To all future Pandaren RPers...

Wyrmrest Accord
Taken straight from Wowpedia:

Path of the Tushui
"Discipline is not a war that is won. It is a battle, constantly fought." - Master Feng


Tushui is one of the two primary philosophies among the pandaren of the Wandering Isle, and encourages living a venerable life through meditation, rigorous training, and moral conviction. Those pandaren who uphold the tenets of Tushui are drawn to the Alliance due to their similar philosophies, and are represented by Aysa Cloudsinger.

The way of the Tushui is one of a principled life. Followers of this discipline believe there is a moral certainty to the world: one correct path of right and wrong. These Values are immutable, and must be preserved no matter what the cost. Even if it means self sacrifice, or painful losses in the pursuit of a higher ideal.

Path of the Huojin
"Always challenge. Always question. In the pursuit of a greater good, inaction is the only wrong."
- Master Zurong


Huojin is a philosophy among the pandaren that inaction is the greatest injustice, and that there is no shame in defending one's homes and loved ones regardless of cost. Those pandaren who follow the path of Huojin are allies of the Horde, and are represented by Ji Firepaw, a staunch adherent of this philosophy.

The Path of the Huojin is marked by practical and decisive action. Followers of this discipline believe that morals and ideals are not absolute, but change with circumstances. As such, a Huojin Master must remain flexible in his or her thinking, always evaluating the greater good.

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Please, when creating and roleplaying your Pandaren, do not get these two philosophies mixed up. Its bad enough that we have High Elves in Silvermoon. Thank you.
I plan on making my monk a little more...interesting. Hopefully not the bad kind of interesting though.
I'm flashing back to Jade Empire with its Open Palm/Closed Fist binary here. Hopefully this doesn't go down the same road.
09/08/2012 11:37 AMPosted by Jirargh
I'm flashing back to Jade Empire with its Open Palm/Closed Fist binary here. Hopefully this doesn't go down the same road.


Q.Q I loved that game...

/nostalgicswoon
It's feasible to be a member of the Alliance and not follow the Tushui, or a member of the Horde and not be Houjin.

Drawn to does not mean must be.
I have that game. Never played it though since I didn't know you needed a Microsoft external hard-drive to do so since it has the emulation software.
It's feasible to be a member of the Alliance and not follow the Tushui, or a member of the Horde and not be Houjin.

Drawn to does not mean must be.


What I'm talking about are Pandaren, who believe in one philosophy, but end up joining a faction that is it's complete opposite. That's my major concern. If you want to play a Tushui Panda, roll Alliance. If you want to play a Houjin Panda, roll Horde. It's the same as people wanting to play High Elves in Silvermoon, even though their kind are hostile to the Horde.

For non-Pandaren, it's possible, however their training will most likely be heavily influenced by either Tushui or Houjin beliefs, depending on their faction.
09/08/2012 11:37 AMPosted by Jirargh
I'm flashing back to Jade Empire with its Open Palm/Closed Fist binary here. Hopefully this doesn't go down the same road.


It's a fun game mechanically; my concern is that it tried to present the two philosophies as being equal, with flaws in each, but in practice Closed Fist was pretty unabashedly evil and Open Palm unabashedly good. WoW doing the same thing would make me sad.
It's feasible to be a member of the Alliance and not follow the Tushui, or a member of the Horde and not be Houjin.

Drawn to does not mean must be.


What I'm talking about are Pandaren, who believe in one philosophy, but end up joining a faction that is it's complete opposite. That's my major concern. If you want to play a Tushui Panda, roll Alliance. If you want to play a Houjin Panda, roll Horde. It's the same as people wanting to play High Elves in Silvermoon, even though their kind are hostile to the Horde.

For non-Pandaren, it's possible, however their training will most likely be heavily influenced by either Tushui or Houjin beliefs, depending on their faction.


I'm talking about the same thing. Sure, in some cases, one would go with the philosophy that they match up with. But if your Pandaren's mission isn't to aid the Alliance or Horde, but to discover a way to make the two achieve some sort of balance? It would make more sense for a Houjin to go visit the Alliance, and for the Tushui to join the Horde.
09/08/2012 12:16 PMPosted by Jirargh
I'm flashing back to Jade Empire with its Open Palm/Closed Fist binary here. Hopefully this doesn't go down the same road.


It's a fun game mechanically; my concern is that it tried to present the two philosophies as being equal, with flaws in each, but in practice Closed Fist was pretty unabashedly evil and Open Palm unabashedly good. WoW doing the same thing would make me sad.


I doubt it.

Regardless of what crappy storyline Blizzard decides to ram down our throats and call it lore, Horde and Alliance are both equal. Yeah, Horde has Garrosh and he's doing evil things, but the majority of wow's player base (as well as the game's own lore characters) are openly against his actions. In the end, Garrosh will be pacified and the Horde will return to it's stale mediocrity it was before Thrall ran off to play savior.
But if your Pandaren's mission isn't to aid the Alliance or Horde, but to discover a way to make the two achieve some sort of balance? It would make more sense for a Houjin to go visit the Alliance, and for the Tushui to join the Horde.


I am, personally, uncertain this would be correct. Someone drawn to the tenets of the Huojin, but wanting to bring balance to the Horde and Alliance isn't going to side on the Alliance; he's going to side as a neutral party, attempting to get the two sides to act in a just, but decisive manner. Their thoughts and morals have to shift constantly as the world evolves around them (which is awesome to me; I know exactly which discipline my Pandaren will follow) and he continually re-evaluates both sides.

A Tushui unlikely to do the same thing; they'd instead attempt to encourage peace talks between the two to preserve a kind of balance. But because they believe so strongly in the concept of Good vs. Evil, and they have their own definition of what IS good, and what is evil, they're not likely to be a neutral party between both sides. They'll either side with the Horde and despise the Alliance, side with the Alliance and hate all that is Horde, or side with neither, and hate both equally (for they would see that neither is good, rather both are evil).
09/08/2012 12:36 PMPosted by Relothus
But if your Pandaren's mission isn't to aid the Alliance or Horde, but to discover a way to make the two achieve some sort of balance? It would make more sense for a Houjin to go visit the Alliance, and for the Tushui to join the Horde.


I am, personally, uncertain this would be correct. Someone drawn to the tenets of the Huojin, but wanting to bring balance to the Horde and Alliance isn't going to side on the Alliance; he's going to side as a neutral party, attempting to get the two sides to act in a just, but decisive manner. Their thoughts and morals have to shift constantly as the world evolves around them (which is awesome to me; I know exactly which discipline my Pandaren will follow) and he continually re-evaluates both sides.

A Tushui unlikely to do the same thing; they'd instead attempt to encourage peace talks between the two to preserve a kind of balance. But because they believe so strongly in the concept of Good vs. Evil, and they have their own definition of what IS good, and what is evil, they're not likely to be a neutral party between both sides. They'll either side with the Horde and despise the Alliance, side with the Alliance and hate all that is Horde, or side with neither, and hate both equally (for they would see that neither is good, rather both are evil).


This brings into question: Why side with any side at all? They're both unbalanced and neither fits perfectly with the philosophies so much that they effectively have to join.
This brings into question: Why side with any side at all? They're both unbalanced and neither fits perfectly with the philosophies so much that they effectively have to join.


Depends on the personal motivations, morals, and disciplines of each individual Pandaren as they're given the opportunity to join a side. I'm sure they also, lore-wise, have the option to remain on the island, but they're also described as having a nearly insatiable wanderlust. And right now, it's probably best to be on at least ONE side of the war.

Have you seen what we do to neutral mobs?
09/08/2012 12:50 PMPosted by Relothus
This brings into question: Why side with any side at all? They're both unbalanced and neither fits perfectly with the philosophies so much that they effectively have to join.


Depends on the personal motivations, morals, and disciplines of each individual Pandaren as they're given the opportunity to join a side. I'm sure they also, lore-wise, have the option to remain on the island, but they're also described as having a nearly insatiable wanderlust. And right now, it's probably best to be on at least ONE side of the war.

Have you seen what we do to neutral mobs?


Mobs? Yes. I've also seen what we do with neutral NPCs.

All I'm saying is that you need more than "I'm Tushui" as motivation to go Alliance. Or Houjin for Horde. Just being a member of one of the schools isn't enough for me.
@ OP

No.

You apparently don't understand the nature of people, because if you did, you'd realize that in spite of cultural backgrounds, there are always exceptions to every rule. Just because it's not likely that a pandarin who spent much of his/her life walking the path of the Tushui would join the horde, doesn't mean it's impossible.

I'm not even going to get into how utterly ridiculous the idea of such a race siding with either the alliance or horde is, but I had to say something here...
I really just dislike, on principle, generalizing races or factions as "This race/faction always believes this and must be -this- way and behave like -this." It's very limiting and really, makes little sense from a psychological stand point, because of that "individuality" thing sentient beings have.

You can have a rich person grow up with all the schooling, training and privileges ever and still, they might give it all up for a simple life in the country. You may have a person who has trained for war their whole life...at the moment of pulling the trigger...realize they can't do it. You can have an orc drawn to more peaceful methods or a Tauren who is a raging, violent trouble maker that doesn't care or didn't learn a thing from her elders.

I'm playing a rather neutral and mellow Forsaken who doesn't particularly want vengeance or destruction. While he understands Sylvanas' drive to protect "her" Forsaken, the methods she sometimes uses make him shake his head. He understands the need to fortify the Horde against threats, but Garrosh's "total war" approach is, likewise, making him facepalm a little, because he sees these things as being long-term bad for the Horde's survival. He doesn't go around plotting how to poison or plague people, and while he has some PTSD (who wouldn't after dying and then being brought back as a rotting corpse with free-will?), he's not bitter or hateful. His best friend is an orc.

There are lots of reasons why one Pandaren might choose Horde over Alliance (or vice versa) even if their schools of philosophy would generally suggest otherwise. Individuality :) RP would be so. damned. boring without it. If Blizzard is giving us the choice in game, then...lame by some people's opinions or not... it's still canon and still viable, and people shouldn't be shunned or shamed for making that choice.
@ OP

No.

You apparently don't understand the nature of people, because if you did, you'd realize that in spite of cultural backgrounds, there are always exceptions to every rule. Just because it's not likely that a pandarin who spent much of his/her life walking the path of the Tushui would join the horde, doesn't mean it's impossible.

I'm not even going to get into how utterly ridiculous the idea of such a race siding with either the alliance or horde is, but I had to say something here...


There are indeed exceptions. Sadly, though, the rule amongst RPers is to make the exceptions to the rule. At which point, which is the rule and which is the exception?
It's a belief, not a racial identity. That's like telling vegetarians they must never enter a Burger King ever.
@ OP

No.

You apparently don't understand the nature of people, because if you did, you'd realize that in spite of cultural backgrounds, there are always exceptions to every rule. Just because it's not likely that a pandarin who spent much of his/her life walking the path of the Tushui would join the horde, doesn't mean it's impossible.

I'm not even going to get into how utterly ridiculous the idea of such a race siding with either the alliance or horde is, but I had to say something here...


There are indeed exceptions. Sadly, though, the rule amongst RPers is to make the exceptions to the rule. At which point, which is the rule and which is the exception?


Eeeeh... I don't see this as a huge issue on WRA in my admittedly limited experience. There are quite a few orc military guilds, Sin'dorei "house" and noble guilds, Forsaken pro-Sylvanas guilds, Tauren tribe guilds, etc. (I know less about the Alliance side).. there seems to be quite a bit of "by the book" type of RPers here. And if a few people roll a Pandaren that isn't quite traditional, it's not going to break the server or anything. Just my opinion.
Rolling something that is perfectly traditional is all well and good, but personally I find more fun in pushing the limits while trying to make it mesh.

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