How to Destroy the Undercity

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05/17/2012 03:06 PMPosted by Vynathlon
jokes do not equal lore. Try to distinguish things that don't exist from such things.


It's not a joke. You use it to freaking melt a vrykul and it foreshadows the Wrathgate.

05/17/2012 03:06 PMPosted by Vynathlon
You really think there aren't any spies in any of the Alliance or Horde cities? If the scourge were able to send their own spies into the Undercity it isn't that far to say that the Forsaken were able to send their own spies into other cities as well. Besides there's this thing called magic in wow in which you can disguise yourself using it.


Correct, I don't. Because there isn't a single shred of proof that there is.

Also, it's easy for undead to blend in with other undead. Not so easy for undead to blend in with Humans.

Also, and I'm sure you already know this:

You're making !@#$ up.

05/17/2012 03:06 PMPosted by Vynathlon
he's completely and utterly creating lore for his own benefits. My points were based off of logic on what would actually happen. Yours just seems like your disapproval of anything Forsaken doing well.


Difference is that he outright said that his scenario was complete fan fiction while you're trying to present your own fan fiction as canon fact.

If we're allowed to flat out make lore up in this thread then I'm going to say that the Alliance autowins the war because they have an anti-Horde deathray that the Gnomes have been working on in secret.
A project this big would probably involve a majority of the gnomes and alchemists of the Alliance. This sort of meeting cannot be held secret to the Forsaken/Horde spies inside of the Alliance cities.


Just to clarify, that doesn't really make sense since the Alliance had NO BLOODY clue about the Forsaken Plague and yet you claim there are spies in enemy capital cities which there is no evidence to it other then pure speculation on your part based on some books in Acherus show when you are in the Death Knight Starting area. It COULD be true but you seem to have contradicted yourself.
@Vynathlon:

IRL I am a former military member and combat veteran. Additionally, the degree I alluded to earlier is in military history. I can tell you from personal experience and extensive study that every single weapon ever created and every weapon that will be created can be countered to some extent. In the case of chemical weapons it becomes more difficult but it can be done.

@Vyrin:

It is short-sighted to think that the Horde doesn't have spies in the Alliance and, for that matter, the Alliance doesn't have spies in Horde cities. With all the illusion magic running around it would be possible to do this. In fact, there is a series of quests at Venomspite in Dragonblight where you see and interact with a Forsaken spy within the Scralet Onslaught.

The result is it would be part of the shadow war that has been conducted alongside every single major war in history. Perhaps the Alliance would win and find a way to counter the Blight. Perhaps the Forsaken would win and counter the Alliance counter. Perhaps the Blood Elves (not likely since Blizz ignores them) would win and warn the Horde that the real attack in going to be in Hillsbrad. Perhaps the Alliance wins and Dreani prophets (not likely since Blizz ignores them too) foresee the path the Blood Elf spy will use to get to the Horde and then Night Elves ambush and kill him. Perhaps nobody....you get the point. This is all speculation.
05/17/2012 03:25 PMPosted by Telonis
IRL I am a former military member and combat veteran. Additionally, the degree I alluded to earlier is in military history. I can tell you from personal experience and extensive study that every single weapon ever created and every weapon that will be created can be countered to some extent. In the case of chemical weapons it becomes more difficult but it can be done.
I'm not saying that you can't counter it, just that if such a conference were to take place that the Forsaken would learn about it or suspect it and try to make the plague stronger. It's pretty unlikely that they'd be able to figure out the exact ingredients of the antidote but there's a larger chance that it won't work if the Forsaken do manage to attempt to improve onto it, or at the very least attempt to kill the Alliance armies in some other way than the plague.
05/17/2012 03:28 PMPosted by Vynathlon
I'm not saying that you can't counter it, just that if such a conference were to take place that the Forsaken would learn about it or suspect it and try to make the plague stronger.


Except no such conference would be necessary because the Alliance already knows the ins and outs of the plague. One drunk gnome replicated it by accident.

05/17/2012 03:28 PMPosted by Vynathlon
It's pretty unlikely that they'd be able to figure out the exact ingredients of the antidote


They already have.

Just because the Forsaken fail so hard at science that it took them years to develop something a Gnome did in a few hours doesn't mean that the Gnomes are as incompetent.

05/17/2012 03:28 PMPosted by Vynathlon
or at the very least attempt to kill the Alliance armies in some other way than the plague.


With what? Force of arms? The reason they needed the plague in the first place was because they were incapable of winning any other way.
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And with the Sha of Hatred fleeing Taran Zhu's body to who knows where at the end of The Shado Pan Monastary Dungeon what is to stop both The Undercity and Stormwind from being major Raid patches before The Seige of Orgrimmar as a result of temporary(or not so temporary in Sylvanas's case) Sha possession.
[quote="51485835607"SPOILERS[/quote]

....SPOILERS MAN!!!!!
05/17/2012 03:45 PMPosted by Archpaladin
And with the Sha of Hatred fleeing Taran Zhu's body to who knows where at the end of The Shado Pan Monastary Dungeon what is to stop both The Undercity and Stormwind from being major Raid patches before The Seige of Orgrimmar as a result of temporary(or not so temporary in Sylvanas's case) Sha possession.


Yes, exactly what is needed, more scapegoat corruptions.
05/17/2012 03:51 PMPosted by Sternbridge
And with the Sha of Hatred fleeing Taran Zhu's body to who knows where at the end of The Shado Pan Monastary Dungeon what is to stop both The Undercity and Stormwind from being major Raid patches before The Seige of Orgrimmar as a result of temporary(or not so temporary in Sylvanas's case) Sha possession.


Yes, exactly what is needed, more scapegoat corruptions.


SPOILERS!!!
05/17/2012 03:43 PMPosted by Vyrin
With what? Force of arms? The reason they needed the plague in the first place was because they were incapable of winning any other way.
Well considering that this entire situation is breaching actual lore means that they could use anything they wanted to. Do not underestimate the Forsaken's insanity as if they are faced with death they would likely release a monstrosity upon the world to kill their enemies anyways. For instance, the old god suspected to be living under the region. Who's to say that they could try to retrieve it causing the entire region to essentially get destroyed?
05/17/2012 03:58 PMPosted by Vynathlon
For instance, the old god suspected to be living under the region.


Where does this come from?

Is everyone just looking at the ground where something bad has happened and assuming an Old God must be under there somewhere now?
05/17/2012 04:00 PMPosted by Brukk
For instance, the old god suspected to be living under the region.


Where does this come from?

Is everyone just looking at the ground where something bad has happened and assuming an Old God must be under there somewhere now?


When the High Elves/Quel'Dorei were looking for a land to take as their own there was a rea west of Tiristfal Glades(It was still in the zone but anyways). Some Elves began to go mad for some reason. So then they moved to what is now Quel'thalas. It's speculated that an Old God is beneath Tiristfall. Then again it wouldn't make sense that Lordaernians didn't go mad because of it or maybe they weren't close to this supposed Old God's reach.

Who knows /shrug
Edit:


Where does this come from?

Is everyone just looking at the ground where something bad has happened and assuming an Old God must be under there somewhere now?


When the High Elves/Quel'Dorei were looking for a land to take as their own there was a rea west of Tiristfal Glades(It was still in the zone but anyways). Some Elves began to go mad for some reason. So then they moved to what is now Quel'thalas. It's speculated that an Old God is beneath Tiristfall. Then again it wouldn't make sense that Lordaernians didn't go mad because of it or maybe they weren't close to this supposed Old God's reach.

Who knows /shrug
More or less this. Except that possibly the old god had plans for the Forsaken or the human kingdoms so he didn't make many disturbances. But an incoming Alliance army coming to destroy them might be just what they need to destroy so that the Horde would have free reign of the planet, causing them to die off as the Burning Legion invades a second time and cracks open the planet freeing them.
Edit:


When the High Elves/Quel'Dorei were looking for a land to take as their own there was a rea west of Tiristfal Glades(It was still in the zone but anyways). Some Elves began to go mad for some reason. So then they moved to what is now Quel'thalas. It's speculated that an Old God is beneath Tiristfall. Then again it wouldn't make sense that Lordaernians didn't go mad because of it or maybe they weren't close to this supposed Old God's reach.

Who knows /shrug
More or less this. Except that possibly the old god had plans for the Forsaken or the human kingdoms so he didn't make many disturbances. But an incoming Alliance army coming to destroy them might be just what they need to destroy so that the Horde would have free reign of the planet, causing them to die off as the Burning Legion invades a second time and cracks open the planet freeing them.


Oh I already believe an Old God is down there...somewhere or in another dimension somewhere. Still I would rather they do what you did unleash a powerful force beneath the earth(Old Gods) instead of the Old Gods being the cause of the Forsaken's malice and negative emotions.
05/17/2012 03:58 PMPosted by Vynathlon
With what? Force of arms? The reason they needed the plague in the first place was because they were incapable of winning any other way.
Well considering that this entire situation is breaching actual lore means that they could use anything they wanted to. Do not underestimate the Forsaken's insanity as if they are faced with death they would likely release a monstrosity upon the world to kill their enemies anyways. For instance, the old god suspected to be living under the region. Who's to say that they could try to retrieve it causing the entire region to essentially get destroyed?

Interesting, and something the Forsaken might try if backed into a corner.

Of course if we're going to play with whatever is beneath Tirisfal, since we are not certain what it is at the moment, what if it turns out to be a benevolent being who decides to use this opertunity to transform all of the Forsaken back into living humans.
Which might come as surprise to some of the members who never were human like the Valkryr.
When the High Elves/Quel'Dorei were looking for a land to take as their own there was a rea west of Tiristfal Glades(It was still in the zone but anyways). Some Elves began to go mad for some reason. So then they moved to what is now Quel'thalas. It's speculated that an Old God is beneath Tiristfall. Then again it wouldn't make sense that Lordaernians didn't go mad because of it or maybe they weren't close to this supposed Old God's reach.

Who knows /shrug


That is really old lore though. And I'm not sure the Old Gods even existed at the time that was written...

Though they could be retconned in I suppose.
Spoilers
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- And with the Sha of Hatred fleeing Taran Zhu's body to who knows where at the end of The Shado Pan Monastary Dungeon what is to stop both The Undercity and Stormwind from being major Raid patches before The Seige of Orgrimmar as a result of temporary(or not so temporary in Sylvanas's case) Sha possession.

Spoilers
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It seems I was mistaken The Sha of Hatred does escape Taran Zhu's body yet gets killed in Townlong Steppes(good riddance).
I'd just like to point out that any "cure" the alliance comes up with will be short lived. I'm playing through NR on my troll shammy and it seems relatively easy to make adjustments to the blight. In one case, crabs are used to boost it's potency "or atlreast increase the chance of infection". it is tested on alliance ships and one plague bomb seems to do a whole ship in. It is stated to be designed to kill all flesh, living dead and undead. We then see in Wrath that the final version allows for animations now that the LK is defeated. I'd think in any full scale war for the forsakens survival, they might make use of all the generations of blight.
When the High Elves/Quel'Dorei were looking for a land to take as their own there was a rea west of Tiristfal Glades(It was still in the zone but anyways). Some Elves began to go mad for some reason. So then they moved to what is now Quel'thalas. It's speculated that an Old God is beneath Tiristfall. Then again it wouldn't make sense that Lordaernians didn't go mad because of it or maybe they weren't close to this supposed Old God's reach.

Who knows /shrug


That is really old lore though. And I'm not sure the Old Gods even existed at the time that was written...

Though they could be retconned in I suppose.


Oh I know it's old but until Blizzard retcons it it's still part of it.

I'd just like to point out that any "cure" the alliance comes up with will be short lived. I'm playing through NR on my troll shammy and it seems relatively easy to make adjustments to the blight. In one case, crabs are used to boost it's potency "or atlreast increase the chance of infection". it is tested on alliance ships and one plague bomb seems to do a whole ship in. It is stated to be designed to kill all flesh, living dead and undead. We then see in Wrath that the final version allows for animations now that the LK is defeated. I'd think in any full scale war for the forsakens survival, they might make use of all the generations of blight.


Which can be unnoticed for only so long.
05/17/2012 06:19 PMPosted by Aeluron
Oh I know it's old but until Blizzard retcons it it's still part of it.


Not what I meant.

But you're right in any case.

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