5.0 Windwalker PvE Guide

Monk
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Hi, I'm Alaron of World of Monkcraft and WoW Insider, and this is my Windwalker PvE guide!
For the full version with links and pictures, go here: (http://worldofmonkcraft.com/windwalker-mists-of-pandaria-guide/)

This guide is intended for level 90 PvE content. While leveling, use whatever you think is appropriate (Touch of Death is great for questing!).

Last updated 8 Oct 2012.

Introduction

Windwalker monks are a melee DPS specialization that was newly added to the game for the Mists of Pandaria expansion. Any race, except Worgen and Goblin, can be a monk. Like all monks, they have two resources that must be managed; energy and chi.

Energy regenerates at 10/sec (baseline), and is used to power several abilities. Windwalkers have a 100-point energy pool. Energy regeneration does scale with haste, and can also be temporarily buffed by Energizing Brew.

In contrast, chi is a static 4-point pool, similar to a paladin’s holy power, that decays when out of combat. To build chi, a windwalker monk will typically use a “chi builder,” such as Jab, which hits for very little but generates chi. The windwalker monk’s hardest-hitting abilities, or “chi consumers,” use that chi to generate the bulk of the windwalker’s damage. The key difference between chi and other secondary resource systems (such as holy power or combo points) is that all chi consuming abilities have a fixed cost and damage, compared to the others where damage/effect scales based on the amount of secondary resource currently banked.

What does that mean? Well, it opens up your flexibility quite a bit. Rogues, for example, pretty much never use a finisher unless they’re at maximum combo points, because of the way it scales. In contrast, windwalkers have the flexibility to alternate chi builders and consumers for steady damage, or use multiple builders to store chi, and then multiple consumers for extra damage during a burst period.

Every fight against non-trivial enemies will require careful management of both resources. The two primary mistakes you want to avoid are chi dumping and energy capping. Chi dumping is using a chi builder when you are already at full chi (thereby wasting time and energy) whereas energy capping is allowing your energy meter to fill to 100, which causes your energy regeneration to stop. As you get used to the spec, you’ll learn how to weave chi builders and chi consumers together to keep a constant flow going.

Ability List

Primary Rotation/Abilities

  • Jab - 40 energy, no CD. Basic attack. Increases chi by 1 baseline, increased to 2 via Stance of the Fierce Tiger. Can proc a free Tiger Palm/Blackout Kick via the Windwalker’s Mastery, Combo Breaker. Primary chi builder for single-target.
  • Rising Sun Kick - 2 chi, 8s CD. Heavy damage to current target and causes all targets within 8 yds to take 10% additional damage (from the Monk) for 15 sec. Use this on cooldown.
  • Fists of Fury - 3 chi, 25s CD. Unlike the other instant abilities, this is a 4 sec channel that hits 5 times for significant damage. It also stuns enemies during the channel. Downsides: expensive, it’s channeled (can be interrupted, no autoattack during the channel) and it splits damage among targets hit, which makes it not very good for AoE unless the stun works. See below for more on FoF.
  • Blackout Kick - 2 chi, no CD. Hits for good damage, and adds a DoT for 20% of the damage if attacking from behind, or a self-heal for 20% if attacking from the front (Combat Conditioning). Occasionally usable for free due to Combo Breaker.
  • Tiger Palm - 1 chi, no CD. Moderate damage; adds a 10% armor penetration buff for your damage. The debuff stacks 3x, so 30% armor reduction. (10% armor reduction = 3-4% more damage, roughly.) Occasionally usable for free due to Combo Breaker.
  • Spinning Crane Kick - 40 energy, no CD, generates 1 chi if it hits three or more enemies. Channeled 3 sec AoE that hits 4 times. Primary chi builder for AoE.
  • Energizing Brew - 60s CD. A energy regen cooldown, very similar to a feral druid’s Tiger’s Fury except slower. Like TF, you’ll want to use this as soon as it comes off cooldown and the extra energy isn’t wasted.
  • Tigereye Brew - This is your “click me for more damage” button. It doesn’t have an actual cooldown, but you’ll want to use it at 10 stacks to maximize the effect, so roughly every 75s-90s, or more if you have to stop attacking a lot.
  • Invoke Xuen, the White Tiger - Your Level 90 talent. The other options appear to be more AoE focused, so we’ll rely on Xuen for the time being. Xuen is a fast-attacking cat that also has a cleaving lightning ability, so you'll want to use him for multiple targets if you can.


Secondary DPS Abilities/Cooldowns/Utility:

  • Spinning Fire Blossom - This is your ranged damage ability, for the fights that force you out of melee. You can also use Crackling Jade Lightning if you’re out of chi.
  • Expel Harm - Interesting ability here; generates 2 chi, heals you up to X, and then transfers that damage to your target. You’ll want to sub in Expel Harm instead of a Jab when it’s off cooldown and you’re hurt. Don’t use it at full health, though; you’ll get the chi, but you won’t get any healing or damage.
  • Fortifying Brew - 180 second cooldown. This is your big personal survivability cooldown. Increases health by 20% and reduces damage taken by 20%. Best saved for predicted burst moments or “I’m about to die” times.
  • Dampen Harm / Diffuse Magic - 90 sec CD. You get ONE of these abilities as your Level 75 talent choice. (Or Healing Elixirs, but I wouldn’t recommend that one at all.) Both talents are great; DH is great for boss burst, while DM is more situational but absolutely killer in those situations.
  • Zen Sphere/Chi Wave/Chi Burst - Your Level 30 talent, usable for some selfhealing in a pinch. Chi Wave's the best.
  • Roll - Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge! Yeah. This gets you out of the way of something fast; click it, and your monk instantly rolls about 20 yards in the direction you’re currently moving. (This is different from things like Blink and Disengage, which operate according to the direction you’re facing.) It has two charges so can be used twice; one charge regenerates every 20 seconds.
  • Flying Serpent Kick - All monks get Roll, but only windwalkers get FSK. Click once to take off, click again to land and do some damage. The damage is fairly irrelevant; what’s important is that you move at epic flying speed or so (280%), which is AWESOME. Takes some practice to use, though.
  • Touch of Death - Instakills enemies with less health than you. While it’s pretty irrelevant in a raid setting, it’s still pretty cool for questing. Not usable on players, sadly (though the PvP set bonus lets you use it in a limited fashion)
  • Touch of Karma - This basically doubles your health for ten seconds AND reflects damage. Sweet.
  • Legacy of the Emperor - It’s a buff! Gives 5% to primary stats for you and your group. All monks get this.
  • Legacy of the White Tiger - It’s another buff! Gives 5% crit (was supposed to be mastery, but dunno) to you and your group. Only windwalkers get this.


Everything Else:

  • Crackling Jade Lightning - channeled spell, does a bit of ranged damage. Nice for pulling instantly.
  • Detox - 8 sec CD. Poison/disease dispel. All healers have an 8s CD on this now, so you might have to help out on certain fights.
  • Disable - 15 energy, no CD. A snare/root combo; use once to snare (snare persists as long as you keep in melee range), use again to root for 8 sec.
  • Spear Hand Strike - Your interrupt. Pretty expensive in terms of energy costs.
  • Paralysis - 20 energy, 15 sec CD. Melee range CC, lasts 30 seconds or 60 if done from behind. Can be (short) ranged with the appropriate talent.
  • Resucitate - 50 energy. Bring someone back to life out-of-combat. Yay.
  • Path of Blossoms - 30 energy. Creates a Fire Blossom at your feet, or up to 3 if you're moving. Fire Blossoms work like miniature proximity mines. Overall, not too helpful.
  • Zen Pilgrimage - 30 min CD. Teleports you to the Peak of Serenity in Pandaria, where you can train and do some cool quests.


Passives:


  • Mastery: Combo Breaker - each Jab has a chance to proc Combo Breaker: TP or Combo Breaker: BOK, which makes the next ability of those free.
  • Stance of the Fierce Tiger - DPS stance, increases damage by 20% and causes Jab/Expel Harm to reward 2 chi instead of 1.
  • Adaptation - 25% dodge chance when disarmed.
  • Combat Conditioning - Blackout Kick does 20% extra damage when attacking from behind, or 20% healing when attacking from the front.
  • Sparring - 5% parry buff (stacks 4x) when attacked by a melee enemy and attacking back.
  • Fighting Style - Your Jab changes icons to match whatever weapon you have equipped. Purely cosmetic.
  • Swift Reflexes - Gives you 5% parry, and your parries do a small amount of damage.
  • Tiger Strikes - Autoattacks can proc this, which gives you a few extra fast autoattacks.
  • Way of the Monk - Increases DW damage, and 2H attack speed. Balancing tool.


Rotations/Priorities

Still a work in progress, obviously. Many thanks to Gahddo for his work on the WW portion of Simulationcraft. Below, you’ll find a list of abilities you should be using for maximum DPS, and the order you should be using them in.

Single-Target:

1. Rising Sun Kick if debuff is down or about to drop.
2. Tiger Palm if buff is down, not fully stacked, or about to drop.
3. Tigereye Brew at 10 stacks.
4. Energizing Brew on cooldown. (Preferably only if energy below 40 or so.)
5. Invoke Xuen on cooldown.
6. Rising Sun Kick on cooldown.
7. Fists of Fury on cooldown, if used. (Only if energy below 50; don’t use while using Energizing Brew; don't use if you're not CERTAIN that every hit will land.)
8. Blackout Kick or Tiger Palm procs from Combo Breaker.
9. Jab or Expel Harm to generate chi.
10. Blackout Kick filler.

It looks long, but it’s not really too tough because most of it is cooldown-based. You’re going to click Tigereye Brew, Energizing Brew, Xuen, Rising Sun Kick, and Fists of Fury as soon as they’re available (mostly). Other than that, you use Combo Breaker procs, Tiger Palm to maintain the buff, Jab to generate chi, and toss a few Blackout Kicks when you have time and chi. FoF is not that strong: see the FAQ for more.

Overall, your damage breakdowns will look something like this:

35% melee (including Tiger Strikes)
25% Blackout Kick
15% Rising Sun Kick
10% Fists of Fury, if used. (If not, BOK will go up to compensate.)
15% everything else (Xuen, Jab, Tiger Palm)

AoE rotation:

2 targets: Stick with the single-target rotation.
3-4 targets: Stick with single-target rotation, but switch out Jab for SCK.
5+ targets: Keep Rising Sun Kick up and spam SCK, using Energizing Brew as needed.
9+ targets: Alternate Chi Burst with RSK. (Are there any relevant fights with this many targets?)

Talents and Glyphs

Talent Recommendations

Level 15: Celerity. With Flying Serpent Kick, we don’t need the long-range movement potential of Momentum.
Level 30: Chi Wave. I used to recommend Zen Sphere, but CW does significantly more healing and is smart. I've used it in heroics to help save a tank. Chi Burst can be useful if everyone's stacked up, but you really need to hit a LOT of targets with it for it to be good.
Level 45: Power Strikes or Chi Brew. Power Strikes requires less thought but if you want to optimize it, you have to track its internal CD, which sucks. Chi Brew is better if you can use it on cooldown; make sure you dump all your chi before using it, though.
Level 60: Leg Sweep. The best choice for helping out tanks with trash.
Level 75: Diffuse Magic. Healing Elixirs is too underpowered, and Dampen Harm is too situational. I’ll take the self-dispel.
Level 90: Invoke Xuen, the White Tiger. Because it’s AWESOME (and the other choices are pretty bad, though Rushing Jade Wind might be helpful for the occasional AoE situation).

Glyphs

There’s really not too big a selection in terms of interesting glyphs for Windwalkers, but here’s a few that might be worth it. Most are situational-type glyphs.

  • Glyph of Blackout Kick: Raiders will likely want to pass on the 20% heal, especially for fights that require you to attack frontally.
  • Glyph of Spinning Crane Kick: If you need to AoE on the move, you want this glyph.
  • Glyph of Spinning Fire Blossom: SFB is pretty hard to target accurately without the glyph. You don’t need the root.
  • Glyph of Fists of Fury: Raid bosses (and likely some trash mobs) aren’t susceptible to the FoF stun, so this lets you “tank” for a bit.
  • Glyph of Retreat: Good for 5-mans if you tend to be an aggro magnet.
  • Glyph of Expel Harm: A bit more range on this turns it into something you could use during a kite phase.
  • Glyph of Touch of Karma: Like Expel Harm, good for a kite phase.
  • Glyph of Enduring Healing Sphere: Reaching here, but maybe you can set up a “full heal” point prefight?
  • Glyph of Flying Serpent Kick: FSK can be tough to aim correctly.
  • Glyph of Afterlife: Good for leveling.


For leveling, I’ll probably roll with Afterlife, Spinning Fire Blossom, and Blackout Kick (that last one depends on how squishy I feel). Once I hit 90, I’ll go with Blackout Kick, Spinning Crane Kick, and one other, though nothing really jumps out at me for the third slot.

Gear, Stat Weights and Reforging

Stat weights are looking fairly simple: Agility is the best, followed by hit/expertise to cap (7.5%), then haste, then crit, then mastery. (Dual-wielding monks get a small benefit from extra hit over 7.5%, but its less valuable than any other stat.) For reforging, you’ll want to follow that order. Gemming is slightly more complicated, however, explained below.

Enchants/Professions

Here’s all the recommended enchants: I’ll try to go back and add in others if options present themselves. Having two crafting professions remains the best choice. Not mentioned in the table is Alchemy (+320 agi or +450 stam from Mixology) and Jewelcrafting (2 gems that give +160 agi over their rare equivalents). Herbalism (2880 haste on-use ability) and Skinning (480 crit) bonuses are half as effective as those from the crafting professions; Mining (480 stamina) is of course useful but YMMV.

Head: Head enchants are gone!
Shoulders: Greater Tiger Claw Inscription (200 agi, 100 crit) Inscription: Secret Tiger Claw Inscription (520 agi, 100 crit)
Chest: Glorious Stats (80 all primary stats)
Waist: Living Steel Buckle (gem socket)
Legs: Shadowleather Leg Armor (285 agi, 165 crit)Leatherworking: Primal Leg Reinforcements (cheap version)
Feet: Blurred Speed (140 agi, +8% movespeed)
Wrists: Greater Agility (170 agi) Blacksmithing: Socket Bracer (gem socket, stacks with enchant) Leatherworking: Fur Lining – Agility (500 agi)
Hands: Superior Expertise (170 exp) or Greater Haste (170 haste) Blacksmithing: Socket Gloves (gem socket, stacks with enchant) Engineering: Synapse Springs (1920 agi proc, stacks with enchant)
Fingers: Enchanting: Greater Agility (160 agi) x2
Back: Accuracy (180 hit) or Superior Critical Strike (180 crit) Tailoring: Swordguard Embroidery (4000 AP proc)
Main Hand: Dancing Steel (1650 agi proc).

Gems and Consumables

Gemming

In order to make non-primary stat gems more compelling, Mists doubled the amount of secondary stats provided by gems. At the moment, this is really only relevant for hit and expertise, as only those stats are worth more than 50% of agility. As such, you should gem hit/exp to cap first, then follow the stat weights in the gear table. Perfect gems are now equivalent to rares. Epic gems are in the wowhead database, but I’m holding off on those for right now. If the stat weights change significantly, I’ll go back and add the other colors. Of course, if you’re a Jewelcrafter, use your supergems first.

Meta: Since there’s no metagem with hit or expertise, only one choice here: the Agile Primal Diamond.
Red: Delicate Primordial Ruby/Perfect Delicate Pandarian Garnet, 160 agi; Precise Primordial Ruby/Perfect Precise Pandarian Garnet, 320 exp.
Blue: Rigid River’s Heart/Perfect Rigid Lapis Lazuli, 320 hit.
Yellow: Probably suboptimal to match yellow colors.

Consumables

Consumables basically work the same as they did in Cataclysm, with one major difference: there are now three tiers of food, instead of two. The best tier (+300 agi) is individual foods; the bottom two tiers (275 and 250) have individual foods or feasts, now known as “banquets.” The Pandaren Banquets/Great Pandaren Banquets are for 10m/25m respectively, and offer 275 to all. There are several other banquets, one for each cooking sub-specialization (Grill, Oven, Pot, Steamer, Wok, Brew). All of those provide 250 agi, except for Wok, which also provides 275 agi. Be prepared to level Cooking or spend heavily on the AH. Flasks and Potions work the same way they did in Cataclysm.

300 agi: Sea Mist Rice Noodles
275 agi: Valley Stir Fry, Chao Cookies, Pandaren Banquet/Great Pandaren Banquet, Banquet of the Wok
250 agi: Sauteed Carrots
Flask: Flask of Spring Blossoms
Potion: Virmen’s Bite

Additional Info

Boss-Specific Strategies (TBA)

Coming soon, likely sometime after launch.

Advanced Discussion

Extra discussion/tidbits here that didn’t make sense anywhere else in the guide. I’ll add things here periodically.

2H or DW?

Simulationcraft is currently showing DW with a small DPS advantage, with the difference mostly coming from better proc rates on weapon enchants (and likely trinkets). Overall, the difference is fairly negligible.

Is Fists of Fury optional?

FoF is not all that strong. It's a DPS gain of 2-5% over not using it at all, but only if every tick connects; if you have to interrupt FoF early, it's a loss. Choosing to leave it out is certainly a decision on certain fights.

Strengths/Weaknesses of Windwalkers, compared to other melee DPS: (for raidleaders or rerollers in competitive guilds)

Strengths:

Great at switching targets. The high mobility afforded by FSK and FoF lets you get to a target quickly.
Exemplary damage mitigation and good self-healing. Between Touch of Karma, Diffuse Magic/Dampen Harm, Fortify Brew, and Zen Meditation (mitigation) and Zen Sphere/Expel Harm (healing), a well-played WW will be less taxing on a healer than other melee DPS classes.
Weaknesses:
Clunky basic abilities. Spear Hand Strike costs a ton of energy, compared to other classes. Fists of Fury locks you into being still for 3-4 seconds every 25, and the “splitting damage among multiple targets” thing doesn’t help much if you have a priority target.
Low burst potential. The brews are short cooldowns that are intended to be used rotationally, so the only real burst comes from Xuen, which isn’t that strong (it IS strong if there’s adds, however).

Heirloom Gear Recommendations

Weapons:

2 Venerable Mass of McGowan
1 Burnished Warden Staff
1 Venerable Dal’Rend’s Sacred Charge (main hand only) + 1 Mass of McGowan
1 Battleworn Thrash Blade (suboptimal, unique so can only use 1) + 1 Mass of McGowan
Armor:

Shadowcraft gear: Cap, Tunic, Spaulders
Inherited Cape of the Black Baron
Dread Pirate Ring (yeah, right, good luck)
2x Swift Hand of Justice (no xp% gain)

Other Useful Sites

My site, World of Monkcraft, has everything you could ever need, though I may be biased. (http://worldofmonkcraft.com) I also write monk articles for WoW Insider here: (http://wow.joystiq.com/category/Monk/)

Disargeria has great info over at Monk and Monk, and knows much more about monks then I. (http://www.disargeria.net/)

Mihir is writing the Windwalker guide for MMO-Champion. From reading his feral stuff, I know he knows what’s going on. Check it out. (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1178403-The-Teachings-of-Xuen-A-Windwalker-PvE-Guide)

Well, that wraps up the guide. This is a living document, so add your suggestions and comments and I'll try to incorporate them where I can!
Reserved if needed.
Great stuff man.

Only question I have are weapons...

Anything showing that DW is better than 2H or vice versa?
DW is substantially better than 2h currently. In BiS gear its a gap of ~5k that only grows larger with better gear.

Its also worth noting that in a perfect rotation with perfect FoF usage, its a negligible gain. Within that perfect rotation if you were to drop FoF from your rotation entirely, you only lose around 1.6% of your theoretical max DPS, and as haste and mastery levels increase with later tiers it becomes even less and less of a loss until eventually by the final tier, were no changes to happen, FoF would be a flat DPS loss again.

If you miss a tick due to a boss moving in a realistic scenario, then you've already lost DPS by choosing to use it. So if there is any chance of the boss moving or you needing to move, then don't use it at that time.

I also would like to say that Chi Wave is absolutely amazing for the solo WW and provides amazing healing, long term and burst when needed. ZS as much as I like the ability takes far too long to provide a meaningful amount healed for the cost.

Finally RSK on CD should be the monks top priority as its higher DPET than any other ability in the monk arsenal.
Good point on FoF - I'll add that in when I revise the guide. I'll take your point on CW; I didn't think about the fact that it hits you (and your target multiple times.)
09/26/2012 12:34 PMPosted by Alamonk
Good point on FoF - I'll add that in when I revise the guide. I'll take your point on CW; I didn't think about the fact that it hits you (and your target multiple times.)


Not a good point.

09/25/2012 10:44 PMPosted by Kallik
Its also worth noting that in a perfect rotation with perfect FoF usage, its a negligible gain. Within that perfect rotation if you were to drop FoF from your rotation entirely, you only lose around 1.6% of your theoretical max DPS, and as haste and mastery levels increase with later tiers it becomes even less and less of a loss until eventually by the final tier, were no changes to happen, FoF would be a flat DPS loss again.


I keep seeing this pop up, and a bunch of random numbers flying around, but I never see any proof?

My personal testing and theorycrafting have shown otherwise?
Maybe you forgot they buffed it dramatically?
I fully support everything happening in this thread.
Just FYI, looks like you left some Brewmaster-specific stuff in the "Everything Else" section.

Great guide besides that, thanks!
@Advanced

Most of the data regarding FoF was simmed and physically tested post-buff just before launch on the provided raid buffed dummies. This was done with ungemmed / unenchanted Malevolent PvP gear and simmed in raid gear. A large part of the damage was the loss of TS and white hits as they make up ~30% of the monks total damage at 90 when duel wielding.

Its also worth noting that the 2pc 14 bonus is only worth ~0.064% dps making it close to if not the worst bonus added to date.

Personally I feel one of the best solutions to FoF (and I held on to this through most the beta) was to up the CD to one minute, and up the damage to 2.5-3x what it is OR increase the damage to compensate for time and add a +haste/crit modifier after successful completion of the cast.

On a side note with hopes Mastery will get a tweak so it isn't such a poor stat to get on gear and leaving the class so potentially GCD locked by the final tier of this xpac. Either make the attacks fire off automatically piggybacking off casts of the manual casts of each ability for a 50-100% full damage of the hit like Ele's Overload, or increase the damage of the next one used. As it stands the rotation will have an intense APM requirement by T16.
Good point on FoF - I'll add that in when I revise the guide. I'll take your point on CW; I didn't think about the fact that it hits you (and your target multiple times.)


Not a good point.

Its also worth noting that in a perfect rotation with perfect FoF usage, its a negligible gain. Within that perfect rotation if you were to drop FoF from your rotation entirely, you only lose around 1.6% of your theoretical max DPS, and as haste and mastery levels increase with later tiers it becomes even less and less of a loss until eventually by the final tier, were no changes to happen, FoF would be a flat DPS loss again.


I keep seeing this pop up, and a bunch of random numbers flying around, but I never see any proof?

My personal testing and theorycrafting have shown otherwise?
Maybe you forgot they buffed it dramatically?


See http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6606901110?page=3 In general simulations are better than theorycrafting or target dummy tests (at least for stationary fights). Care to share what data you have that says otherwise or how you got it?
Those at 90 on live, has anyone looked into the damage of Spinning Fire Blossom? I remember it being brought up near the end of the beta after a buff but it seemed the damage was a tad higher than what it should be especially for its damage per chi as opposed to BoK.

At 74 the damage is notably leaning towards SFB as a better nuke when allowed by GCD's to prevent from capping chi / energy. The damage at this level being around 1300 dpc for BoK and ~2250 for SFB. Can anyone look into this at 90? It seems mess with white swings so it wouldn't be a full replacement but the damage just seems high for the cost.
Those at 90 on live, has anyone looked into the damage of Spinning Fire Blossom? I remember it being brought up near the end of the beta after a buff but it seemed the damage was a tad higher than what it should be especially for its damage per chi as opposed to BoK.

At 74 the damage is notably leaning towards SFB as a better nuke when allowed by GCD's to prevent from capping chi / energy. The damage at this level being around 1300 dpc for BoK and ~2250 for SFB. Can anyone look into this at 90? I'm still a couple days out.


Spinning Fire Blossom has good damage when you're forced to stay ranged, but in melee the damage is halved and you're better off using your normal rotation.

09/25/2012 07:02 PMPosted by Alamonk
Energy regenerates at a constant rate (10/sec), and is used to power several abilities.

FALSE! Haste increases your regen rate for energy, which is the main reason haste is the highest priority in gearing (after hit/exp/agi).

09/25/2012 10:44 PMPosted by Kallik
DW is substantially better than 2h currently. In BiS gear its a gap of ~5k that only grows larger with better gear.

Don't know where you're pulling this number from, but in all my tests (live/beta, dungeons/dummies/raids) I've seen negligible differences between DW and 2H all while being nearly on top of the damage lists.
Would you please provide your data to show that they're equal and your rotation used?. Sims are showing the 5k range in BiS gear, and it was notable around a 1.5-2k range on beta with numerous reports.

http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14H.html

That holds a chunk of the discussion especially with scaling for DW since the bonus grants additional damage as opposed to just haste. There is no way to balance the two without artificial buffs along the way for 2H.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6294649981?page=22

The SFB damage I was referring to was within melee range and were the class not so hindered by GCD's at 90, it may have became the unintended filler pre-inevitable hotfix nerf.
09/27/2012 10:21 PMPosted by Kallik
Personally I feel one of the best solutions to FoF (and I held on to this through most the beta) was to up the CD to one minute, and up the damage to 2.5-3x what it is OR increase the damage to compensate for time and add a +haste/crit modifier after successful completion of the cast.


damage increase to FoF would have bad PVP ramifications

09/27/2012 10:26 PMPosted by Moncoko
Care to share what data you have that says otherwise or how you got it?


When i was testing some beta changes to update the monk simc module after all of the windwalker changes went out on beta, I was doing runs to check the differences. I was using an older profile and before some tiger strikes fixes which likely gave me some skewed numbers.

---

Just simmed the difference of using FoF and not using it and its a 2% loss in a pre-raid geared character. I guess gahddo is tightening the profile up pretty well and the new flurry like tiger strikes delay and damage formula in the sim are affecting my initial results.

I just ran the same difference with your current gear (moncoko) to compare the loss difference of 2h vs DW, and I'm getting 4.63% loss by not using FoF. While this still isn't huge by any means (2.2k dps of 46.6k).

So I guess you guys are right; Unless something is severely broken in simc with fists of fury (which it wasn't on my last ability damage number pass).

I need to check that it is scaling with haste, which could be a very serious problem.

^^ EDIT: Apparently ticks were NOT hasted. MATH TIME ENGAGE

EDIT: Theres a couple wonky things with FoF that i'm working on testing. For some reason i'm having an issue with it hasting the ticks; working on getting that fixed right now. Since SCK uses the same formula for tick damage, it will also need to be fixed when i figure it out :x
Blizzard has stated they want FoF used rotationally. Currently its not worth it most the time.

The only real options are a buff to the ability which if damage is added then yes, PvP issues would more than likely result, if a +haste or crit, it'd be less likely. Allowing auto attacks and TS would help a good bit but I'm still rather mixed. I feel like FoF could give WW the baseline CD that it needs besides a terrible version of Tiger's Fury.
09/28/2012 10:11 AMPosted by Kallik
Blizzard has stated they want FoF used rotationally. Currently its not worth it most the time.

let me make sure the monk module is working correctly. Since FoF benefits from haste in game similar to mind flay (no breakpoints, but hasted base ticks), the fix to the windwalker module could significantly change its numerical benefit and the stat priorities as they seem to be craving haste. (likely increase haste tbh..)

at level 87, my FoF is 3.3s intead of the base 4. In the sim its always assuming the base 4 for some reason even though I have hasted ticks enabled now. Coding the monk module has been a huge feat as its pretty weird compared to other classes so theres alot of brand new coding; So any data you have on FoF that is based on SimC is wrong atm.
My name is Ricekrispies, and I support this thread.
Would you please provide your data to show that they're equal and your rotation used?. Sims are showing the 5k range in BiS gear, and it was notable around a 1.5-2k range on beta with numerous reports.

http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14H.html


Look at the data they used more closely next time. The 2H module uses a gear set that is not hit capped, nor is it expertise capped (for dodge). On the otherhand DW is both expertise capped and hit capped (7.5%) and a significant change can and will show in those iterations.

Additionally, stats are skewed in favor of mastery in the gear listed for 2H while haste is significantly higher in the DW profile used.

Please please please use your brain before you make brash assumptions on simcraft data which is very commonly wrong. Yes it provides a ballpark, but never will I assume it to be precise and accurate.

As for data, I'll collect some for you when servers come back up. Never thought I would have to prove something I was researching myself. While it's fine to play with your numbers in simcraft and in other calculators, the best tool for figuring out which is better is simply to perform it in game and test it yourself.
09/28/2012 10:43 AMPosted by Aryvei
While it's fine to play with your numbers in simcraft and in other calculators, the best tool for figuring out which is better is simply to perform it in game and test it yourself.


I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I'm skeptical. I've seen significant results with FoF being used in game vs the most recent sims, which was caused by some weird changes done in simc. I'm looking forward to your results, and i'm currently fixing the sim to reflect hasted FoF.

I also need to fix the non-hit non-exp capped profile, as I have personally gotten both caps nearly on-the-money by just changing the cloak to the other pvp cloak (maybe the boots too, not sure) in comparison to the profile.

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