How to get the most out of shatter?

Mage
Hello, quested this guy to 68 about a year ago and just dusted him off for MoP. Been experimenting with both Frost and Fire and while I'm leveling just fine I don't think I'm putting out the numbers I should be. I've been a tank since BC and now have a friendly wager with a long time DPS friend of mine that I intend to win.

So, what's the best way to get the most out of Shatter? Should I be weaving my pet's Freeze spell into my Frost rotation? Or drop Ring of Frost? Both?

Thanks for any advice.
If you're frost you have no reason not to be using pet freeze, it's only a 25 second cooldown and massive dmg. Start casting frostbolt, use pet freeze, mash ice lance while casting > dead things. Use deep freeze too. If you have a fof proc, use DF on the next mob and @%%*!*%! him in the same fashion. Both of those on cooldown? Might as well use ring for another shatter. All of these are short cooldowns, you should be using them.
Ring of frost can be clunky without presence of mind. Use ring of frost on a target that is already frozen, or in a polymorph.

definitely one of the best shatter combo's you can pull off involves taking frost bomb (the burstiest bomb) and glyph of fireblast. Open up on a target with frostbolt, frostbomb, pet freeze, frostbolt, fire blast. The fire blast, frost bomb, and frost bolt will all shatter at once. This is a massive damage spike. Your target will be slowed and you'll have an FoF charge and a Brain Freeze. You have options at this point. To keep the dps up, pop icy veins and frostbolt followed by deep freeze then frozen orb. Icelance spam while you have FoF charges, and ring of frost as the deep freeze ends. If they do get frozen by deep freeze, apply frostbomb and do another frostbolt+fireblast for massive shatter. Remember that your Brain Freeze acts as if the target is always frozen, so don't cast it when your target is frozen via other means.

Since I think you're actually asking about pve, then its a bit different. Any freeze that isn't a deep freeze will be broken fast by other players. Shatter mostly helps your icelances from FoF and your brain freezes. The keys here are to always use your bomb spell, always use your frozen orb (big damage and gives you lots of FoFs), use your pet freeze whenever available for extra FoF charges (i often pet freeze in the middle of flamestrike cast). In pve, boss or trash, you never want to wait on these abilities for when you need them, always use when available, particularly if you take frost bomb.
Thanks, that's exactly what I needed to know. First time trying to main a dps in PvE and trying to learn to PvP. Much appreciated.
Clarification question - I see people talking about using Deep Freeze in PvE. If I'm reading the tooltip correctly it's just a stun. What am I missing?
I've been leveling as arcane and the shatter combo for it can be pretty devastating. You build up your charges then nova/deep freeze. You can then pop cooldowns, do an AB followed by Abarr and its gotta be some of the highest burst in the game. I believe the damage on them is much higher than frost's combo, although frost can obviously do it more often. It requires a lot of set up but its quite amusing when it goes off :)
You don't even really need that fire blast glyph. I have been questing using frost with a devastatingly effective/simple rotation which I would use for PVP but also works in PVE questing.

Frost bomb > Frost bolt + Pet freeze > Deep freeze > Frostbolt + Ice lance > Frostfire bolt
-Make a macro /cast freeze and place it during the first frostbolt cast, since you can use pet abilities off the global cooldown and during casting.
-The Frost bomb will finish during Deep freeze and shatter.
-All attacks will benefit from shatter and mastery.
-If you have enough haste you can get in an extra Ice lance before Deep freeze ends, or even two Frostbolts and an Ice lance to finish.

If you need to do more damage use this:

Frost bomb > Frozen orb > Frost bolt + Pet freeze > Deep freeze > Frostbolt + Ice lance > Frostfire bolt and continue using FoF procs and Frost bolts
-The damage from the Frozen orb will also shatter against the Deep freeze.
-Use Icy Veins with glyph beforehand if it will be a longer fight.
09/28/2012 10:02 AMPosted by Oiynut
Clarification question - I see people talking about using Deep Freeze in PvE. If I'm reading the tooltip correctly it's just a stun. What am I missing?


For questing, Deep freeze is necessary as a mage for multiple reasons, first for survivability. While the mob is stunned you aren't taking damage and it allows you time to move away.
Secondly it makes use of the shatter mechanic ALL mage specs now use which gives a far greater chance to crit on frozen targets (over 25% crit will result in 100% crit shatters). Frost mages additionally benefit from the shatter mechanic through mastery which increases shattered damage.
Thirdly, while all mage freezes (frost nova, pet freeze, ring of frost etc) will result in a shatter, they break upon a certain amount of damage. Usually one shattered Frostbolt is enough to do this, or if you launch an Ice lance immediately after you can get both to shatter. A Deep freeze however will not break under damage and you can smash it as much as you want for the duration for greater burst damage.
I've been rolling:

Pet Freeze > Frostbolt stacks to 3/Cast my Bomb > Use my Ice Lance Procs > Pop anything that procs

For questing with my boyfriend, I pet freeze packs of 3-4, use LB and spread it, burn one at a time (similar to above rotation, I still stack FB before I IL) and the Bomb does massive damage once it runs dry/something dies (he's a prot pally so I do most of the dps)

Been working for me so far, have yet to die as long as the spawn rate isn't broken.
Clarification question - I see people talking about using Deep Freeze in PvE. If I'm reading the tooltip correctly it's just a stun. What am I missing?


For questing, Deep freeze is necessary as a mage for multiple reasons, first for survivability. While the mob is stunned you aren't taking damage and it allows you time to move away.
Secondly it makes use of the shatter mechanic ALL mage specs now use which gives a far greater chance to crit on frozen targets (over 25% crit will result in 100% crit shatters). Frost mages additionally benefit from the shatter mechanic through mastery which increases shattered damage.
Thirdly, while all mage freezes (frost nova, pet freeze, ring of frost etc) will result in a shatter, they break upon a certain amount of damage. Usually one shattered Frostbolt is enough to do this, or if you launch an Ice lance immediately after you can get both to shatter. A Deep freeze however will not break under damage and you can smash it as much as you want for the duration for greater burst damage.


i feel so noob.. cause i used frost bomb + fire blast glyph.. and i totally forgot about deep freeze until when i dinged 90...

i juz mounted up and aoe mobs down with that + the mix of frostnova and iceward, pet freeze for aoe shatters.. cause u can rotate between the 3 freezes cause frost bomb is around the same cd as a fire blast.. so i juz did that.. seemed easier and nicer on my screen due to the big numbers, usually saw like 60-90k crits wid the mastery.. was reforged to mastery and kept taking more mastery pieces as i saw along the way.

and a non-fof ice lance shatter seems to hit weaker then a fire blast from what i noticed..

and well, glyph of evocation + ice barrier usually helps.. elites i juz went around kiting wid coc + scorch spam
deep freeze is useless against bosses. Against non bosses its good because its a freeze that doesn't break on damage.
Yeah for dungeons and potentially raiding, Deep freeze is only useful on particularly nasty trash. The damage versus bosses was removed from Deep freeze as a mechanic.
One of my favorite methods against multiple targets is (once tank consolidates) Frozen Orb, Blizzard. Typically this breaks 100k DPS (+85k on average) with four or more targets. With two and three I've seen up to 96k. Switching after compound AoE into Pet Freeze for FoF and spamming Ice Lance while keeping Ice Ward up on tank with Focus Macro helps in multi-target scenarios. Single target is pretty straight forward with the nuking CDs and the proc's. I don't use Glyph of Fire Blast, I swapped it out with Glyph of Ice Lance. For me its easier to let FBomb expire normally than setting it up only because I have trouble with quick reactions a lot of times. I am using Glyph of Ice Lance and wondering if its worth it. Any thoughts on that?

I used to PvE in Frost back in Wrath when it wasn't the thing to do lol. Went Arcane in Cata and Fire in late Cata into MoP. Trying Frost for the first time in three years. Its pretty fun. :)
One of my favorite methods against multiple targets is (once tank consolidates) Frozen Orb, Blizzard. Typically this breaks 100k DPS (+85k on average) with four or more targets. With two and three I've seen up to 96k. Switching after compound AoE into Pet Freeze for FoF and spamming Ice Lance while keeping Ice Ward up on tank with Focus Macro helps in multi-target scenarios. Single target is pretty straight forward with the nuking CDs and the proc's. I don't use Glyph of Fire Blast, I swapped it out with Glyph of Ice Lance. For me its easier to let FBomb expire normally than setting it up only because I have trouble with quick reactions a lot of times. I am using Glyph of Ice Lance and wondering if its worth it. Any thoughts on that?

I used to PvE in Frost back in Wrath when it wasn't the thing to do lol. Went Arcane in Cata and Fire in late Cata into MoP. Trying Frost for the first time in three years. Its pretty fun. :)


Pretty much, I usually throw out Frozen orb, pet freeze, and then get ready to Ice lance spam while that Frozen orb is also shattering off everything that is frozen in place. Then chain on Ice ward to continue the Frozen orb shattering (I made a macro that places it on my focus, or myself if I don't have one).
I don't see any use for glyph of Fire blast for frost, its generally better to cast Frost bomb then Frostbolt then Deep freeze so the bomb naturally shatters within the Deep freeze. Using 3 Ice lances during Deep freeze seems to be just as effective as shattering Frostbolts now, and definitely should be stronger than using Fireblast. I also prefer using Ice lance during Deep freeze since it allows me to move away from my target at the same time.
The answers in this thread have been really helpful, thanks!

So, same question for Fire. My output drops by 1/3 when I go Fire. I understand there is an L2P issue here, that's what I'm trying to solve.

Should I just forget Fire until I can get my crit to 28% buffed? It's obviously possible to have too little crit as Fire, is it possible to have too much?

Edit: My thought was to go Fire for PvE to eliminate pet management and to be more mobile, but with Ice Lance Shatters I'm not sure there's much of a difference in mobility.
The answers in this thread have been really helpful, thanks!

So, same question for Fire. My output drops by 1/3 when I go Fire. I understand there is an L2P issue here, that's what I'm trying to solve.

Should I just forget Fire until I can get my crit to 28% buffed? It's obviously possible to have too little crit as Fire, is it possible to have too much?

Edit: My thought was to go Fire for PvE to eliminate pet management and to be more mobile, but with Ice Lance Shatters I'm not sure there's much of a difference in mobility.


I had success with fire, but there's a lot of trial and error because to get it down to a science requires paying attention and getting the timing just right. You can pull massive damage with Living Bomb, but that's the one that usually requires the timing of spreading immediately because most trash will go down quick and the benefit there is that w/ LB expiration or death of mob procs damage unlike with FBomb where if the target dies before coundown, no explosion which means you usually want to explode it with Inferno Blast as soon as its applied. The same can be said for Nether Tempest because a dead mob would mean less arcane jumping around so you would want to spread that quick as well. No matter what spec you're in though the baseline shatter is what we're all trying to capitalize on and that will always require good timing or just good luck if you're not (like me) attentive sometimes.

I reached close to 23 percent crit in fire, but not quite there. There is such a thing as too much crit, but its not an abundance, it would just be a waste. Rreaching 23 percent if you have a guaranteed crit raid buff of 5% would net you a guaranteed 100 percent from Shatter. Solo, you would need to hit 28 percent to guarantee 100 percent from shatter. So anything above 28 percent is "too much" in the sense that you would be wasting valued stat points when they could be redirected into mastery (for fire) or haste (for arcane).

Because fire is very crit (RNG) dependent I would say, if your concern is numbers and you can't hit 23 or 28 percent crit, frost and arcane will net you some pretty good dps in the interim. The shatter passive in fire will give you much more control over crit strings in conjunction with the guaranteed crit from Inferno Blast, but even if you hit your crit mark you would still need to manage your shatters for guarantees, meaning keeping ice ward on the tank at all times:

#showtooltip Ice Ward
/cast [@focus,exists][@target] Ice Ward
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

set your tank as focus and refresh Ice Ward off CD every time for consistent frozen mobs and subsequent shatters. Without a focus set you will have to target something to cast it on. And of course there's always the option of just hitting Alt to cast on self.

As for your last thought on Pet Management, you will only really be using your pet's Freeze ability. To truly eliminate pet management you can Glyph for Glyph of Water Elemental which will grant your pet the ability to cast while moving, stay near you when in assist mode, and give it more health. Additionally:

#showtooltip
/targetenemy [dead][noharm]
/cast Presence of Mind
/use 10
/cast Frostbolt
/cast Frost Bomb
/cast Freeze

If you're using Presence of Mind, otherwise insert Ice Floes (use a separate spell key for Scorch)
Also, /use 10 is reserved for gloves tinkered with Synapse Springs or other tinkers. If you're not an engineer you can remove that line.

The idea here is to incorporate your pet's freeze ability into your nuke rotation. With your cursor over the mob when the Freeze CD is close to finishing you will see the placement circle appear and you can cast Freeze WHILE casting Frostbolt and it will not interfere with your DPS. Furthermore, you work Frost Bomb into your rotation to reset every CD so your rotation includes Frost Bomb and a spamming of Frostbolt until reset (reset based on haste).
There's a lot of debate as to which site has the best information, but I like to grab a little bit from Noxxic and Icy Veins. Granted all of this information should be used as a foundation for experimentation because sims aren't always fully accurate and these guys get most of their information from sims with a small percentage coming from experience. In my experience with each spec so far I'm really liking frost for both the numbers and utility in both PvE and PvP. I'm really glad they've made it more viable in PvE because I used to love running dungeons in Wrath as frost... but it wasn't so poular and I wasn't a number cruncher back then so one could imagine I sucked... plus back in Wrath was when I was a noob. :P

Anyway, for those who may not already know where to find this stuff,

http://www.noxxic.com/wow
http://www.icy-veins.com/classes-wow

and for reforging I like to use http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear
What I'm using (given the best-case scenario, so its usually a bit different in PvP)

(Requires the Deep Freeze glyph)

Frost Bomb
Frostbolt, and just before it is released, pet Freeze (frostbolt will use shatter)
Deep Freeze while previous FB is in the air (requires glyph to be off the GCD)
Frostbolt (shatter)
Frostbolt + Ice lance (shatter)
Frostbomb goes off before the lance (shatter)
Deep Freeze ends
Frostfire Bolt (with Brain Freeze procs, so acts like its frozen)

Basically you can get off 3 frostbolts, 1 ice lance, Frostbomb, and Frostfire bolt, all on a giant shatter combo. Most normal mobs will die after the Frostbomb goes off, and before the Ice lance. Haven't tested if it gets higher numbers by just spamming Ice Lance instead of Frostbolts.
The benefit of Ice Lance over Frostbolt in most scenarios is that you can glyph for two for added dmg, its instant cast, FoF makes it quadruple dmg, and shatter doubles the quad dmg with crit. Because its spammable, you're more likely to get more burst out of Ice Lance on the heels of a pet freez/FoF during a bomb explosion and simultaneous shatter. It sounds like you're talking about single target or low target numbers outside of dungeons though so your method actually makes a lot of sense given that you have the benefit of Deep Freeze for stun/kiting that does not break on dmg which allows for more shatter damage in those few seconds to drop them like a sack of potatoes :D
#showtooltip
/targetenemy [dead][noharm]
/cast Presence of Mind
/use 10
/castsequence reset=9 Frost Bomb, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt, Frostbolt
/cast Freeze

If you're using Presence of Mind, otherwise insert Ice Floes (use a separate spell key for Scorch)
Also, /use 10 is reserved for gloves tinkered with Synapse Springs or other tinkers. If you're not an engineer you can remove that line.

The idea here is to incorporate your pet's freeze ability into your nuke rotation. With your cursor over the mob when the Freeze CD is close to finishing you will see the placement circle appear and you can cast Freeze WHILE casting Frostbolt and it will not interfere with your DPS. Furthermore, you work Frost Bomb into your rotation to reset every CD so your rotation includes Frost Bomb and a spamming of Frostbolt until reset (reset based on haste).


The rest of your post was solid, but this part has a GLARING problem. Castsequence reset=x conditionals don't trigger x seconds from when the macro was first pressed, they trigger x seconds from when the macro was LAST pressed. Using that macro would delay Frost Bomb every time if you did anything else (IL, BF FFB, etc). Also, as you stated Haste lowers the Frost Bomb cooldown, so during Bloodlust you'd lose even more.

Take out that castsequence, put Frost Bomb on its own key, and you'll be even better off.

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