So Arthas didn't go to "Heaven"

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05/07/2012 01:41 PMPosted by Lothor
If Thrall is Moses then does that mean we can blame him for the Plague of Undeath?


We blame Ner'zhul/Lich King for that which came from necromancy via Kil'Jaeden/Burning Legion.


/woosh
05/07/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Rabanastre
Ok, I lose. I'm just going to go cuddle up with my life-size Prince Arthas cardboard cut-out and weep silently...


Awww, it's ok. Arthas is my fave character and I always find myself defending him too, even though I know he fell from grace and there was no redemption for him at the end. I do not think he did the wrong thing at Stratholme, and I've argued that a million times so I won't get into it here.

*hugs*
05/07/2012 02:04 PMPosted by Leylah
Ok, I lose. I'm just going to go cuddle up with my life-size Prince Arthas cardboard cut-out and weep silently...


Awww, it's ok. Arthas is my fave character and I always find myself defending him too, even though I know he fell from grace and there was no redemption for him at the end. I do not think he did the wrong thing at Stratholme, and I've argued that a million times so I won't get into it here.

*hugs*


I respectfully with endless Compassion disagree with you about Stratholme.
What choice did he have? He had no time with which to find a cure. Mal'Ganis was running around inside the city doing bad things. Everyone ate bread every day, it wasn't something you could preserve for days on end and it was a staple food. This meant at least 80% of the populace had eaten the tainted grain.

The plague worked in minutes, Arthas saw this at Hearthglen. Quarantine? How, where, with what army? They keep saying he didn't have tons and tons of men with him. Block the one or two entrances into the city? What happens when people find out they are being locked inside with the plague? They go nuts. How are his men going to fight off crazed mobs of people freaked out by the idea of death all around them? And what happens when those people start turning, then turning on each other and killing everyone else around them? THEN, they turn on soldiers, who are trained fighters and not simple townsfolk. Now you have soldiers among the zombies.

Do you think a gate or walls are going to stop zombies from trying to get out looking for brains?

Just tell me exactly what Arthas should have done?

If Jaina could have ported out to get help, she would have. Maybe back then she wasn't strong enough to teleport an entire army. I would think if she could have done that, she would have.

Those people were the walking dead. He knew it. And he made the decision to sacrifice the few for the greater good (Strat vs all of Lordaeron). He made the decision and he had the balls to stick by it even though it probably terrified and sickened him (at least it seemed that way in A:RotLK... things were changed from WC 3). He took their lives BEFORE they could become zombie food or turn into zombies themselves and then murder others. He damned his soul so that he could save their souls.

I am not saying what he did was good. It wasn't. It was a necessary evil.

His mistake was accusing Uther of treason, disbanding the Silver Hand and NOT going home to his dad to take responsibility.

Another thing... when he returned to Lordaeron, after Strat, after Northrend, after Muradin, after getting Frostmourne he was welcomed as a hero. Remember the people lining the streets and the rose petals? Remember his dad rising to greet him, happy that he was home?

They obviously forgave him for Stratholme so...

FWIW, if I was Jaina, I would have tied Arthas' !@# to a tree until they could get more men in to do something, but alas, Jaina didn't think of actually, physically stopping Arthas. If you are so full of conviction... if you believe he's about to do something THAT horrible and evil, you will risk being charged with treason to save his soul and save those people in that city. Just my opinion.

(I guess I'm saying I respectfully also disagree with you :P )
05/07/2012 12:23 PMPosted by Rabanastre
I need to get my hands on some of that if I'm going to pass my upcoming math final... Q_Q


Arthas would have passed your math final with ease....just saying..../swoon
Oh Arthas, please teach me your ways in acing math tests! I beg of you, it's the only subject I absolutely detest >:(!
What choice did he have? He had no time with which to find a cure. Mal'Ganis was running around inside the city doing bad things. Everyone ate bread every day, it wasn't something you could preserve for days on end and it was a staple food. This meant at least 80% of the populace had eaten the tainted grain.

The plague worked in minutes, Arthas saw this at Hearthglen. Quarantine? How, where, with what army? They keep saying he didn't have tons and tons of men with him. Block the one or two entrances into the city? What happens when people find out they are being locked inside with the plague? They go nuts. How are his men going to fight off crazed mobs of people freaked out by the idea of death all around them? And what happens when those people start turning, then turning on each other and killing everyone else around them? THEN, they turn on soldiers, who are trained fighters and not simple townsfolk. Now you have soldiers among the zombies.

Do you think a gate or walls are going to stop zombies from trying to get out looking for brains?

Just tell me exactly what Arthas should have done?

If Jaina could have ported out to get help, she would have. Maybe back then she wasn't strong enough to teleport an entire army. I would think if she could have done that, she would have.

Those people were the walking dead. He knew it. And he made the decision to sacrifice the few for the greater good (Strat vs all of Lordaeron). He made the decision and he had the balls to stick by it even though it probably terrified and sickened him (at least it seemed that way in A:RotLK... things were changed from WC 3). He took their lives BEFORE they could become zombie food or turn into zombies themselves and then murder others. He damned his soul so that he could save their souls.

I am not saying what he did was good. It wasn't. It was a necessary evil.

His mistake was accusing Uther of treason, disbanding the Silver Hand and NOT going home to his dad to take responsibility.

Another thing... when he returned to Lordaeron, after Strat, after Northrend, after Muradin, after getting Frostmourne he was welcomed as a hero. Remember the people lining the streets and the rose petals? Remember his dad rising to greet him, happy that he was home?

They obviously forgave him for Stratholme so...

FWIW, if I was Jaina, I would have tied Arthas' !@# to a tree until they could get more men in to do something, but alas, Jaina didn't think of actually, physically stopping Arthas. If you are so full of conviction... if you believe he's about to do something THAT horrible and evil, you will risk being charged with treason to save his soul and save those people in that city. Just my opinion.

(I guess I'm saying I respectfully also disagree with you :P )


I finally have an ally! *sniffle*



Arthas would have passed your math final with ease....just saying..../swoon
Oh Arthas, please teach me your ways in acing math tests! I beg of you, it's the only subject I absolutely detest >:(!


Too bad he's...he's...de- I cant even say it. It hurts too much =(
What choice did he have? He had no time with which to find a cure. Mal'Ganis was running around inside the city doing bad things. Everyone ate bread every day, it wasn't something you could preserve for days on end and it was a staple food. This meant at least 80% of the populace had eaten the tainted grain.

The plague worked in minutes, Arthas saw this at Hearthglen. Quarantine? How, where, with what army? They keep saying he didn't have tons and tons of men with him. Block the one or two entrances into the city? What happens when people find out they are being locked inside with the plague? They go nuts. How are his men going to fight off crazed mobs of people freaked out by the idea of death all around them? And what happens when those people start turning, then turning on each other and killing everyone else around them? THEN, they turn on soldiers, who are trained fighters and not simple townsfolk. Now you have soldiers among the zombies.

Do you think a gate or walls are going to stop zombies from trying to get out looking for brains?

Just tell me exactly what Arthas should have done?

If Jaina could have ported out to get help, she would have. Maybe back then she wasn't strong enough to teleport an entire army. I would think if she could have done that, she would have.

Those people were the walking dead. He knew it. And he made the decision to sacrifice the few for the greater good (Strat vs all of Lordaeron). He made the decision and he had the balls to stick by it even though it probably terrified and sickened him (at least it seemed that way in A:RotLK... things were changed from WC 3). He took their lives BEFORE they could become zombie food or turn into zombies themselves and then murder others. He damned his soul so that he could save their souls.

I am not saying what he did was good. It wasn't. It was a necessary evil.

His mistake was accusing Uther of treason, disbanding the Silver Hand and NOT going home to his dad to take responsibility.

Another thing... when he returned to Lordaeron, after Strat, after Northrend, after Muradin, after getting Frostmourne he was welcomed as a hero. Remember the people lining the streets and the rose petals? Remember his dad rising to greet him, happy that he was home?

They obviously forgave him for Stratholme so...

FWIW, if I was Jaina, I would have tied Arthas' !@# to a tree until they could get more men in to do something, but alas, Jaina didn't think of actually, physically stopping Arthas. If you are so full of conviction... if you believe he's about to do something THAT horrible and evil, you will risk being charged with treason to save his soul and save those people in that city. Just my opinion.

(I guess I'm saying I respectfully also disagree with you :P )


The beginning part I disagree with BUT the last part I can agree on. They should of thought of something. I'm sure the Paladins could of come up with SOMETHING. Alas, Lordaeron is gone.
What choice did he have? He had no time with which to find a cure. Mal'Ganis was running around inside the city doing bad things. Everyone ate bread every day, it wasn't something you could preserve for days on end and it was a staple food. This meant at least 80% of the populace had eaten the tainted grain.

The plague worked in minutes, Arthas saw this at Hearthglen. Quarantine? How, where, with what army? They keep saying he didn't have tons and tons of men with him. Block the one or two entrances into the city? What happens when people find out they are being locked inside with the plague? They go nuts. How are his men going to fight off crazed mobs of people freaked out by the idea of death all around them? And what happens when those people start turning, then turning on each other and killing everyone else around them? THEN, they turn on soldiers, who are trained fighters and not simple townsfolk. Now you have soldiers among the zombies.

Do you think a gate or walls are going to stop zombies from trying to get out looking for brains?

Just tell me exactly what Arthas should have done?

If Jaina could have ported out to get help, she would have. Maybe back then she wasn't strong enough to teleport an entire army. I would think if she could have done that, she would have.

Those people were the walking dead. He knew it. And he made the decision to sacrifice the few for the greater good (Strat vs all of Lordaeron). He made the decision and he had the balls to stick by it even though it probably terrified and sickened him (at least it seemed that way in A:RotLK... things were changed from WC 3). He took their lives BEFORE they could become zombie food or turn into zombies themselves and then murder others. He damned his soul so that he could save their souls.

I am not saying what he did was good. It wasn't. It was a necessary evil.

His mistake was accusing Uther of treason, disbanding the Silver Hand and NOT going home to his dad to take responsibility.

Another thing... when he returned to Lordaeron, after Strat, after Northrend, after Muradin, after getting Frostmourne he was welcomed as a hero. Remember the people lining the streets and the rose petals? Remember his dad rising to greet him, happy that he was home?

They obviously forgave him for Stratholme so...

FWIW, if I was Jaina, I would have tied Arthas' !@# to a tree until they could get more men in to do something, but alas, Jaina didn't think of actually, physically stopping Arthas. If you are so full of conviction... if you believe he's about to do something THAT horrible and evil, you will risk being charged with treason to save his soul and save those people in that city. Just my opinion.

(I guess I'm saying I respectfully also disagree with you :P )


There was no victory with Stratholme, that I can agree. I'm sure many paladins would have struggled with their faith if they had to do such a thing. However, like you said, he did damn his soul in the process and boy, were there repercussions.

I'm sure there could have been a simpler way to explain the situation to both Uther and Jaina, rather than him disbanding Uther's Order and telling him to pretty much piss off. As for the citizens, well... I'm sure the right thing to do would have been to evacuate as many people as possible and kill the ones who turned.

Would it have been practical? No. But paladins are supposed to be the "lawful good" guys, so Arthas instantly wanting to shed blood, did go against what they (Paladins) stood for. Let's not forget, evacuating citizens (However long it may have taken) would have, more or less, deprived Mal'Ganis of zombiefied soldiers to spirit away.

Maybe I'm missing something else, but really, I found that Arthas was overzealous during the whole scenario, but in a way, I couldn't blame him for such a rash decision. But we both know Arthas damned himself further when he chose to go after Mal rather than stay and help his people.

Just my 2 copper.
I just can't wrap my head around the fact that Jaina wouldn't do a thing to try and stop him. She walks away with Uther at Strat and thats that. She should have been with those soldiers that were ordered by the King to tell Arthas to come home. She would have used her womanly charm to convince Big A that he was on a fools errand. But nooooooooooo, she just, didn't appear. Ever. At all. Not once.

Also, Evangelos. if the Paladins under Arthas' command at Strat let even ONE civilian leave, that would have spread the plague. The sacrifice of the entire populace of Strat was MORE than justified. Sacrifice Strat, or sacrifice, potentially, the ENTIRE EASTERN KINGDOM. Arthas' logic was completely sound. Yes, it fights with an average soldiers morals, but it was the right decision.
I just can't wrap my head around the fact that Jaina wouldn't do a thing to try and stop him. She walks away with Uther at Strat and thats that. She should have been with those soldiers that were ordered by the King to tell Arthas to come home. She would have used her womanly charm to convince Big A that he was on a fools errand. But nooooooooooo, she just, didn't appear. Ever. At all. Not once.

Well, it's not her !@#$ing job. Ever consider that? When your boyfriend starts acting like an entitled baby the best thing to do is ignore him and not give him the attention he wants.
05/07/2012 02:55 PMPosted by Rabanastre
I just can't wrap my head around the fact that Jaina wouldn't do a thing to try and stop him.


She was still in love with him. By Warcraft III standards however....you couldn't tell that. :(

Well, it's not her !@#$ing job. Ever consider that? When your boyfriend starts acting like an entitled baby the best thing to do is ignore him and not give him the attention he wants.


That isn't a valid reason at all.
I just can't wrap my head around the fact that Jaina wouldn't do a thing to try and stop him. She walks away with Uther at Strat and thats that. She should have been with those soldiers that were ordered by the King to tell Arthas to come home. She would have used her womanly charm to convince Big A that he was on a fools errand. But nooooooooooo, she just, didn't appear. Ever. At all. Not once.

Also, Evangelos. if the Paladins under Arthas' command at Strat let even ONE civilian leave, that would have spread the plague. The sacrifice of the entire populace of Strat was MORE than justified. Sacrifice Strat, or sacrifice, potentially, the ENTIRE EASTERN KINGDOM. Arthas' logic was completely sound. Yes, it fights with an average soldiers morals, but it was the right decision.


Reason why she wasn't there is because she was preparing to leave to Kalimdor after listening to the Prophet's words. She knew that Arthas was pretty much a lost cause after seeing what happened to Stratholme.
I just can't wrap my head around the fact that Jaina wouldn't do a thing to try and stop him. She walks away with Uther at Strat and thats that. She should have been with those soldiers that were ordered by the King to tell Arthas to come home. She would have used her womanly charm to convince Big A that he was on a fools errand. But nooooooooooo, she just, didn't appear. Ever. At all. Not once.

Also, Evangelos. if the Paladins under Arthas' command at Strat let even ONE civilian leave, that would have spread the plague. The sacrifice of the entire populace of Strat was MORE than justified. Sacrifice Strat, or sacrifice, potentially, the ENTIRE EASTERN KINGDOM. Arthas' logic was completely sound. Yes, it fights with an average soldiers morals, but it was the right decision.


Reason why she wasn't there is because she was preparing to leave to Kalimdor after listening to the Prophet's words. She knew that Arthas was pretty much a lost cause after seeing what happened to Stratholme.


If she thought he was a lost cause, why later on in Northrend did she try to assist Tirion in getting him back to the Light Side?
05/07/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Sagerius
Reason why she wasn't there is because she was preparing to leave to Kalimdor after listening to the Prophet's words. She knew that Arthas was pretty much a lost cause after seeing what happened to Stratholme.
I'm sure she also couldn't have imagined how far he'd fall.


Reason why she wasn't there is because she was preparing to leave to Kalimdor after listening to the Prophet's words. She knew that Arthas was pretty much a lost cause after seeing what happened to Stratholme.


If she thought he was a lost cause, why later on in Northrend did she try to assist Tirion in getting him back to the Light Side?


We're talking about in Warcraft 3, when she thought he was a lost cause to change his mind for going back. Back then he thought anything was needed to save his people and nothing would sway him. Besides, she listened to the prophet's warning, and she couldn't waste anymore time trying to convince Arthas while at the same time she was preparing to boat west.
05/07/2012 03:07 PMPosted by Lothor
That isn't a valid reason at all.

You've never had a whiny, spoiled significant other.
The true reason why Lich King is going to hell:

He made Death Knights. And yes. I'm talking about the Playerbase.

- Blood Elf Deathknight
05/07/2012 03:07 PMPosted by Omacron
Well, it's not her !@#$ing job. Ever consider that? When your boyfriend starts acting like an entitled baby the best thing to do is ignore him and not give him the attention he wants.


If my husband was about to go off the deep end (him being the "love of my life") and commit what I considered murder, you better believe I would have tried anything to stop him. I would have risked treason, I would have ported him out, I would have slapped him to shake him out of it.. whatever. You don't say you love someone and then just let them dive headlong into what you consider an evil action.

Ignoring a 4 yr old who wants a lollipop in Wal-Mart is a bit easier than ignoring your lover who is about to kill a ton of innocent people in the name of good.

05/07/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Sagerius
Reason why she wasn't there is because she was preparing to leave to Kalimdor after listening to the Prophet's words. She knew that Arthas was pretty much a lost cause after seeing what happened to Stratholme.


Medivh didn't talk to her until 3 days after the culling, so that isn't the reason she wasn't there during the culling. She walked away because boohoo she was shocked by what Arthas planned to do.

05/07/2012 03:19 PMPosted by Omacron
You've never had a whiny, spoiled significant other.


Hey, I resemble that remark! But seriously, I'm sure my SO would tell you that I'm kind of spoiled, not so much whiny, but you know... only child syndrome and all that. That said, he'd never abandon me if I was faced with such a moral dilemma.

When Arthas needed her -- needed anyone -- the most, she went "omg, that's so.. so mean!" and walked away. Yeah, I hold her partially responsible for his downfall.

Again, I'm not saying Arthas should have been redeemed. He did do bad things. Worse after Frostmourne but I can't blame him for that, too much. The stuff between Stratholme and when he picked up Frostmourne was all him. Afterwards, he knew he was doing terrible things and he didn't care because he had NO soul at that point.
You didn't read the thread upwards. The OP wanted Jaina to fly all the way to Northrend with the king's men to stop him. She was already told by Medivh and she was preparing to head west most likely unaware that the king's men were going there anyway.

Jaina just can't go with them and then prepare to go west if it failed. That would waste time. At that point she most likely knew Arthas was a lost cause after she saw what happened to Stratholme after The Culling. At this point Arthas wasn't turning back from trying saving his people no matter what, and Jaina chose the path to Kalimdor.
You didn't read the thread upwards. The OP wanted Jaina to fly all the way to Northrend with the king's men to stop him. She was already told by Medivh and she was preparing to head west most likely unaware that the king's men were going there anyway.

Jaina just can't go with them and then prepare to go west if it failed. That would waste time. At that point she most likely knew Arthas was a lost cause after she saw what happened to Stratholme after The Culling. At this point Arthas wasn't turning back from trying saving his people no matter what, and Jaina chose the path to Kalimdor.


You dont find the fact that Jaina chose to follow the advice of a rambling old random crow guy over the gloomy looking future of the supposed "love of her life"? That just shows what a terrible person she is.

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