bye bye Rogue Subtlety in MOP

Rogue
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Honestly, i cant believe the horrid (and morbid) nerf that sutblety is having in MOP, now - Honor among thieves - works only in combat, i know this is still beta, and many things will change before the release, but when we talk about the rogues, i havent seen changes ( or at least some significant) with this class and with this talent tree in all the patches of the beta D: im gonna be a sad panda rogue
We'll get last minute changes, then scale with armor, become OP, then do it all again the XPack after MoP.

Yay for cycles.
They're pretty much gutting Rogue PvP so far in MoP with little in the way of compensation so far.

3 min Vanish, 2 min Cloak, 3 min Blind. Choose between Prep/Step. Smokebomb off Prep. Loss of all Ambush/Backstab buffing abilities. Now the HAT nerf. lol It's like they're going through and just systematically dismantling any relative strength Rogues have.

Looks like we'll just tunnel vision DPS when we're not in Roots. Joy.
We'll get last minute changes, then scale with armor, become OP, then do it all again the XPack after MoP.

Yay for cycles.


Well, in previous expansions, they pretty much ignored us. This Beta is disturbing because they're just going across the board and nerfing pretty much everything, which they haven't really done before.
This change will even out sub in PvE a bit.

Currently, on bosses sub works up 5 cps for SnD before the fight and then opens into a rupture then recuperate. Sub then needs to try to keep recup and SnD up while using eviscerate to dump combo points/refresh rupture.

Since sub rogues don't need to use recuperate in pve in MoP, the rotation would have been get SnD up before fight, then spam eviscerate and keep hemo bleed up.

With the new patch, it will be open into a SnD (most likely) then keep rupture up while using eviscerate to dump combo points.

Its basically boiling down to what it was on live, but without the pre-fight SnD and worrying about refreshing anything with evis. Rupture and SnD will be what we need to keep up.

I guess they're trying to make sub a little... more then it was turning out to be.

I don't hardcore pve, so this is just my take on the changes. They suck for pvp though, forcing sub rogues to keep rupture up for 25% damage? That could be one of the worst changes so far.
05/01/2012 05:36 PMPosted by Weran
With the new patch, it will be open into a SnD (most likely) then keep rupture up while using eviscerate to dump combo points.


It will play exactly like.....Combat! Well, when Combat uses Rupture. The two specs are interchangeable now, except for weapons and their cooldowns. Same playstyle. Actually, Combat will be way more likely to have shadowstep, oddly enough.
Sub will suffer the same problem in pvp that combat does currently - there's simply no yellow damage.

Guaranteed crits - gone
Lethality - gone

Flat damage buff ability buffed to 25%, leaving less room for powerful yellow hits (in order to keep overall dps balanced). Add to that, it now requires a rupture or garrote from you personally to work, meaning consumption of your much needed cp's potentially. We all know how great the flat damage buff of bandit's guile worked for combat in pvp. At least combat's damage buff persists between targets on beta, sub's not even THAT lucky in that regard.

I'm pretty confident that sub will be a dead pvp spec in MoP in its current state on beta. If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on assassination being the pvp spec of choice.
05/01/2012 05:39 PMPosted by Blacksad
It will play exactly like.....Combat! Well, when Combat uses Rupture. The two specs are interchangeable now, except for weapons and their cooldowns. Same playstyle. Actually, Combat will be way more likely to have shadowstep, oddly enough.


Exactly like combat except... we need to be behind our targets!

Yay, flavor!
Exactly like combat except... we need to be behind are targets!

Yay, flavor!


And without Cleave, worse target swapping due to the need for Rupture, having no Shadowstep, and worse cooldowns.

Why they felt manually reapplying Rupture was more interesting than having it auto refresh on Eviscerate is beyond me, especially given the fact that Hemo no longer fulfills the bleed obligation for the damage buff.

The voracity with which they're bending us over in MOP is borderline disturbing.
[quote]Why they felt manually reapplying Rupture was more interesting than having it auto refresh on Eviscerate is beyond me, especially given the fact that Hemo no longer fulfills the bleed obligation for the damage buff.


Probably because we don't have to keep up recoup AND SnD anymore so they want us to rupture instead of evis spam but i don't really like the tallent losses either.
In order to attempt to make all Rogue specs to be competitive in PvP, Energetic Recovery had to be removed from Recuperate. I don't know if that was Blizzard's reasoning, but simply said it was too big a survivability advantage of Sub over Mut and Combat.

So what happens to Sub PvE when you simply remove a Recuperate from the rotation? There's only one finisher left to refresh, Rupture. SnD had a 40+ second duration, how many times do you think you could have thrown an Eviscerate in for a refresh? You'd practically never have to worry about it again. Sub's rotation would become exceedingly dull.

Spam Hemo/BS to 5, refresh Rupture, and otherwise Eviscerate isn't exactly over-complicated, but it's a damn sight better than what was to become the alternative.

Many Rogues here/elsewhere are worried about Rogue PvP. Yes, Rogues have been given several nerfs. What you're forgetting is that MoP is still in Beta. Classes and specs aren't yet balanced, and I'm not just talking about a "damage pass." Ability durations and CDs are part of that.

So relax, Rogues will be fine.
05/01/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Madcapmcgee
So relax, Rogues will be fine.


I would love to believe this.

I hate the idea of complaining about things that aren't set in stone.

But that fact that the rogue community has been complaining about several key changes in the MoP beta, and that not only have none of these been addressed, but things are actually going downhill, is not a good sign.

Not only that, but instead of buffing rupture damage to make sub rogues wan't to include it in their rotation, they made it mandatory to use.
05/01/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Madcapmcgee
So relax, Rogues will be fine.


I certainly hope we'll be...

Its is still too early to tell but from what I've seen/read/heard PvP will be even more slow-paced come mop. With dispels having a CD and melee interrupts being on longer CDs it looks like the whole environment is changeing... You won't be able to get dispelled out of CCs as often so landing CC chains will become even more potent than it is now. Also as far as interrupts go not getting juked will play a MAJOR part in the metagame. Looks like everything will be back to a tactical environment rather than RNG-Burst environment.
05/01/2012 07:12 PMPosted by Weran
Not only that, but instead of buffing rupture damage to make sub rogues wan't to include it in their rotation, they made it mandatory to use.


Except again, we don't know if Rupture damage will be buffed or not, so we can't say "instead of."

Blizzard did address many Rogue concerns in this development, as anyone who was paying attention saw. At issue is that they didn't address those concerns in the way players wanted.

More accurately, they didn't address each players concern in the way that player wanted. How could they? Players want different things. If we can't all agree, how can Blizzard appease everyone?
Blizzard did address many Rogue concerns in this development, as anyone who was paying attention saw. At issue is that they didn't address those concerns in the way players wanted.


What issues were addressed in this patch?

All they did was make it so HaT only procs in combat and sang veins requires rupture or garrote.

The cheap shot glyph is nice, but it won't be seeing the light of live servers.
05/01/2012 05:39 PMPosted by Blacksad
With the new patch, it will be open into a SnD (most likely) then keep rupture up while using eviscerate to dump combo points.


It will play exactly like.....Combat! Well, when Combat uses Rupture. The two specs are interchangeable now, except for weapons and their cooldowns. Same playstyle. Actually, Combat will be way more likely to have shadowstep, oddly enough.


How do you figure a Combat rogue to be using Shadowstep over Burst of Speed?
You should be more specific:
Bye bye PVP Subtlety in MOP.

PVE Rogues will continue to be just fine. But, since I only care about PVP... This is a terrible terrible change. First, removing Recuperate from Energetic Recovery was pretty bad. Now, this...

I really hope Rupture does decent damage in MOP. Even still... Having to balance Recuperate, Rupture and Slice and Dice in PVP. Man. I don't even know. This expansion is getting worse every patch it feels like.

05/01/2012 07:46 PMPosted by Celinne
How do you figure a Combat rogue to be using Shadowstep over Burst of Speed?


GOSH CSHLEEN! SHHADO SHTEP INSTANTLY PORTSH YOU TO THE TARGET!
Shtupid bursh of shhit takesh 60 energy! SHIXTY ENERGY!!!!!
-
Seriously though, no competitive Rogue will choose Shadowstep over Burst of Speed. Doesn't matter what spec you are. :)
Sub will still prob be the best pvp spec.
Someone let me on the beta so I can burstofspeed my way around for no apparent reason?
05/01/2012 07:51 PMPosted by Snozyisback
Sub will still prob be the best pvp spec.


I will bet you a large sum of money, the next patch, Shadow Dance's burst is going to get nerfed. haha

05/01/2012 07:51 PMPosted by Celinne
Someone let me on the beta so I can burstofspeed my way around for no apparent reason?


If I knew you IRL, I'd share my acct info. :(

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