Considerably reduce jab mana cost

Monk
So I can play as mistweaver properly. That is all, thank you.
10/01/2012 08:09 AMPosted by Fubukii
So I can play as mistweaver properly. That is all, thank you.


I agree that it needs to be adjusted or give give us another Chi Heal.
Its cost is based around the fact that it generates a Chi, which is basically currency for "free" heals which once consumed are a powerful mana regen tool. They won't be adjusting the mana cost.

Use Jab sparingly. We're not intended to go full-throttle Jab-Jab-BoK, Jab-Jab-BoK. There may be times where we do a bunch of that, but when you're melee-weaving never forget to hit RM every 8 sec, and use EH whenever it's off cooldown and you yourself need a heal. Your statue should be down too, to increase the Eminence healing you're doing, which reduces the amount of BoK you need to do (and hence the amt of Chi you need to generate to heal the low-incoming damage phases where we use melee-weaving).

Finally, be sure to use your Mana Tea wisely. Never allow it to "cap" (unless you're full on mana anyway); if you glyph it, use it on cooldown. If you don't glyph it, always be on the lookout for moments here and there where you can sip a few stacks (or a bunch of stacks).

10/01/2012 08:11 AMPosted by Momofuko
So I can play as mistweaver properly. That is all, thank you.


I agree that it needs to be adjusted or give give us another Chi Heal.


We have numbers of Chi heals! BoK for melee-weaving (as well as TP, though it's not as important as BoK), your level 30 talent, and never forget EM. It's an amazing Chi dump and does amazing single-target healing; stop melee-weaving long enough to start a Soothing Mist channel so you can get the instant-cast EM to dump your Chi. Also keep in mind that while EM is ticking on a player, any further SoM you channel to that person gets a 30% buff for the EM duration.
Its cost is based around the fact that it generates a Chi, which is basically currency for "free" heals which once consumed are a powerful mana regen tool. They won't be adjusting the mana cost.

Use Jab sparingly. We're not intended to go full-throttle Jab-Jab-BoK, Jab-Jab-BoK. There may be times where we do a bunch of that, but when you're melee-weaving never forget to hit RM every 8 sec, and use EH whenever it's off cooldown and you yourself need a heal. Your statue should be down too, to increase the Eminence healing you're doing, which reduces the amount of BoK you need to do (and hence the amt of Chi you need to generate to heal the low-incoming damage phases where we use melee-weaving).

Finally, be sure to use your Mana Tea wisely. Never allow it to "cap" (unless you're full on mana anyway); if you glyph it, use it on cooldown. If you don't glyph it, always be on the lookout for moments here and there where you can sip a few stacks (or a bunch of stacks).



I agree that it needs to be adjusted or give give us another Chi Heal.


We have numbers of Chi heals! BoK for melee-weaving (as well as TP, though it's not as important as BoK), your level 30 talent, and never forget EM. It's an amazing Chi dump and does amazing single-target healing; stop melee-weaving long enough to start a Soothing Mist channel so you can get the instant-cast EM to dump your Chi. Also keep in mind that while EM is ticking on a player, any further SoM you channel to that person gets a 30% buff for the EM duration.


Source that we're not intended to use jab a lot as a chi builder? There are major downsides normally to being in melee range vs the relative safety of range, that's enough of a penalty without having jab cost a billion mana. Melee healing is fun and should be more viable. Jab mana cost is the only thing holding it back a lot atm.
Melee healing is very inefficient at the moment.

One should compare it to a Priest's Atonement. Atonement is completely viable and you can spend an entire dungeon run doing almost nothing but spamming your offensive abilities. You throw out a heal or two there, but the majority can come from Atonement.

It should be the same for Mistweavers wanting to heal via melee attacks. It needs to be much more efficient than it is. To get simply get 4 Chi from Jab takes up 12% of your mana pool. 15% if you have 5 Chi. That's downright ridiculous.
I have no issues with it...your mana isnt supposed to be topped off at the end of a fight, have enough spirit no problems...
http://www.temerityofwindrunner.com/mistweaver/calc.html

Jab's hps and hpm is fine when you take the healing done by the chi you generate with it into account. Your base "rotation" when fistweaving should be, in descending priority:

1)ReM on cooldown
2)Glyphed mana tea on cooldown (should you choose to glyph it, which you probably should)
3)Surging at 5/5VM
4)Jab for chi
5)BoK to keep the buff up (and *only* to keep the buff up, you're not actually gaining HPS by using it over TP when taking VM into account)
6)Tiger palm

Healing like this it takes a while for you to go oom. Obviously you switch gears into soothing/SCK mode as necessary, which hurts your mana a lot more, but pure fistweaving is actually the most sustainable monk healing mode.
Its not meant that we do 100% of our healing from eminence. Nor is it mandatory that we constantly use chi abilities when we're melee'ing. Get more spirit and it might be easier too.
I'm pretty sure unless things drastically changed from the beta you shouldn't be spamming Jab. It's meant to be mana heavy after you get Teachings of the Monastery because of all it does. If all it did was build Chi I'd be more understanding.

Once you learn that and then apply your kit accordingly you should find the mana strain is actually better than ranged and not too bad at all. Keep Serpent's Zeal up and use Tiger Palm more *if* the tank is dipping down or about to (but not enough to need Soothing/Surging), otherwise just enough Tiger Palm to use up Chi rather than lose it. Between that, autoattacks, and the statue procs and ReM you should be solid for most light AoE damage, and SCK and Uplift are there for AoE spikes of course.

Almost forgot about the Mana Tea Glyph too. It's not always so hot during ranged stuff but it's crucial during meleeing to not waste time channeling.
10/01/2012 03:01 PMPosted by Mech
It should be the same for Mistweavers wanting to heal via melee attacks. It needs to be much more efficient than it is. To get simply get 4 Chi from Jab takes up 12% of your mana pool. 15% if you have 5 Chi. That's downright ridiculous.


Jab may cost 3% of your mana pool, but the Chi it generates a) fuels large heals - Blizz cannot overlook how imbalanced Mistweavers would be if we could generate Chi cheaply via Jab in order to fuel EM/unlgyphed Uplift/ZS:D spam, and b) *returns* mana to you when you use Mana Tea appropriately. Thus, Jab will continue to be costly... the same as a Disc priest's PW:S will continue to be costly. No, I'm not making a direct parallel between the healing functions of the two abilities (Jab & PW:S); I'm simply pointing out why the cost is what it is, and why it won't change.
Its cost is based around the fact that it generates a Chi, which is basically currency for "free" heals which once consumed are a powerful mana regen tool. They won't be adjusting the mana cost.

Use Jab sparingly. We're not intended to go full-throttle Jab-Jab-BoK, Jab-Jab-BoK. There may be times where we do a bunch of that, but when you're melee-weaving never forget to hit RM every 8 sec, and use EH whenever it's off cooldown and you yourself need a heal. Your statue should be down too, to increase the Eminence healing you're doing, which reduces the amount of BoK you need to do (and hence the amt of Chi you need to generate to heal the low-incoming damage phases where we use melee-weaving).

Finally, be sure to use your Mana Tea wisely. Never allow it to "cap" (unless you're full on mana anyway); if you glyph it, use it on cooldown. If you don't glyph it, always be on the lookout for moments here and there where you can sip a few stacks (or a bunch of stacks).



I agree that it needs to be adjusted or give give us another Chi Heal.


We have numbers of Chi heals! BoK for melee-weaving (as well as TP, though it's not as important as BoK), your level 30 talent, and never forget EM. It's an amazing Chi dump and does amazing single-target healing; stop melee-weaving long enough to start a Soothing Mist channel so you can get the instant-cast EM to dump your Chi. Also keep in mind that while EM is ticking on a player, any further SoM you channel to that person gets a 30% buff for the EM duration.


The thing is that meleeweaving has no point to it. I can't keep up my party even on trash because of it's insane mana cost to keep up. It's easier and far more efficient to just range heal. Jab needs it's mana cost to be 1/4 of what it is now for meleeweaving to be worth it. Priest's atonement doesn't drain them of their mana in vast amounts. It's mana neutral as our melee healing should be.
The thing is that meleeweaving has no point to it. I can't keep up my party even on trash because of it's insane mana cost to keep up. It's easier and far more efficient to just range heal. Jab needs it's mana cost to be 1/4 of what it is now for meleeweaving to be worth it. Priest's atonement doesn't drain them of their mana in vast amounts. It's mana neutral as our melee healing should be.



Serpent's Zeal autoattacks are mana neutral (possibly mana positive), which heal. Jab builds Chi, procs extra Eminence healing, and procs statue healing too. All of that is either multitarget or smart healing as well, that's nothing to sniff at and would likely be very unbalanced if all of that was "mana neutral". You also lose out on a decent amount of situational utility at range because your interrupt/silence and untalented CC are short range, plus SCK, Jab, Blackout Kick and the like can all be used while silenced or locked out of Mist-type spells.

Not all fights (especially certain trash) are going to favor melee healing. It is up to you to get used to the different mobs and what they do, and figure out what works best until everything is more "common knowledge". Melee healing can be a pain sometimes depending on the mobs but it's certainly not more draining than range *unless* you are spamming Jab, which you should not be doing after the mid 30s.
Jab cost is not gimping me nearly as much as the fact its on the same gcd as soothing mists.

Separate them, that alone would be a start.
Source that we're not intended to use jab a lot as a chi builder?


The mana cost.
I can't work meleeweaving into my rotation. Anytime I try, it just drains me of healing. I'm using mana faster than I'm regen it back while using my Chi. It's just not worth it.

I have 4k in combat regen every 5 seconds right now. My Soothing Mist cost 5k mana over 5 secs. And my jab, which I can use 3 in the amount of 5 secs, uses 18k mana. How is that at all balanced?

Soothing Mist is far more efficient unless I'm missing something vital.
Jab is useless and costs about 4-5x more mana than it should. Not even debatable. There's no method of using jab where it is more efficient than ranged healing. Simply indisputable. Melee healing is sooo much fun, even if it's just to supplement casted heals. Looking forward to seeing a dramatic mana cost reduction on jab.
I can't work meleeweaving into my rotation. Anytime I try, it just drains me of healing. I'm using mana faster than I'm regen it back while using my Chi. It's just not worth it.

I have 4k in combat regen every 5 seconds right now. My Soothing Mist cost 5k mana over 5 secs. And my jab, which I can use 3 in the amount of 5 secs, uses 18k mana. How is that at all balanced?

Soothing Mist is far more efficient unless I'm missing something vital.


Don't do Jabx3 in 5 sec! Totally unneeded :) Don't try to "max your dps" while melee-healing (as much as many people want this to be how monks heal, the reality is that it just IS NOT the way monks heal). If you need 3 Chi in 5 sec, you better need it because there's huge healing to be done, and therefore are switching to casted heals once you get those Chi, for an unglyphed Uplift, or an Enveloping Mist on a single target taking sustained damage.

edit: well, don't do Jabx3 in 5 sec *often*, unless you need the Chi to switch to intensive casted healing ;)
I can't work meleeweaving into my rotation. Anytime I try, it just drains me of healing. I'm using mana faster than I'm regen it back while using my Chi. It's just not worth it.

I have 4k in combat regen every 5 seconds right now. My Soothing Mist cost 5k mana over 5 secs. And my jab, which I can use 3 in the amount of 5 secs, uses 18k mana. How is that at all balanced?

Soothing Mist is far more efficient unless I'm missing something vital.
The key thing is that fistweaving both generates and spends chi faster than mistweaving, which means you're generating mana tea stacks faster. I'm guessing that everyone who's feeling like fist is horribly inefficient isn't using mana tea properly, or just isn't properly thinking about how mana tea works.

Mana tea effectively reduces the cost of chi generators by 1% of total mana (3000 at 90, unless you're a gnome or using the wrong meta) per chi generated. So Jab's actual mana cost at 90 is 6000 mana, not 9000. For comparison, factoring in mana tea's cost makes Soothing effecitvely cost 2250/tick, surging cost 21k/cast, and SCK cost 13.5k/cast.

So going back to your example using level 90 numbers, 3 jabs costs you 27k up front, but 9k of that gets refunded later in the form of tea, so the effective cost is 18k. Since in practice your Jab:Not Jab ratio in fist is closer to 1:1, we'll compare this against 6s of soothing mist at 0 haste, which costs you 18k mana up front, which goes down to 13.5k when you factor in mana tea. Note that even the occasional surging cast (which will inevitably happen when you're soothing unless you're healing trivial content) will tip the mana consumption in fistweaving's favor.

All that said, direct comparison of mist vs. fist is a bit of an apples and oranges thing- they're two different ecosystems of spells that are designed for healing two different kinds of damage. Fistweaving is for damage that's spread out and/or uneven (which soothing/surging is pretty awkward for handling,) mistweaving is for damage that's focused on one person (ie tank damage, which fistweaving is fairly awkward and sub-optimal for.) Meanwhile, SCK/CB is all about situations where the entire raid is stacked up and getting face!@#$ed in glorious unison.
10/01/2012 09:23 PMPosted by Fubukii
Jab is useless and costs about 4-5x more mana than it should. Not even debatable. There's no method of using jab where it is more efficient than ranged healing. Simply indisputable. Melee healing is sooo much fun, even if it's just to supplement casted heals. Looking forward to seeing a dramatic mana cost reduction on jab.
Simply generating chi with jab and spending it with tiger palm, then casting surging when you hit 5/5 VM gets your hpm on par with soothing. Keep the BoK buff up and you exceed it easily.

I'm just going to link this in every mistweaver thread I post in until you guys finally look at it and understand how the math behind this spec works: http://www.temerityofwindrunner.com/mistweaver/calc.html
Jab cost is still fine. I've done multiple fights where I've played with both positions. You shouldn't be jabbing constantly in melee cause it will oom you. Just jab enough to keep your Tiger Palm buff and Serpent's Grace up and let your autoattacks do the rest. Keep ReM up and use uplift. I only go oom if I want to make fun of crappy dps by doing 20k and beating them.

That said, certain fights are perfect for Melee. Raigonn after his carapace is broken. At that point, go for it. Not that that fight is healing intensive anyways.

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