5.4 PVP Stat Guide

Battlegrounds
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Great guide.

A key question:

Graph 2 in Section 1E shows Effective Health (EH) as linear.

However, in the graph I can see the percentage increase in EH diminishing as resilience rating increases.

An increase from 2,000 to 4,000 rating increases EH from 195.1 to 223.5. This is an increase in EH of 14.5% (223.5/195.1 = 1.145).

An increase from 8,000 to 10,000 rating increases EH from 280.4 to 308.8. This is an increase in EH of 10.1% (308.8/280.4 = 1.101).

A. Does this mean that resilience now suffers from diminishing returns?

B. Does this make each additional point of resilience less and less valuable? (Probably, the same question as A.)
Niks, resilience has linear returns when evaluated absolutely, not relatively. In other words if you had 100k displayed health you would gain 1.42k effective health for every 100 resilience rating you gain. That doesn't diminish, you will always get that same return. PVP Power works the same way, as does almost every other stat in the game. In order for it to give linear relative returns it would need to get significantly more powerful the more of it you got, which would make the stat too strong.

So to directly answer your questions:

A. Does this mean that resilience now suffers from diminishing returns?

That is not how I would describe it because absolute valuation makes more sense, however it is technically correct if you use relative evaluation.

B. Does this make each additional point of resilience less and less valuable? (Probably, the same question as A.)

This has the same answer as question A.

For more info on relative vs absolute valuation I recommend reading Appendix A.
I've noticed that S13 Malevolent gear has more resilience than 2/2 S12 Malevolent gear.

Furthermore, S13 Malevolent gear has more resilience than Tyrannical gear.

For a class that is more concerned with survivability as opposed to damage (like my resto druid), am I going to want to get the S13 malevolent gear and ignore tyrannical?
Niks, resilience has linear returns when evaluated absolutely, not relatively. In other words if you had 100k displayed health you would gain 1.42k effective health for every 100 resilience rating you gain. That doesn't diminish, you will always get that same return. PVP Power works the same way, as does almost every other stat in the game. In order for it to give linear relative returns it would need to get significantly more powerful the more of it you got, which would make the stat too strong.

So to directly answer your questions:

A. Does this mean that resilience now suffers from diminishing returns?

That is not how I would describe it because absolute valuation makes more sense, however it is technically correct if you use relative evaluation.

B. Does this make each additional point of resilience less and less valuable? (Probably, the same question as A.)

This has the same answer as question A.

For more info on relative vs absolute valuation I recommend reading Appendix A.


Excellent. Thanks for the reply.
I've noticed that S13 Malevolent gear has more resilience than 2/2 S12 Malevolent gear.

Furthermore, S13 Malevolent gear has more resilience than Tyrannical gear.

For a class that is more concerned with survivability as opposed to damage (like my resto druid), am I going to want to get the S13 malevolent gear and ignore tyrannical?
Your resto druid gains some survivability from other stats (int makes your HoTs tick for more, haste lets you Cyclone faster, ...). The answer to your question will depend on your stat weights.

Looking at just Season 13 leather meditation belts, Malevolent gives you 45 more resil and 45 more pvp power. The Tyrannical gives you 130 more int, and over 400 more of other stats.

Given a choice, most people will take the Tyrannical.
hola a todos primero quiero decir que no se si este es el mejor lugar para debatir este tema y segundo a lo mejor de lo que diga siguiente mente pueda yo estar en un error o esta bien.
Es en cuanto a la comparacion de los set de malevolo con tiranico en cuanto al a resilence y pvp power me parece que el malevolo iene mucho mas que el tiranico en cuanto a comparacion y en cuanto a los otros esta el tiranico lo supera la pregunta es esta correcto eso pq me parece que lo que se quiere en pvp son esas das cosas principales todo lo demas es bueno digo pero sin resilence y pvp power es pve por favor quisiera que me rectifiquen si estoy equivocado o estoy bien y el selicence tiene otra funcion igual q el pvp power o para mi esta mucho mas duro el malevolo en pvp espero que se entienda lo que digo
hola a todos primero quiero decir que no se si este es el mejor lugar para debatir este tema y segundo a lo mejor de lo que diga siguiente mente pueda yo estar en un error o esta bien.
Es en cuanto a la comparacion de los set de malevolo con tiranico en cuanto al a resilence y pvp power me parece que el malevolo iene mucho mas que el tiranico en cuanto a comparacion y en cuanto a los otros esta el tiranico lo supera la pregunta es esta correcto eso pq me parece que lo que se quiere en pvp son esas das cosas principales todo lo demas es bueno digo pero sin resilence y pvp power es pve por favor quisiera que me rectifiquen si estoy equivocado o estoy bien y el selicence tiene otra funcion igual q el pvp power o para mi esta mucho mas duro el malevolo en pvp espero que se entienda lo que digo


I'm sorry, I don't know Spanish, but Ill do my best to answer via google translate. It seems like you are asking about Malevolent gear vs Tyrannical and wondering which is better. I agree with what Erdluf said above me that the Tyrannical gear is better despite having lower PVP stats. The significant increase in other stats on the Tyrannical gear more than makes up for the PVP stat disparity, and that was by design.

Or in google translate spanish:
"Lo siento, no sé español, pero Malos hacer mi mejor esfuerzo para responder a través de Google Translate. Parece que usted está planteando Malevolent engranaje vs tiránico y preguntándose cuál es mejor. Estoy de acuerdo con lo dicho anteriormente me Erdluf que el engranaje tiránico es mejor a pesar de tener menores estadísticas PVP. El aumento significativo en otras estadísticas sobre la marcha Tyrannical más que compensa por la disparidad PVP stat, y eso fue por diseño."
What's the point in obtaining PvP gear when resilience doesn't stand a chance against dungeon-geared players?
Let's compare PvE gear to PvP gear.

At 480 PvP gear, you've got stats that match 480 PvE gear, and you also have about 40% PvP power and about 2/3 resilience. At that point

PvP/PvE values are
    Effective Health: 180%
    rawDPS: 140%
    Offspec effective HPS: 198%
    Healer effective HPS: 216%
    TTL (no heals): 252% (duel, PvP vs. PvE, no heals)
    TTL (50% heals): 279% (duel, rotation where PvP moonkin has rawDPS=2*Heals)

We know that gear gains 15% stats every 15 iLevels (exponential growth). I estimate that 15% more stats on gear is worth about:
    10.8% more effective health (naked health is significant)
    18.9% more raw DPS (DPS scales very well with gear)
    16% more offspec HPS
    16.7% more mainspec HPS

We can combine those and determine when PvE gear catches up to lower level PvP gear:
    EH: 480 PvP = 558 PvE
    rawDPS: 480 PvP = 509 PvE
    oEHPS: 480 PvP = 542 PvE
    mEHPS: 480 PvP = 546 PvE
    TTL/TTL (no heals): 480 PvP = 528 PvE
    TTL/TTL (50% heals): 480 PvP = 533 PvE


So, unless the only thing you care about is Raw DPS (meaning nobody ever attacks you), 480 PvP gear is better than gear from normal 5.2 raids. Even for raw DPS it is better than LFR gear. When you are stunned and taking damage (and receiving no heals), 480 PvP gear is better than heroic thunderforged gear.

I made a lot of assumptions here that may not be right for your situation:
- My scaling numbers could be wrong for you.
- Your PvE gear may have set bonuses that are awesome for PvP
- Your PvE gear may have extra gem sockets, and/or you might put PvP gems into those sockets.
- Some slots will be relatively stronger for PvP or for PvE gear. Mixing and matching may be fruitful.
Well done. Very useful information.
What's the point in obtaining PvP gear when resilience doesn't stand a chance against dungeon-geared players?


Why make stuff up? Pvp gear > pve gear for pvp.

Also great guide as always, thanks for the hard work.
Thanks for the great guides.

With the new 5.2 Resilience changes, what gives more effective health for Prot characters Stamina or Resilience? Is there a threshold where one becomes more effective health than the other?

I remember seeing charts and guides for Resilience vs. Stamina gemming that you made, and it had Tauren Prot characters in mind. Is it possible to do something like that for the new changes? This time with all prot characters instead of just Tauren? Maybe just add Dwarves and Tauren as a bonus chart?
Could I see your math for calculating Effective HP please?
Thanks for the great guides.
Is there a threshold where one becomes more effective health than the other?


This. I too would greatly appreciate the answer to this, and if there is such a threshhold, at how much Resil/% would that be?
Thanks for the great guides.

With the new 5.2 Resilience changes, what gives more effective health for Prot characters Stamina or Resilience? Is there a threshold where one becomes more effective health than the other?

I remember seeing charts and guides for Resilience vs. Stamina gemming that you made, and it had Tauren Prot characters in mind. Is it possible to do something like that for the new changes? This time with all prot characters instead of just Tauren? Maybe just add Dwarves and Tauren as a bonus chart?


I had a chart like that in an earlier version of this guide for 5.0-5.1 which you can see here (http://www.battlemasters.org/graphs/mpsg9.png). I pulled it out because I didn't believe it added much value and it was a lot of work to update for 5.2. Pre 5.2 Resilience was better by an enormous margin, there was no reachable point at which stamina would become better. If you look up at the very top of the chart at around the 10k resil mark (which is the same now as pre-5.2) you can see that choosing a Resilience gem over a stamina gem would give you between 11k and 19k more effective health, depending on how much stamina you already had.

If I were to produce a similar graph now things would shift a little bit due to the recent formula change but I have no doubt Resilience would still be miles ahead for any realistic situation. I may produce another one in the future if the choice between them stops being so cut and dry, but right now it just wouldn't add much tangible value.

This. I too would greatly appreciate the answer to this, and if there is such a threshhold, at how much Resil/% would that be?


Because Resilience and Stamina have a synergistic relationship the breaking point changes based on how much of each you already have, that is why the graph I linked above is a contour map instead of a line.

Could I see your math for calculating Effective HP please?


That is actually quite simple, effective health as a percentage of your displayed health is calculated as follows:

EH = 100/(1-(dr/100)) with dr being the percentage of damage reduction you have. You can actually sub in your displayed health for that 100 and calculate your actual effective health too. Just keep in mind that this is just your EH from resilience, after factoring in talents and armor and such it is really higher.
What would be the TTL (no heals) for 496 pvp compared to pve? I assume it's higher than heroic pve (535)?
Seriously, I would like to just play the game. It is still a game, correct? An upgrade should be an upgrade, plain and simple. Why make new gear if it's not any better than the old for some people--actually worse? What are people actually working for then? Nothing--when there is no reward other than honor gear, how fun is that?

It's kind of a slap in the face to be in a battle ground or arena and see people with more survivability than you, and with more pvp power than you--and yet all they did to get their gear was get some honor....

Really, I don't want to have to break out the calculator to figure out what gear I need.
Thank you once again for sucking what fun is left in this game out of it, Blizzard.
GC tweeted that 496 pvp power will provide approximately 40% additional damage compared to 35% damage from offensive stats on a 522 set. That is only a 5% advantage for the best available pvp gear against just the normal raid gear. On the other hand, 535 pve set has around 30% more stamina than 496. This basically means that a player in T15 raid gear will beat a player in 496 pvp under equal circumstances. Against 535 gear, the matchup won't even be close.
For unholy either go stack strength and resil or pvp resil. Pvp power Does nothing in unholy since garg's damage is scaled with AP.

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