Did they break Prot?

Paladin
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I've been having issues with my prot pally after the patch as well. I don't really have a threat issue...at least not with single target. At some moments of aoe tanking I may lose a targets threat here and there...which isn't the norm. Keeping threat while aoe tanking was never a problem before but this seems to be the case now. This issue isn't just for pally tanks it also happens with my other tanks (I play all tank classes). It doesn't happen a lot mind you but it's noticeable to me since I don't like losing threat.

My main issue, which might be why threat generation isn't as great, is the lower dps I put out. Before the patch it was common for me to be overall top dps in 5 mans with a lot of aoe pulls. Single target dps was also higher than it is now after patch. So maybe this drop in damage is what's causing the lower threat generation...which is strange since I'v had to regem/reforge for hit and expertise softcaps, so I really don't miss/get dodged/parried as much as before. You'd think I'd be doing more damage now.
I've just returned from about a month haitus, because life just got too busy for awhile, and I've been finding prot a little frustrating. A month ago I was doing stellar, now, not so much. I mostly do LFG groups and 5 mans with friends because I'm a relatively casual player, and I understand that dps isn't just a tank's responsibility, BUT, when casual gameplay through systems like LFG is what you're into, you can't rely on others to keep their agro in check. An aoe taunt has been a pretty basic tanking utility for a long time, what replaces this?

Ex. I just ran an instance with a friend, we had a shammy in the group who was ghostwolfing into the centre of pulls way ahead of me. Heals were struggling to keep him alive, and I'm running in and aoe'ing like crazy, hoping it will solve the problem, as mobs run all over the shammy, all over the heals, and whoever swings at something I haven't tagged yet. I can toss HoS on that one person or the heals, but next pull when the same thing happens, HoS is still on cooldown. Everything sorts itself out, but it's frustrating having to struggle against these players when before I could just out-tank their stupidity. Taunting off of a specific friendly target was particularly good for this.

Is the solution kicking these sorts of players and hoping we can weed them out of the game? ;)
i don't do current heroic content. i do solo and old content and my paladin is broken now. i'm not "doing it wrong." it's not fun and it's gimped. 300+ days played on a paladin and i'm dumping it for my deathknight when mop releases. farewell old friend.


I look at it like this, these issues we are having are just separating the good tanks from the bad. HOPEFULLY, this will give people pause and reason to improve their play. Doubtful, but one can hope.


You have no idea how screwed up that statement is right there.

I have been playing wow for close to 4 years. I have two prot pallies because I loved playing the class so much. Honestly, calling me a bad tank, when one day I was doing exceptionally well, running HOTs on a daily basis and from titme to time Off-Tank raids, now I can barely hold agro off 82 lvl dps in a reg cat dungeon.

I realize that change is hard for many people to adapt to. I have done what I could to change. Helmsplitter on silver hand is my prot Pally. I have speced him correctly as per Eletist Jerks/Nonxx and other reliable tanking resource we have relied on for years. He is geared for mitigation in keeping with the new specs. I have worked on my new rotation for hours at the practice dummies...

And to hear condecending remarks like this....that some how people who have been playing their class for years and that guildies use time in and time out as work horses to get them through the grind for upper level gear with quick ques...have been bad tanks all along...

Well...here is my response to that....Gee thanks.


I look at it like this, these issues we are having are just separating the good tanks from the bad. HOPEFULLY, this will give people pause and reason to improve their play. Doubtful, but one can hope.


You have no idea how screwed up that statement is right there.

I have been playing wow for close to 4 years. I have two prot pallies because I loved playing the class so much. Honestly, calling me a bad tank, when one day I was doing exceptionally well, running HOTs on a daily basis and from titme to time Off-Tank raids, now I can barely hold agro off 82 lvl dps in a reg cat dungeon.

I realize that change is hard for many people to adapt to. I have done what I could to change. Helmsplitter on silver hand is my prot Pally. I have speced him correctly as per Eletist Jerks/Nonxx and other reliable tanking resource we have relied on for years. He is geared for mitigation in keeping with the new specs. I have worked on my new rotation for hours at the practice dummies...

And to hear condecending remarks like this....that some how people who have been playing their class for years and that guildies use time in and time out as work horses to get them through the grind for upper level gear with quick ques...have been bad tanks all along...

Well...here is my response to that....Gee thanks.
I dont know how things will work out at 90, so we'll have to sit tight on Prot vs Other Tanks for the next few weeks. But the issues I see people complaining about with Prot Paladins are actually more like issues with the Vengeance mechanic.
The Prot Pally is suppose to be able to withstand dmg and hold agro. That's their function. They may have a few bells and whistles but that is all secondary to the purpose and function of being a Prot Pally.

From 1 - 85 lvls doing 5 mans
If you base a system where agro is generated from being hit.....it creates two dilemmas.
1. On the pull, a Protection Paladin simply cannot generate agro fast enough. The idea is...the Paladin would go up and hit as many mobs as possible as quickly as possible to establish agro. Notice that this doesn't establish agro that counts because the dps is too low for Protection Paladins....because the agro that HOLDS a mob attention is not part of a system in which that Paladins must be hit for vengeance to go up so that their dps will go up and their agro will go up.

IF dps begins attacking mobs before sufficient time has passed to allow this to happen, they have no trouble pulling agro off the tank. Even Elitist Jerks admit that the most vulnerable time under the new system is the pull for tanks because of the way it is designed.

2. It was mentioned earlier in this thread...."the more tank-ish your build is, the less dps you can do". I find it ironic that we have moved to a system in which a class who is suppose to build their character to avoid/take damage, can only build vengeance/agro when they get hit. Which means the more you build your character to mitigate or avoid damage results in not being able to generate agro.

Hence you have people who are good tanks and that have been playing Prot Pallys for years and all of a sudden their characters who have been built for mitigating dmg can't hold agro for crap.

The other tanking classes like warriors, DKs and even our beloved hardcore bouncing bears aren't having nearly the problems as their skills have always been based on a style of dps with taunts. And I am sure the new Pandera Tanks will be similar.

As for the end game content i.e. raiding and such...the experts on here seem to have it all figured out so I will let them speak to that. But I will mention that in raids, it common practice for everyone to wait until the tank makes the pull and establishes agro fairly good before any dps is thrown at the mob...it doesn't work like this in 5 mans at all...and you all know it.
As for me, I'm not interested in playing the class much any more, because I built him to be a prot Pally, and now they have moved him to a system in which he must operate more like a dps tank. I have the utmost respect for the other tanking classes, but if I wanted to build a dps tank, I would have made a warrior, DK or Bear. Now it seems I have no choice but to accept it, and if I don't or I raise my voice in what I don't like about it, I'll just get dumped on, called a bad tank.

What they should have done is just give ret pallies a few good taunts and said there you go, now you are all the same. We are right back to wehre we were on WoLK when apllies were wearing dps gear and acting like ret pallies. And I remember at that time, there was such a backlash because people wanted to play Protection Pallys not some hybrid ret pally tanks. That is why they gave us the 300% vengeance so we COULD hold agro while doing little dps. Now that's gone and with it is a style of tanking I loved to play.

For those of you who like the change and are adapting to the new style....good for you. But in response to the OP's question did they break Prot Pally?

Yes....yes they did. Or to say it a different way, they removed Prot Pally style of tanking from the game altogether and replaced with a different type of tanking style that more resembles the other style classes of tanks.
If anything I would say prot is easier due to vengeance and the 500% threat generation increase. But, that still wont help everyone. If this is happening all the time maybe you are bursting too quickly at the beginning and can still pull threat... Or you're in defensive stance which would be REALLY bad.
09/16/2012 10:26 PMPosted by Dandaman
I dont know how things will work out at 90, so we'll have to sit tight on Prot vs Other Tanks for the next few weeks. But the issues I see people complaining about with Prot Paladins are actually more like issues with the Vengeance mechanic.


I think that is accurate. See my follow up post as I explain what I preceive is the issue with it, and why it truly effects what being a Prot tank is all about. It has always been a trade off. DPS tanks have always gotten high dps while prot pallies could never do that kind of dps if they set up their characters for avoidance and mitigation.

The idea was, there would be tanks that could do high DPS but not neccessarily take extreme uber dmg. On the other hand those tanks that could take uber dmg, would not be able to deal out dmg. This is what made the tank styles different and unique and why some people loved playing the different styles of tanks. But each style had its own way of holding agro. Not so for Prot Pallies anymore.

I think people are having a hard time puting words to a fustration they have that deals directly with what it means to be a prot pally under this new system. They simply didn't change the way prot pallies tank, they removed the ability for them to hold agro while doing low dps. The other tanking styles have ways to generate threat often through dps, prot pallies don't.

Here's an idea and maybe this will make my point of view clearer:

Why don't they put all dps under the same agro building system that Prot Pallies now have for building agro.

Their initial attacks would be extremely wimpy and only do a quarter of the dmg they are use to doing. Sort of like the quarter agro ability they have given to prot pallies on the initial pull now. Then over the next 3 atks, dps'ers dmg would build to full power. By that time maybe the tank will have taken enough damage to generate enough vengence/agro to hold them without a problem.

Honestly, hilarity ensues ^^ :)

I think the real question is, does Prot Pally style tanking even exist in the game any more or are they now going to be Prot Pallies in name only but function more like a dps style tank?

For me, its time to move on...play some other classes for a while.
Keeping threat while aoe tanking was never a problem before but this seems to be the case now. This issue isn't just for pally tanks it also happens with my other tanks (I play all tank classes). It doesn't happen a lot mind you but it's noticeable to me since I don't like losing threat.


What is your AoE rotation? Similarly what is your single target rotation?

My main issue, which might be why threat generation isn't as great, is the lower dps I put out. Before the patch it was common for me to be overall top dps in 5 mans with a lot of aoe pulls. Single target dps was also higher than it is now after patch. So maybe this drop in damage is what's causing the lower threat generation...which is strange since I'v had to regem/reforge for hit and expertise softcaps, so I really don't miss/get dodged/parried as much as before. You'd think I'd be doing more damage now.


Vengeance is calculated PER-migitation. Dodging or parrying has no effect on it. So if your doing content with mobs who dont hit hard (old heroics) your damage will be lower. Your damage should be higher doing HoT or zuls as those mobs hit significantly harder.

09/16/2012 05:35 PMPosted by Ashesnbones
I mostly do LFG groups and 5 mans with friends because I'm a relatively casual player, and I understand that dps isn't just a tank's responsibility, BUT, when casual gameplay through systems like LFG is what you're into, you can't rely on others to keep their agro in check. An aoe taunt has been a pretty basic tanking utility for a long time, what replaces this?


First thing you need to do is get hit and expertise capped. This is now very important for tanks. For heroic 5mans the cap is 6% for both hit and expertise.

Secondly, You might want to look into gemming for str then. Str is now a better avoidance stat (at lvl 85 only) than parry. Not only would it up your damage but you would take less damage from AoE pulls as well.

You are specced into Sanctified wrath so what is your rotation normally and when SW up? You should be prioritizing J over CS when avenging wrath is up.

09/16/2012 05:35 PMPosted by Ashesnbones
Is the solution kicking these sorts of players and hoping we can weed them out of the game? ;)


Yep!

09/16/2012 08:52 PMPosted by Iie
i don't do current heroic content. i do solo and old content and my paladin is broken now.


Only heroic content i do is H Morchok. I have no issue soloing things. What is giving you issues soloing?

09/16/2012 08:52 PMPosted by Iie
it's not fun and it's gimped. 300+ days played on a paladin and i'm dumping it for my deathknight when mop releases. farewell old friend.


How is it not fun/gimp? In what way am i gimp? I can solo effectively. I can do quests. Also i see that your paladin notforbiting has 1.13% hit and 1.84% expertise. This is probably your issue. If your not raiding you should get those both up to 6%.

As with the others what is your rotation? Both Single target and AoE?

09/16/2012 10:03 PMPosted by Itsallasham
I have been playing wow for close to 4 years. I have two prot pallies because I loved playing the class so much. Honestly, calling me a bad tank, when one day I was doing exceptionally well, running HOTs on a daily basis and from titme to time Off-Tank raids, now I can barely hold agro off 82 lvl dps in a reg cat dungeon.


Once again what is your rotation? Your gear looks fine so that cant be it. All you need to do is 10k dps to hold off on 50k damage dealers. Are you using AW on the pull? Are you letting the dps know not to attack till you have aggro?

Im noticing alot of you have SW. I have HA and it works great. Maybe SW is bugged?

09/16/2012 11:17 PMPosted by Itsallasham
IF dps begins attacking mobs before sufficient time has passed to allow this to happen, they have no trouble pulling agro off the tank. Even Elitist Jerks admit that the most vulnerable time under the new system is the pull for tanks because of the way it is designed.


Its been that way for all of cata too.

09/16/2012 11:17 PMPosted by Itsallasham
2. It was mentioned earlier in this thread...."the more tank-ish your build is, the less dps you can do". I find it ironic that we have moved to a system in which a class who is suppose to build their character to avoid/take damage, can only build vengeance/agro when they get hit. Which means the more you build your character to mitigate or avoid damage results in not being able to generate agro.


Um no. Read the vengeance tooltip. Its based on PRE-mitigation values. It has nothing to do with your gear, and everything to do with the content you run.

09/16/2012 11:17 PMPosted by Itsallasham
Hence you have people who are good tanks and that have been playing Prot Pallys for years and all of a sudden their characters who have been built for mitigating dmg can't hold agro for crap.


Im having no issues.

As for the end game content i.e. raiding and such...the experts on here seem to have it all figured out so I will let them speak to that. But I will mention that in raids, it common practice for everyone to wait until the tank makes the pull and establishes agro fairly good before any dps is thrown at the mob...it doesn't work like this in 5 mans at all...and you all know it.


I have done over 1500 heroic 5mans. I know how it works and its fine. Ill run a heroic in a sec and link pics if you want. And yes even in 5mans they should wait. Its always been that way and just because you get some REALLY stupid dps does not mean things have changed.

09/16/2012 11:17 PMPosted by Itsallasham
moved him to a system in which he must operate more like a dps tank


I dont get what you mean here. DPS tank? How so?

09/16/2012 11:17 PMPosted by Itsallasham
We are right back to wehre we were on WoLK when apllies were wearing dps gear and acting like ret pallies


We did that to shame the dps =D

I could have tanked in tank gear but it would not have been as fun.

09/17/2012 12:22 AMPosted by Itsallasham
DPS tanks have always gotten high dps while prot pallies could never do that kind of dps if they set up their characters for avoidance and mitigation.


And now the playing field is even. Druids can't go kitty and do dps style damage anymore and we all are doing similar damage.

09/17/2012 12:22 AMPosted by Itsallasham
The idea was, there would be tanks that could do high DPS but not neccessarily take extreme uber dmg. On the other hand those tanks that could take uber dmg, would not be able to deal out dmg.


Its never been this way. In fact bears could take more damage AND do more damage. DKs were gimp till DS when they buffed them and gave more encounters favoring their anti-magic abilities. Warriors and paladins have been neck and neck the whole expansion.

Our main advantages were utility (divine guardain) and that we weren't as spikey.

09/17/2012 12:22 AMPosted by Itsallasham
They simply didn't change the way prot pallies tank, they removed the ability for them to hold agro while doing low dps. The other tanking styles have ways to generate threat often through dps, prot pallies don't.


What is your rotation? Cause im not having these issues
09/17/2012 12:07 AMPosted by Form
If anything I would say prot is easier due to vengeance and the 500% threat generation increase. But, that still wont help everyone. If this is happening all the time maybe you are bursting too quickly at the beginning and can still pull threat... Or you're in defensive stance which would be REALLY bad.


Prot paladins don't have stances.
Okay Hour of Twilight 5man pics:

HoT first boss-35k dps:
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac144/lostlink247365/Proof/HoTfirstboss.png
HoT 2nd boss-18k dps
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac144/lostlink247365/Proof/HoTsecondboss.png
HoT 3rd boss-19.7k would have been high had dk not used army
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac144/lostlink247365/Proof/HoTthirdboss.png

AoE? NP and no cooldowns!

32k dps
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac144/lostlink247365/Proof/HoTtrash.png
30k dps
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac144/lostlink247365/Proof/HoTtrash2.png

In the gear im wearing now. In a 5man.

minimal dps needed to out threat me? 100k!
Once more i ask you?

What is your hit/exp at and what is your rotation?
09/17/2012 12:57 AMPosted by Itsallasham
Prot paladins don't have stances.


LOL, I was referring to the OP. Gotta look back a little bit before correcting.
Once more i ask you?

What is your hit/exp at and what is your rotation?


Seal used for single target. Seal of Truth.

I lost the lengthy reply to your earlier....so here is the cliff notes and answers to your question.

ST: CS – J - AS – CS – L90 – J – CS – Cons - HW (and so on)

Where L90 is I have been using SofR to apply weakend blows but only like every 3rd rotation or so.

Using this on 85 mechanical dummy in SW a whooping 5200 dps and I really gass the raid boss dummy some punish with a cool 3200 dps and that is with a Flask of titanic Strngth popped.

Hit is 7.52
Exp is 8.21

Ideal parry to dodge ration is 3.597 mine is currently at 3.525

Here is the macro from Theick: /run ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("Ideal pre-dr parry/dodge ratio: 3.597, yours is %.3f%%, if too high reforge more parry to dodge",(GetParryChance()-3.67)/(GetDodgeChance()-5.01)))

Armor = 37.06
Dodge = 11.46
Parry = 26.40
Block = 30.43
Mastery 17.47

----------------------------Dev notes on threat for 4.3------------------ Notice ending...

So now what?

Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we've gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in 4.3 to where it's generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don't need them.

It's an important distinction that the concept of "aggro" will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature's attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we'll have to make further adjustments.)

We like abilities like Misdirect. It's fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don't like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank's threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.

Upcoming changes

Here are the specific changes you're likely to see on the PTR for the next major content patch, 4.3:

■ The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.
Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.

Can find the whole dev notes on threat here:
http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/08/16/dev-watercooler-ghostcrawler-discusses-massive-changes-to-threa/

Also as to my comments about making Pallies more like DPS tanks, if you go to web page and read towars the end you will see that in their thinking they wanted to emulate a playing style for tanking more like the DK model....hence my comments

Edited to add: yes, this dev's comments are older...like out of date, but its important to read and understand why they change this. Why Vengeance no longer ramped up slowly at the beginning of a fight...and now that this is no longer the case, it makes it clear what the problem is. Vengence ramps up slowly, hence all the things he makes mention of are totaly now mute or opposite. So now threat DOES become a big issue because when they change vengence to no longer ramp up slowly at the beginning it was suppose to do away with this type of thinking and problems for the game play and dynamic.
Initially I was having issues much the same as everyone else. Being epic gemmed and reforged to old mitigation system of tanking in Cata. This is my alt and was main tank for my guild's 5th raiding group. Holding threat had never been an issue until the patch. Initially i had things running all over the place no matter how much i threw down Cons, HotR, or HW. They all hit like wet noodles now (yes i know they buffed Cons but still feels weak).

So dove into the blogs and forums and bumped up my hit/exp, added Cons to a closer hotkey, started rocking some strength dps trinkets with my dodge trinkets (in place of my stam ones). Things got better from threat point of view. Also started playing around with the WoG glyph and use it like a poor man's Inquisition...buffing my AOE initial pulls by 9% dmg when i can come into the next pull with 3 or more HP.

I dont know for sure if people are really having trouble with aggro because of the "potential" of the class/spec. Moreso, they struggle with the change to how they NEED to play it. Most people probably felt they had a good handle on things before the patch or liked how it played and myself i liked the idea of being "not squishy" and built my tank to take tons of damage and a utility for heals and protecting my raid. So it is with a bit of a heavy heart i feel i need to change.

So when i say its not as fun, its a personal preference. I don't want my tank to take damage...period. With vengence now it just has to be that way. Adapt and overcome is all we can do.

That said I do wish some of our abilites were buffed a bit....looking at the baseline damage of our abilities to say a warrior's....seems like ours do roughly a third to half. Our finishing move is laughable compared to how hard execute is hitting right now.

My friend has a warrior and put together a 389 tank set over cata, as he had a pve arms and pvp arms specs. Tried tanking and had no issues with threat and as i was healing him on my Priest saw that he seemed to barely take any damage either.

I was confused and semi annoyed at this to be honest. When we started comparing abilities i decided it was time my warrior stopped being my bank alt and was time to level him. Warriors, by the looks of it, play much more like paladins used to play. I just feel that paladins play more like DKs almost with active mitigation. SotR and DS seem alike to me.
ST: CS – J - AS – CS – L90 – J – CS – Cons - HW (and so on)

Where L90 is I have been using SofR to apply weakend blows but only like every 3rd rotation or so.

Using this on 85 mechanical dummy in SW a whooping 5200 dps and I really gass the raid boss dummy some punish with a cool 3200 dps and that is with a Flask of titanic Strngth popped.


I do around 9k on those dummies. No flasks or anything like that. Where is SotR? Im Assuming SofR is hammer of the righteous. Are you taking advantage of SotR being off the GCD by using it along side your other abilities?

Generally single target

Keeping up WB>Keeping up SS>SotR>C>J>AS>Lvl90>HoWrath>Cons>HW

But for 5man content you can ignore WB and SS. Are you using Avenging wrath? Your specced into SW so are you prioritizing J above CS during its duration? If you get a GrC proc are you prioritizing it over cons/HW/HoW? Or are you using that rotation sticking to that exact rotation rigidly?

Something is up. There should not be a 3k difference in our damage.

This is your pally right?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/silver-hand/Helmsplitter/advanced

Lets try something cause im seeing a trend. Alot of you who are having issues are specced into SW. Try speccing into Holy Avenger. Use it in combo with AW.

Also please tell me your AOE rotation. As it sounds as that is the place giving you the most issues.

09/17/2012 02:45 AMPosted by Itsallasham
Also as to my comments about making Pallies more like DPS tanks, if you go to web page and read towars the end you will see that in their thinking they wanted to emulate a playing style for tanking more like the DK model....hence my comments


Im familar with what they said. But that had nothing to do with threat and more the active mitigation model where we are responsible for our own survival. This is were weakened blows and Bastion of glory and the SotR BUFF all come into play. It does not have much to do with damage.

In fact they made the changes you bring up a while back and we were working under 500% threat and no need for a threat meeter for all of 4.3 and DS. IIRC they actually made that change during FLs in fact.

For AoE try favoring Cons/AS/HW more and your Holy power generators less. Mainly use HotR for the debuff or when everything else is on cd.
Its getting late and im calling it a night but there is something going wrong with your rotation Helmsplitter. Our gear difference is not high enough for me to do 50% more damage than you with no flasks used.
09/17/2012 03:06 AMPosted by Celyndrashad
I do around 9k on those dummies. No flasks or anything like that. Where is SotR? Im Assuming SofR is hammer of the righteous. Are you taking advantage of SotR being off the GCD by using it along side your other abilities?


Yep that is my pally.

I'm sorry, yes I am using SofR in the L90 slot and every thrid rotation using HofR to apply weakend blows

So on the pull it would put J AS as I run in and first physical atk I would use HofR then then I would start into normal rotation of CS J AS SofR CS J AS Con CS J AS SofR CS J AS Con

I did more on conc throwing that in more often when I noticed it off CD and got 5500dps on the 85 mechanical dummy, but still a far cry from what your talking about...

I think I am going to try spec into HA and see if I can see a difference. But its gonna have to wait till tomorrow cuase work in morning got to get a nap before I get up...

And thanks for your time regardless of whether I figure this out...I wonder even if I do if I will still like playing it this way...jury is still out on it though but the fat lady is warming up....:)
09/17/2012 03:51 AMPosted by Itsallasham
I think I am going to try spec into HA and see if I can see a difference. But its gonna have to wait till tomorrow cuase work in morning got to get a nap before I get up...


I would like you to try one more thing for me if you will tomorrow.

There is an addon from Curse called CLCprot. Put in my single target rotation suggestion and try it out. If you see my pics you can see that i also have aura buttons for AW/HA/Cons/and AS.

See if that helps.
The more I look into this, the problem is with how vengeance works now. The people who have no problem (or person?) is playing end level content that hits them like a freight train using end level gear. At my level I might end up in a random that is 2 levels under me (where the mobs don't hit that hard) with someone who is 2 levels over me in full BOA gear. All my attacks hit like wet noodle now unless I get beat on, which makes avoidance a bad thing.

In the past healers would say I was easy to heal and while my dps wasn't crazy, I always held agro. I was a tank. Now I need to drop dodge and parry, get into DPS gear and take more damage to hope this mechanic will ramp up fast enough into the aoe pull to not have stuff pulled off me left and right. Oh and my main aoe dmg spell at this level does dmg over time and one/two ticks isn't enough to get a agro lead.

It does seem wrong that the damage and agro we generate is based so heavily on this one mechanic that it becomes that need to take dmg so we can generate this to be effective. Like someone else said, throw a spell or two to ret and call it a day if that is where they wanted this.

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