Get rid of 25 man raiding

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
I am not a raider anymore, and haven't raided in any significant capacity since Wrath, so please forgive my ignorance, but please consider my point of view.

From everything I'm reading, 25 man raiding is dead or dying. And maybe that's okay. Maybe it is time for us to say goodbye to the 25 man raiding format. /duck

The problem that I think I see is with a subtle difference between content design and system design. The current plight of 10 vs. 25 man raiding is a result of attempting to address a problem through system design rather than content design, which should never happen.

The problem that must be addressed is two-tiered: you must figure out how to keep raiding accessible, while also providing enough challenge to keep players working on the content for long enough periods of time. Rather than try to solve this problem by designing the system around it, address it through content and lore.

My idea is that each raiding tier be comprised of at least a 10-man raid and a 20 man raid, with the lore explanation that the smaller raid would need to be completed before the larger raid. The 10 man would be designed and sized appropriately to create challenging movement scenarios. The 20 man raid would be designed around the idea that it takes 2 properly composed 10 man teams to complete. This would address the logistical problem that currently exists when scaling up from 10 to 25 that you don't need an equal ratio of tanks/healers/dps as in 10s.

I think instance groups should be designed to lego-brick each respective team size: 20 mans are built with 2 10 man groups, 10 mans are build with 2 5 man groups. This allows players to organize teams appropriate for the content they are working on, but it also allows for a large group to be broken down into functional smaller groups to handle encounters.

The content design theory comes in heavily in the 20 man raid concept. With 2 composed 10 man teams, you now have the opportunity to create scenarios where those teams have to work in unison or possibly split up to achieve separate goals in order to progress the whole raid. To take this concept to an extreme degree, you could split a 20 man raid into 4 5-man teams to solve a puzzle in the raid dungeon.

Most guilds who are interested in raiding can compose a 10 man raiding team and clear at least some content. If they can't get 2 whole 10 mans, they can create a raiding alliance with another guild in the same situation. Since the growth of 10 man raiding in Cataclysm there are many 10 man guilds in this situations, and this is how many small guilds who were only big enough to do UBRS did ZG in vanilla. Larger guilds would be able to compose as many multiples of 10 man teams as they wanted and lego-brick them together as needed to run the 20 man raids. For the guilds out there that just can't swing getting into the 20 man raid, LFR exists so they can at least see the content.

As for dealing with the increased difficulty of each progressive tier of raiding and potential gear inflation, the content in each progressive 10 man should be doable with the gear from the previous 10 man, and the same would be true of the 20 mans. This would allow guilds to skip the 20 man raids if they couldn't field the bodies, but would prevent them from completely leap-frogging to the next 20 man without completing the 10 man that precede's it. This should help to make sure to some extent that gear rewards and appropriate to the effort that went into earning them.

I think this setup solves another issue as well. Players that are able to successfully complete 20 man raids would theoretically be allowed to see content that was more interesting, engaging, and hopefully more challenging than the 10 mans, adding to the feeling of appropriate reward for overcoming the logistical problem of fielding more raiders.

Issues of heroics, lockouts, and other things I'm not including here shouldn't be too difficult to address. Ultimately, I think my concept illustrates that the solution to these problems can be addressed through creation of compelling content and designing the systems around that, rather than designing the system and trying to make the content fit within that system for both raid sizes.
09/22/2012 10:06 PMPosted by Elthrassar
I am not a raider anymore, and haven't raided in any significant capacity since Wrath, so please forgive my ignorance, but please consider my point of view.


Having no knowledge of the subject, means you probably shouldn't make a bold statement.

I think the NBA should be dissolved, because I don't watch it, see, this doesn't work well.
09/22/2012 10:06 PMPosted by Elthrassar
I am not a raider anymore, and haven't raided in any significant capacity since Wrath, so please forgive my ignorance, but please consider my point of view.


You're basically saying "I'm not a scientist, and I haven't been in a lab since high school, but this is what you should do."
I am not a raider anymore, and haven't raided in any significant capacity since Wrath, so I don't even know why I'm posting this


Fixed.
The game has been developed with the 'delete' button sufficiently...small-scale raiding failed to retain subscribers, it's time to return to large-scale raids.
09/22/2012 10:06 PMPosted by Elthrassar
I am not a raider anymore, and haven't raided in any significant capacity since Wrath, so please forgive my ignorance, but please consider my point of view.
At first I thought this was a pretty funny point, one worthy of mockery and such.
Then I realized this is mostly true about every post on these forums, you just had the common decency to let everyone know beforehand.

Also, no.
09/22/2012 10:06 PMPosted by Elthrassar
My idea is that each raiding tier be comprised of at least a 10-man raid and a 20 man raid, with the lore explanation that the smaller raid would need to be completed before the larger raid. The 10 man would be designed and sized appropriately to create challenging movement scenarios. The 20 man raid would be designed around the idea that it takes 2 properly composed 10 man teams to complete. This would address the logistical problem that currently exists when scaling up from 10 to 25 that you don't need an equal ratio of tanks/healers/dps as in 10s.


That doesn't solve any logistical problems at all. It complicates logistics, as a matter of fact. Any guild wanting to do 20 mans would need to break into several 10 groups and progress as 10 mans until those raids were finished, then recombine for 20 mans. That's a logistical nightmare.

It's a terrible solution.
09/22/2012 10:06 PMPosted by Elthrassar
I am not a raider anymore


So why should I bother reading your wall of text on taking away a raiding size?
09/23/2012 09:59 AMPosted by Nery
Am I the only person sick of having "non raiders" trying to dictate how raids should work?


Well, to be fair, the OP is an above average raider, even having not raided in 15 months.
I think the NHL should be dissolved, because I don't watch it, see, this doesn't work well.


Oh wait, that's happening anyway. Lockouts gonna lock out.
09/23/2012 09:59 AMPosted by Nery
I am not a raider anymore

Stopped reading there.

Am I the only person sick of having "non raiders" trying to dictate how raids should work?


Ditto and no.
Maybe back when raids were hard and few people got to do them, they should have just removed them instead of making changes to improve their viability. I mean it would only anger that tiny percentage of players who actually raided. Think of all the development time they could have saved!
09/23/2012 01:55 PMPosted by Fuzzytime
Maybe back when raids were hard and few people got to do them, they should have just removed them instead of making changes to improve their viability. I mean it would only anger that tiny percentage of players who actually raided. Think of all the development time they could have saved!


They could of just went with the Guild Wars 2 style, of banning half their playerbase to save on serverload.
Absolutely not. Don't you dare take my 25 man raids away.
I am not a raider anymore, and haven't raided in any significant capacity since Wrath, so please forgive my ignorance, but please consider my point of view.

From everything I'm reading, 25 man raiding is dead or dying. And maybe that's okay. Maybe it is time for us to say goodbye to the 25 man raiding format.


I'm sorry, but you have no credibility to make this statement.

25 man raiding has been a staple of this game since day one of The Burning Crusade. It allows for raids to still have that 'epic' feel about them while every single other aspect of this game gets streamlined and simplified - talent trees, rotations, dungeons, the leveling process, etc.


Am I the only person sick of having "non raiders" trying to dictate how raids should work?


I think all of us in the D&R community are sick of this. None of us try to make the claim that Blizzard should remove lol-2v2 arena because it doesn't require as much teamwork as 3v3 or 5v5 and is nearly impossible to balance.
I'm all in favor of getting rid of 25mans as long as they're replaced by 40man raids. Or bigger. I think 50 is a nice round number. Could also shrink 10mans down to 5 and have 5man and 50man raiding.
09/23/2012 08:23 PMPosted by Robokapp
I'm all in favor of getting rid of 25mans as long as they're replaced by 40man raids. Or bigger. I think 50 is a nice round number. Could also shrink 10mans down to 5 and have 5man and 50man raiding.


Ha! What is this craziness?

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