Blood Threat....

Death Knight
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I was curious if anyone is also having the issues of holding threat on most fights. During some trial runs in DS after patch I was/am having huge issues grabbing inital threat even after people hold off dps and also holding threat, like tanking almagamations I would tank it and once it gets to the point of low HP I would slow down and just use Rune Strike and taunt, I still lost aggro. Another guildy who has tanked longer than I have is also having issues with grabbing and holding aggro and he is way better geared than I am, I am also seeign that rune strike no longer causes high aggro. Any ideas? I am using all CDs and abilities, diseases, DnD and taunts/grips to keep/get aggro and sometimes still lose it. And yes my blood presence is on :).
You won't see "high threat" on abilities anymore. It's not how things work. The 500% threat from the presence is still there though. If you're having aggro issues there can be more to it. For example what you use to open up the fight. Your frequency of ability usage. Do you have pets that have their threat building abilities randomly sapping and pull threat off you. Are you not getting vengeance stacks? The list goes on. One thing that can happen in some groups is the 2nd tank constantly taunting off the other tank. Since so many of the fights are 1 tank'able it can have the newer off tank feel they need to tank and taunting off the other tank. So what starts to happen is really the overall threat can drop with the vengeance template.

As you take damage you gain vengeance. It grows and grows up to large numbers. But if you have say another tank pulling off you enough that you lose your vengeance stack? If you have a pet pull aggro which does less threat and then have to taunt to even get it back? You've actually now overall lowered the threat generation on the mob.

Why you'd lose aggro on the amalg later on? That one would show just a decline in your threat overall. I've not lost the threat on it when collecting bloods since patch. I do wager the tanks that would have less issues with threat should be a Bear or a DK though since our overall dps while tanking is much higher.

p.s.

It is a sad state of DS though if I can survive 2 impales per platform without even proc'ing purgatory.
Are you capped for exp/hit? That's a noticeable hit to agro generation.

Equally geared dps will pull a decent amount of agro off you if you aren't watching.
What are you losing it to, though?

Perhaps a pet class that forgot to turn off their pet taunt?

/ponder

I have yet to see any issues with threat unless it involves DnD being the only thing going at the time.
09/20/2012 04:03 PMPosted by Malmström
What are you losing it to, though?


He said he lost threat on amalg when he slowed down on it at low HP. I haven't had any threat issues on single target. Every time I lose threat it's an AoE scenario and DPS were nuking my offtargets and not assisting.

09/20/2012 02:36 PMPosted by Seraphion
I'm nowhere close to either cap and haven't had any threat issues. O.o


I used to have everything in mastery/avoidance and nothing in hit/exp on this particular alt. If you pull and then miss a few abilities you can definitely lose aggro. Once you have been smacking whatever you just picked up for about 10 seconds it's a different story ... your threat lead can tolerate a few misses by then.
I find it's the inverse for me I have such high threat that 90% of the time on fights where tank swapping is required I have actually completely stop DPS but the other tank is able to continue when I taunt without any problem as my threat leaves them for dead. It's not a small difference either 2K+ TPS than most of the other tanks I have tried the only other tank that kept up with me was another DK
Outbreak as you run --> BB depending on # mobs and your AP.
Used to open with D&D, they nerfed the threat gen on it and possibly the damage. I don't know, I don't even use D&D anymore unless it's free. Yet another 'almost' useless spell unless there's something I'm missing?

Low damage, low threat. The glyph is gone, the talent is gone. I used to love it. Now it feels like a "Use this spell if you want to feel bad" button.
Every time I mention how DPS can pull AoE threat off my by not assisting ... someone explains our AoE threat rotation lol
Tab target, watch Omen, stop when you see a high number?
Do you want your dps to die, and teach them a lesson in following the tank's target... Or do you want to finish the encounter...

I think you're expected to hold aoe threat regardless of who is attacking what, and if you tell them "You're supposed to attack my target" it makes you look weak. And I think that's true. That notion went out the window like 2 expacs ago, not counting marked mobs.

Although if they are about to pull aggro then they need to be smart enough to stop.

So really it's everybody's fault. You should be 'nice' enough to hit targets you're about to lose, and they should be 'smart' enough to not dps past aggro. Oh well.
09/20/2012 08:21 PMPosted by Bbqsauce
I think you're expected to hold aoe threat regardless of who is attacking what, and if you tell them "You're supposed to attack my target" it makes you look weak. And I think that's true.


That might make sense if there were no such thing as target priority. Except there almost always is a target that makes sense to eliminate before another. I don't really care if random 5 man DPS shoot the wrong thing ... I can just change target no big deal. It's NOT weakness to explain target priorities. It's NOT weakness to ask DPS to assist. Expecting randoms to assist is probably too much, but asking isn't.

Also how smart is it to change targets like a wildman while possibly an entire raid uses you as the main assist? If you are in my raid and you nuke the wrong targets you will hear about it and your response won't be "DO BETTER THREAT YOU ARE WEAK FOR ASKING ME TO ASSIST".

A good example would be people nuking Guards when Cauterizers are up in T12 Shannox trash. Why the !@#$ would you let someone get away with that? Random 5 mans are admittedly a completely different atmosphere.

09/20/2012 08:21 PMPosted by Bbqsauce
You should be 'nice' enough to hit targets you're about to lose, and they should be 'smart' enough to not dps past aggro. Oh well.


Totally agree with this. I won't let the mob get away from me when I see that I am losing threat, but if you assist you won't even need Omen as DPS
You Outbreaking before you're in melee range is not necessarily a smart move. It's like pulling with outbreak where it doesn't even give you threat and then wonder why say if a Destru lock opens with a Choas Bolt and pulls the main mob off you because you actually didn't open with a damage spell instead. Pulling with outbreak as your opener is about equal to opening with Dark Command which only really starts the fight but even a healer would pull before you're in melee range. You're almost better off doing a DND, Then a Blood Boil. Then out break. Then Blood Boil again. The first two function as insurance that the mobs are on you and not turning to another player. Really you wouldn't even have to outbreak yet.

Look at a 3 pack with a specific kill target? You have a couple options.

Open with DnD
There is the window of just outside melee range so Blood Boil so they turn to you.
Now it's aggro time.
Death Strike if you want a shield and some aggro to keep the main target on you then Outbreak to apply diseases.
Since it's a 3 pack the only reason you'd use blood boil over heart strike is if you may not be able to melee or to avoid having to pestilence to send diseases.

If you're really having aggro problems on the pull? One other option with some mobs is to icy touch and then death grip to at least get the mob to focus on you for 5 seconds while you also keep building threat. Though you shouldn't rely on tools like Death Grip and Dark Command. You should be able to hold threat without them.
Your group sees dnd, they start attacking.
Outbreak is invisible so as far as your group is concerned, you haven't even started attacking yet. Even if they start attacking, your immediate bb will snap the aggro and also spread your diseases.

If it comes down to dnd --> bb, or ob --> bb, I'm taking the outbreak everytime because I know it's just as useful for initial aggro as dnd is (read; not useful). Plus it saves you from 'wasting' an unholy rune.

If you open with dnd you will lose aggro to anyone on their first attack. Every pull. Yeah it only lasts 1 for gcd (god willing) and usually 1 mob.

And by the way, there appears to be a bug with initial aggro, at least for dnd, where mobs are ignoring it. I've thrown dnd directly under the feet of mobs and watched them ignore the damage (threat) and run straight after somebody else.

It's just sloppy.
If you open with outbreak I will pull off you with my first crit as a dps. I dunno about your dps you are against but a 40-60k hit is going to yank off you if you wasted your first global with a outbreak. My first Howling Blast alone could have the main tank mob turning to me instead of you. But if your experience is primarily 5mans that is one thing. But when you get a caster alone that hits for 100k with a single spell? You'll probably blame them for not assisting on you when they did.

p.s.

I love it to when tanks blame me for pulling aggro off them even when I've waited 3-4 seconds just because they don't know what they are doing or use sub-optimal threat building tools. Love paladins blaming me if I get aggro with just a single spell or even just my first frost strike.
09/20/2012 10:08 PMPosted by Tor
If you open with outbreak I will pull off you with my first crit as a dps. I dunno about your dps you are against but a 40-60k hit is going to yank off you if you wasted your first global with a outbreak. My first Howling Blast alone could have the main tank mob turning to me instead of you. But if your experience is primarily 5mans that is one thing. But when you get a caster alone that hits for 100k with a single spell? You'll probably blame them for not assisting on you when they did.

The pull must be done with ranged.
Warriors/bears use charge, paladins AS. That leaves us with outbreak, dnd, or icy touch. None of these will hold aggro while we close into melee range; single target or AoE. Boss pulls, trash pulls, whatever... We will lose aggro on the first hit (usually a timespan of 1 gcd).

It's a fault with the class imo. The lack of a gap closer hurts. I've been pulling single-target with OB + Dark Command just to cover my !@#.

If someone here says they can pull anything without losing aggro at all during the initial pull, I'll call them a liar. Unless you have patient dps who will wait 1-2 gcd's.
I told you how to do it.

DnD gives a tic for them come out you. BB when your'e in the 10 yards or close range then BB again if you have to. But if you waste that global they will pull off you. This is not my first time tanking. My point is if you pull with outbreak you can even lose the mob to the healer if they had a earth shield on you. Blood Boil hits further than your melee range. Why I mentioned using it to get htem turned on you before the gap is even full closed. But what do I know...
The tick from DnD will lose aggro to 1 hit just like everything else.
My dnd personally ticks for ~600 each with 0 vengeance.
dnd --> bb
is the same as
ob --> bb
for initial threat.
The tick from DnD will lose aggro to 1 hit just like everything else.
My dnd personally ticks for ~600 each with 0 vengeance.


Funny that when I use the tools as I've described it? I don't have a problem and i'm dealing with legendary using dps...

edited to add

I only listed DnD as an option. Blood Boil is your main tool to get them turning to you. If you have roiling blood it has the benefit of dot'ing the rest of them for you. But don't bother dot'ing until really you've at least used all your main threat runes to insure that the mobs are on you first. Again using Outbreak does not grant you threat and strong dps will pass you up thanks to it.
I still pull with DnD on raid trash and 5 man packs. Now that we can switch talents on the fly, I don't see any reason not to grab Roiling Blood while you kill raid trash or just keep Roiling Blood specced while you are focused on 5 man.

Personally I am using:
DnD -> Outbreak -> Blood Boil -> Heart Strike if <= 3 enemies otherwise Blood Boil

Usually I can get DnD and Outbreak off while closing the gap. If you use a different order of operations and it works then awesome. I won't argue with anyone who has something that works for them in whatever content they choose to play :D

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