Why we are energy starved.

Rogue
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Wow 12 seconds lol really? Is this real life?!

Seriously, I know we're different classes, but these abilities are basically excactly the same for the two classes but ours is just on a longer cooldown with no chance to make it a shorter cooldown..
Yea in cata 4.3 I use to be a high dps person but at this point my dps is piss poor due to energy concerns. I tried going back and forth with combat and assassination to see which is better but the building up of CPs and energy problems is becoming a pain.
Also, to touch on the PvE side of things.. I'm not fully geared yet, nor have I done anything other than 5 man heroics, but it seems like our damage is much lower than where it should be. I have PvE'd as assassination since wrath, and I have always been someone who my raid considered good dps, someone who played the class well and would top meters on fight that wasn't biased against melee dps. Yet right now I feel like at best I'm middle of the road for damage on single target boss fights. Again, it's just 5 mans and I'm not geared and not enchanted, etc - but I'm playing with people who aren't geared or enchanted either. Plus, I've been through all this before, and I wouldn't even mention it if I thought it was only gear and enchants that were holding me back. Basically I feel that if I switched classes, I'd probably instantly do much better even if my gear was the same level.

So I think even if assassination is the best single target rogue PvE damage spec, it's probably still not good enough. If that's the case, sub is even worse. Combat probably isn't great either but I know in certain fights it is doing 'ok' because of bladeflurry. Overall probably all our specs need a PvE damage buff accross the board. But to confirm this I'd run some tests that I'm sure bliz can easily do in house, but I can't do just because I don't have access to instant gear, enchants, and gems.
Ive been a very active pvp'er since the beginning of TBC, ive stuck it out through all of blizzards changes throughout the years and its been a roller coaster. Right now with the state of rogues in PVP situations I really do agree with Luna's post. I find myself right now in RBG's only being viable for my smokebomb on EFC's and Fan of Knives on flags from the perspective of an RBG leader. I always find myself in the middle of the pack with damage done in both RBG's, Arena's. The separation of Prep and SS is just a killing blow to the rogue in terms of mobility as i have to use prep for mobility rather than defense as i would like to. The energy issue is another thing i would like to mention, i believe the whole thing needs rigorous work done as i am always energy starved and the finishing moves do not feel satisfying when i see damage no where close to anything that would break a warriors second wind or a mages mana shield...ect.
1. We're exactly the same class we were at 85 - excluding a cool down that isn't even on any decent rogue's bar, because it's macro'd in with other more important cool downs.

2. Damage output is too low with each spec, ramp up time is too long with each spec.

3. Energy needs reworked, feels boring. Auto attacking for 5 seconds between mutilates with 7000+ haste isn't fun. Combo point generators do no damage. Seriously - none, mutilate is literally under 20% of our total damage on a boss fight. Off hand auto attacks count for more damage than sinister strike.

4. Our talents are all terrible / boring. Seriously, look at our talents - and then look at another classes. It's unreal how rogue talents made it past beta. Every single last tier talent i could EASILY play without. Also reduce the energy cost on burst of speed..

Writing all of this really makes you realize how terrible the class is currently.
I've played Rogue since Vanilla. I can honestly say, this has been the most disappointing period of time I've played one. I cannot speak on behalf of pvp as I lost all interest in it after season 3 in BC (hated it there forward.)

Now,don't get me wrong, I still love the class. I'm not the "fix it or I am quitting it's so bad" type. I love Rogue, through and through. I'll always play one no matter how good or bad.

I hate to be a trendy follower, but Luna nailed some incredible points and really, nobody can top his post. I'm very indifferent about the talents, energy regen (at the moment,) and shadow blades really isn't all that impressive. Maybe it will be upon getting tier.

My biggest concern is, I HATE, and I really, really mean I HATE Combat. I hate playing it, and I hate even more that I feel I am required to play it because it's just so viable in raid/dungeons with the cleave alone (clearly a bias and opinion.) The most fun I had, interestingly enough, was beginning of Wrath, beginning of Cata, and end of cata when I could play Assassination because it was so smooth and great in damage. To me that IS the rogue class. Not some "swash-buckler" combat pirate... A stealthy, dagger welding, tactile character.

I think a bit of attention is needed upon the rogue class right now. I feel like everyone I talk to loves their class, yet I see more disappointed rogues than anything else. I have to absolutely perfect my rotation to the absolute "T" to be competitive in damage at times (which should be expected, really, but it makes it flustering when others screw up so much and still do so well.)

Just my two cents.
10/05/2012 05:20 PMPosted by Daxxarri
  • What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?


Um.

When I hit Shadow Blades and Adren Rush I can go very very fast? I'm like pow pow pow.

Poison changes are nice I guess but that's more of a QOL thing than an actual gameplay thing.

Luna's done a pretty good write-up, but I'd like to touch on talents. Right now, I'm looking over to other classes. Warlocks can summon a bigger, more brutaltastic pet, TWO pets on a cooldown(and it's 20s/2m, that's pretty tasty) or choose to completely forgo pets. Druids can choose between a great passive effect, a great shapeshift cooldown or a great summon cooldown. Hunters get a rotational ability(at least I think it's rotational? That was the intent, right?), mages get to decide how they get their mana back, and Death Knights get to pick how their runes come back (which they already had, admittedly, but they also get force choooooooke)

Rogues get to... Um... Decide how to minimize damage taken in a raid? Modify an ability that they might use only once on an encounter depending on spec? The most monumental decision a Rogue has to make is which sloppy, basic implementation to minimize the limitations of combo points.

Numbers are numbers, they get tuned, rogues won't be a joke forever- It's the usual patch x.0 blues. But as far as class flavor goes, they haven't grown an inch since the start of WotLK. Unless you count the epic weapons, which while they were very well executed, were kind of a gimmick.
10/05/2012 01:24 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Class forums are places where we want players talking to players, but I heard you guys were a little frustrated.


Hi, Daxx. Thanks a ton for stopping by.

This might not be the best thread for this (my apologies for the derail) but I also think that creating a separate thread would be not the best solution either.

While you stopping in is very much appreciated, I feel that it also represents a flaw in how Blizzard interacts with and communicates with players.

If you look at Beta forums, you'll find that these complaints have been the topic of Rogue discussion for several months. We maxed out at least two threads worth of Rogue feedback; a lot of it was complaining, a TON of it was ideas and brainstorming, and a little bit was focused on what we felt was positive going into the expansion. We were essentially told, "We think you're fine" (the infamous "Rogues are the best designed class" fiasco) and would not be changed.

So my question is, why now? What was the purpose of the Beta if not to receive our feedback? I feel like this could have been avoided. I apologize if this sounds confrontational; mostly I'm just baffled and hope that we can have better experiences in the future.
Also, something else strikes me as strange.

I thought assassination had deadly brew because it was forced into using deadly poison. That way with deadly brew it could also use wound poison and crippling.

I could be wrong about that though.
10/05/2012 01:22 PMPosted by Squirlness
Woah, a blue. I didn't think you guys were allowed on the Rogue forum.


I lol'd.
I really gotta say this

Druids can !@#$ing heal, go bear and tank, vanish with lower CD , make you stop going invi ( which is your MAIN ability), they can also root you in place for 6s and start running while you are there crying, and what do rogues get? %^-*

what the good !@#$ blizzard
Been busy lately and just found this thread and all I have to say is that Luna said it all, though others previously stated the same things along in the thread much before her post I still agree with what was said 100%.

Blue plz post wana hear some input about all of this.
As far as the "like" about rogues in Mists. I like dispatch, it feels appropriate to finally have "now your f***ed" move for when an enemy has low health as a pure dps based assassin class. Esp in PvP (at least at 85). It never felt right having to play a ret paladin or warrior for that kind of move.

Shadowblades is cool but the graphic is really pretty weak compared to the other classes abilities.

I liked the idea of shuriken toss, but so much is melee based I haven't really found a way to use it properly.
I don't really have anything further to add because everyone else, especially Luna, has done an excellent job of summing up what we like + what we don't like. At this point, I'm just really curious to see if we could get any feedback and see what Blizzard's thoughts are.
Combo regeneration is so slow is because you put out great damage with DoTs and heavy burst. I don't mind Energy regeneration being slow because a good chunk of my damage come from DoTs... Deadly Poison, Garrote, Rupture.

I use this...

I open up with Cheapshot, Garrote, and Ambush. Then I use
Kidneyshot Mutilate Rupture Blind...

Then I repeat the cycle until he hits 35%
That is when I start hitting Dispatch and Envenom like mad, to burst him down quickly while vendetta, and I use kick and gouge so that he doesn't cast a heal. Works many times. Even on a Mage. Except on Warriors...

Lvl 88 and it has been working for me so far.

Stop pulling !@#$ out of your %^-. Unless you're playing with a braindead potato, you can't garrote bleed and rupture your way to 35%.


If he is stunlocked the entire time. It works pretty well for me so far. Just give it a try, I swear you won't be disappointed.
Combo regeneration is so slow is because you put out great damage with DoTs and heavy burst. I don't mind Energy regeneration being slow because a good chunk of my damage come from DoTs... Deadly Poison, Garrote, Rupture.

I use this...

I open up with Cheapshot, Garrote, and Ambush. Then I use
Kidneyshot Mutilate Rupture Blind...

Then I repeat the cycle until he hits 35%
That is when I start hitting Dispatch and Envenom like mad, to burst him down quickly while vendetta, and I use kick and gouge so that he doesn't cast a heal. Works many times. Even on a Mage. Except on Warriors...

Lvl 88 and it has been working for me so far.

Stop pulling !@#$ out of your %^-. Unless you're playing with a braindead potato, you can't garrote bleed and rupture your way to 35%.


If he is stunlocked the entire time. It works pretty well for me so far. Just give it a try, I swear you won't be disappointed.

10/06/2012 04:47 AMPosted by Draúka
also we die in 1 stun that we cant get out of rogue surv sucks alot atm energy starved is a huge problem also its redic we cant even do much of any damage we stare at cds 90% of the time and rogues are starting to lose that fun feeling change somthing blizzard!


You shouldn't be dying in one stun. Do you have enough resilience. and health? Not to mention we have abilities like Recoup and Feint, are both great to use, though the Energy cost for feint is a bit steep, and you have to learn to put it in your rotation.
10/06/2012 09:08 AMPosted by Syfix
rogues are always the ones to make qq threads when nerfed
We weren't nerfed. We were revamped. I like the Revamp, VANILLA WOW STUNLOCK ROGUES ARE BACK!!!

Stop pulling !@#$ out of your %^-. Unless you're playing with a braindead potato, you can't garrote bleed and rupture your way to 35%.


If he is stunlocked the entire time. It works pretty well for me so far. Just give it a try, I swear you won't be disappointed.

10/06/2012 04:47 AMPosted by Draúka
also we die in 1 stun that we cant get out of rogue surv sucks alot atm energy starved is a huge problem also its redic we cant even do much of any damage we stare at cds 90% of the time and rogues are starting to lose that fun feeling change somthing blizzard!


You shouldn't be dying in one stun. Do you have enough resilience. and health? Not to mention we have abilities like Recoup and Feint, are both great to use, though the Energy cost for feint is a bit steep, and you have to learn to put it in your rotation.

I honestly hope you're trolling. I really really do.


If he is stunlocked the entire time. It works pretty well for me so far. Just give it a try, I swear you won't be disappointed.



You shouldn't be dying in one stun. Do you have enough resilience. and health? Not to mention we have abilities like Recoup and Feint, are both great to use, though the Energy cost for feint is a bit steep, and you have to learn to put it in your rotation.

I honestly hope you're trolling. I really really do.


No,

Y U NO USE FEINT?

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