cents.
In my right hand, I have 100 dollars.

You can have either one you want. But you can only pick one! Or if you want, I can let you choose 50/50.

...Blizzard can't figure out why everybody keeps picking the right hand. They are sitting there scratching their heads and lamenting, "but they're both 100!"
Wait...what. Is that even true? Bonus per socket?
I always assumed you were either gemmed correctly to get the socket bonus or you get nothing.
Or am I completely misinterpreting what you are saying (typing)?


What i mean is how they determine the numbers on the bonus.

A wrist with a single slot will have a socket bonus of +10 item points. This can be 10 intell, 10str, 10mastery, 10 crit, or 15 stamina (1.5stamina per item point)

Now you get an item with 2 sockets on it. The bonus is going to be 20stats. 3 you get 30stat points.

The only exception to this is your helm who gets 30 stats for the non-meta socket.

Whether you choose to get the bonus is up to you but that is how the numbers are determined.
04/24/2012 01:34 AMPosted by Kathuckae
However, your suggestion for a fix is not the best.


I agree getting the stat budgets of primary stats and 2ndary stats corrected would be the best solution, I just dont think blizzard can balance things that well. Then there is the way that the value of stats can vary depending on other stats.

For instance for a destro lock haste becomes an INCREDIBLE stat if you get enough to get an extra immolate tick. Afterwards its HORRIBLE and SLOWLY climbs back up in importance.

I made the suggestion i did as i thought that would be a simple fix that would not take all choice out of gemming.

But again i COMPLETELY agree that balancing the stats would make my idea moot.
04/24/2012 07:03 AMPosted by Tehroddy
Until Blizzard decide to move the primary attributes to colours something other than red!


This is not the way. It would severely screw up the model. For instance, if intellect and crit are both yellow, how do you get a hybrid intellect/crit gem?

Blizzard is doing it the right way for Mists. See response #11 http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4661686424#11 for an explanation of what they're doing.
I agree it would be nice if the stats were set up on the gems such that Int was on on prime color, Agility on a second, and strength on the third with the combo colors having combinations. Heck, introduce pastels for PVP gems even. It would spread the market and make the current crap gems actually worth bothering with. I've actually dumped some a few times at the vendor just to get them out of my bank because they simply don't sell. Meanwhile, the competition to sell the rubies and diamonds is pretty cutthroat. I actually think it might help profits overall if the market were spread over all of them.
04/24/2012 01:34 AMPosted by Kathuckae
Then, things will be more interesting.


Will it? You still have the same problem- one or the other is mathematically going to be better (nevermind different specs will favor different stats). You'll just have more people making mistakes, but it'll cost them less dps. But it's still not very interesting.

They can make it harder, but i don't think they can make it interesting, unless they put in crazy breakpoint behavior (ie, if you gem crit, you get a special effect like an extra dot tick, but you can't reforge enough to hit it). Like haste breakpoints are currently.
I agree it would be nice if the stats were set up on the gems such that Int was on one prime color, Agility on a second, and strength on the third with the combo colors having combinations. Heck, introduce pastels for PVP gems even. It would spread the market and make the current crap gems actually worth bothering with.


Moving the primary stats onto separate colors creates a new problem: How do you get hybrid gems with every stat combination when the primary stats are spread out? Mastery, for example, is a stat that does different things for every spec, but if it still came from yellow gems, and agility was switched to yellow, you couldn't get agility/mastery hybrids. Enhancement shamans would weep, to say the least. As I think about it, we can have a system where every color is worth buying, or a system where every secondary stat can fit with a primary stat on the same gem (almost, but how valuable is strength/parry?).

It would require redoing every gem cut since BC and the socket bonuses on every piece of gear that has one, and considering how frequently Blizzard likes to re-tune material from previous expansions, this wouldn't be a high priority. Adding some new colors for PvP gems would have the same problems related to changing old content, and also raise the complexity of hybrid gem possibilities to a new energy level.
04/29/2012 08:17 PMPosted by Arianity
Then, things will be more interesting.


Will it? You still have the same problem- one or the other is mathematically going to be better (nevermind different specs will favor different stats). You'll just have more people making mistakes, but it'll cost them less dps. But it's still not very interesting.


Well, if it's balanced perfectly, the idea is that you will do the same DPS, but you will do it different ways. A STR gem will make you hit harder. A hit gem will make you miss less. A haste gem will make you hit faster. A crit gem will make you crit more. A mastery gem will do...well, whatever.... All of these things make you do more damage. They just do it in different ways. If the balance is good, then they'd all contribute the same over time. So, then there's a an interesting choice in how you want to do that additional damage.

Of course, it's really hard to balance just right, so there's no guarantee. It's going to be a lot closer than it is now, though!

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