Stat weight question for Ret

Paladin
So I was playing around with askmrrobot while the servers are down for fun and decided to look at what it says would be optimum gems/enchants/reforges currently. I was shocked to see that it put hybrid str+haste gems in red gem slots and pure haste in yellow gem slots. So I guess my question is, is 2 haste > 1 str at 90?
The stat weights there answer my question: str=3.71, haste=2, so 2xhaste(4) > 1xstr(3.71), making gems favor haste over str. Interesting...
Id suggest not using askmrrobot either, that site is quite terrible.
Oh, I'm aware of that (haven't looked at it in nearly a year before today), as I said, I'm just playing around waiting for the severs to come back up.
It all depends on whether or not Strength is more than double the value of a secondary stat, if it isn't more than double than the secondary stat, then the secondary stats will be the preferred go to stats for gems as gem secondary stats are twice as large as primaries.

Ie while Primary stats are still the best stat point for point for all dps classes, it might be possible that gemming for a secondary stat is preferable due to the doubled amount of those secondary stats on gems.

Depending on what individual classes and specs stat weights end up being I think that there is a definite possibility that some classes might end up preferring gemming yellow stats, and that gemming for socket bonuses will be more common as main and secondary stats will be closer together in total value with regards to gems.
Hey, I'm one of the people behind Ask Mr. Robot and wanted to jump in. Paladinchaz, you said Mr. Robot isn't good - can you give me an example? I can either explain how it works, or look into a bug!

As far as this thread goes, Tarwth already pointed out that Mr. Robot is working as it should. STR is king, but based on stat weights, a haste gem is actually better for his class/spec, because of the weights. How awesome to have a robot to help with all that math.
09/28/2012 02:12 PMPosted by Zoopercat
Hey, I'm one of the people behind Ask Mr. Robot and wanted to jump in. Paladinchaz, you said Mr. Robot isn't good - can you give me an example? I can either explain how it works, or look into a bug!


The reforging is off, it reguarly leaves me under hit/exp caps. Even with human racials and other variables accounted for. Its happened quite a lot in the past
Paladinchaz - thanks for the info. When you say it leaves you under the caps, by how much? Sometimes you might be 0.1% below, and that's because any +hit over the cap has no value. So Mr. Robot tries to get you as close as possible, while having the best 'score.' (score = stats * stat-weight).

I'll be keeping an eye on this as people start to hit level 90 :) We tweaked the algorithms a bit to make sure we handle the new gems right (double secondary stats) and figure out the best way to get you to hit caps, etc. As with any big update, a few edge cases might slip through the cracks. So if something seems off, let me know! We're doing updates daily to make sure we catch all of the edge cases.

Stop by our forums, or hit us up on twitter @AskMrRobot with anything that isn't working as expected.

Edit: I looked at your character even though you aren't level 90 yet, just to see what happened. We had you a bit under the hit cap, so I looked for an easy way to get you there. I changed ONE reforge (see the box with gray dotted lines around it) and got you to exactly 15% Spell hit. I've added this to our list of cases to look at. Once we find out why Mr. Robot didn't suggest that combination, we can improve the algorithm for everyone :)

Link to the char I optimized: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/0d7779e1-e903-40cc-b381-53be6c691c21
Paladinchaz: We took a look at your case, here's the rundown.

- I changed one reforge, which caused Mr. Robot to re-optimize.
- My reforge locked in (gray dotted lines)
- Mr. Robot changed out 1 gem and 2 other reforges as we result of my lock.
- After Mr. Robot's re-optimization, your score improved by 0.08% (you got about 20 extra hit, equivalent to 6% of a gem).
- See a side-by-side comparison picture: http://blog.askmrrobot.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Paladinchaz.png
- As you can see - if a human did this, they'd also have to look at re-optimizing... and that would take a lot of time.

We allow users to lock in any number of selections, and then Mr. Robot tries to re-optimize around that. Sometimes that causes a better case, and they are usually edge-cases that we can improve on. We get 99% of the people to within 99.75% optimal. As you can see, Mr. Robot originally got you to 99.92% of the optimal score - within the margin of error.

A little background: there are about 500,000 combinations of optimizations. Let's assume at level 90 you have (super rough guesses)...
- 10 viable gem choices per piece of gear, 2 slots per gear, in 14 slots = 10 * 2 * 14 = 280
- 3 viable enchants per piece of gear, 12 slots = 36
- 4 viable reforge options per piece of gear, 14 slots = 56
- total: 280 * 36 * 56 = 564,480

A human can't go through all of those, we all agree on that. A computer can, that is, if it's running on YOUR computer. Since Mr. Robot does about 100 optimizations a minute, he needs to be FAST, so he needs to run through these calculations in a hundred milleseconds or so. That's why we have an algorithm that tries to do a few smart things to optimize, without examining all 500,000 combinations. (Hint: no website can do that without exploding. That's why simulators like SimC run on your computer, simming is a very 'expensive' task for a computer.)

That all being said, we are always trying to improve it. So we're looking at your case to see if there is a pattern that will allow us to make it more optimal without slowing it down. So thanks for giving me the info you did :)
If you really want to improve it... especially the reforging part, stop letting it regem based on whatever calculations it currently uses. Just about every spec has gems that they will always use in a given slot and those gems should basically never deviate. Any time it does.. it is giving wrong advice, and during Cataclysm it frequently advised people to use pure expertise gems in red sockets.

It should almost never tell someone to use a gem with a cap stat in it.. Especially a pure expertise or pure hit gem. Any time it does, it is giving wrong advice unless it is literally impossible to cap without it.
MrRobot always tries to suggest expertise gems. That's really annoying.

Edit: OP may also want to read the following, from EJ.

Pre-raid Dungeon Gear

In pre-raid Dungeon gear, Str is superior to every other stat* by a margin greater than 2 to 1.

Str is sufficiently superior to every other stat, that you do not want to Hit Cap through gemming if it can be done via Reforging. Note: Balhale and myself have both found it may be impossible to Hit cap Dungeon gear without gemming hit.

Gem pure Str except in the following situations:
You cannot Hit Cap via reforging. Use purple Hit gems, or straight blue if absolutely desperate.
You cannot Expertise cap via reforging. Use Expertise in any slot (via appropriate Orange/Purple/Green).

* - Not true for Hit/Exp, but bear with me. Lengthy explanation of why Str is desirable, even compared to double Secondary Stats is: here.

T14 Raid Gear and Beyond

Gemming Str + Haste (Fierce) Orange in Red sockets, full Haste (Quick) in Yellow sockets, and Hit + Haste (Lightning) in Blue sockets yields more dps than going full Str gems. 160 Str vs (320 Haste * 0.54 Str-equivalent per Haste) = 160 Str vs 172.8 Str-equivalent. This will only increase as gear gets better.

Otherwise you want to continue to gem as much Str as possible for the same reasoning as above.

Also, download SimulationCraft and start simming your own stat weights. You're actually going to need to for a little while with the way gems are now.
Thanks Svayne, that's very helpful!

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