Why we are energy starved.

Rogue
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I just dont know how i havent reroled yet... i mean even Reckful did lol
Because I'm passionate about this, I dug up my post about rogue abilities being skewed towards PvP from the beta forums. The info is a little out of date now (nightstalker shouldn't be on the list, and prey on the weak should), but the main point remains accurate.

Warning: long thread. TL;DR at the bottom.

So, there's a lot of complaints going around about rogues in MoP, and some of us, including myself, have gotten a bit caught up in QQ and trash-talking the devs. But I'd like to try and get back to some more constructive criticism and focus on one issue that's really bugging me.

My main issue with rogues in MoP is that there's no "wow" factor. I feel I don't have a lot of cool or dramatic abilities, especially when it comes to utility. But it's not that rogues don't have good abilities and utility; it's just that all our cool toys are only useful in PvP, and as a PvE player, this does me no good at all.

To illustrate my point, I've prepared a list of abilities I feel qualify as PvP-only. Some of these can be used in PvE, but so rarely that I could literally count on one hand how often it's happened. Others are completely useless. I want to say that I feel I am being very generous in what can be considered useful in PvE. For instance, I consider leeching poison a perfectly good PvE talent. Helping the healer is always good. Also note that I am discounting questing for the purposes of the exercise -- pretty much anything is useful in questing with enough creativity. I am, however, considering normal and heroic dungeons as well as raids.

Anyway, the list:
Gouge (never used -- not on my action bar)
Cheap shot
Kidney shot
Evasion
Detect traps
Disarm trap
Blind
Dismantle (never used -- not on my action bar)
Deadly throw (never used this once in my entire WoW career)
Combat readiness (never used -- only on my bar because it looks pretty)
Smoke bomb (never used -- not on my action bar)
Wound poison
Mind-numbing poison

In MoP, we can add paralytic poison, shroud of concealment, nerve strike, dirty tricks, and nightstalker.

That's a lot, but every class has PvP-only abilities, right? True, but for comparison, I looked over the ability lists for two other classes I play, mage and paladin. These are their abilities I very rarely or never use in PvE:

Mage (frost/fire perspective):
Frost nova
Cone of cold
Ice armor

In MoP, we add to this deep freeze (I believe it not longer damages), ice ward, and blazing speed.

Paladin (prot/holy perspective):
Hand of freedom
Turn evil
Seal of justice (arguably usable, but I've never used it)

In MoP, we add clemency. Arguably, burden of guilt might also qualify. But in that case, crippling poison should be added to the rogue list.

As you can see, there is a very obvious bias towards PvP in rogue abilities compared to those of other classes. The end result is it feels like I'm playing half a class. I love my rotation, but all I have is a rotation. It doesn't feel like a complete class like, say, my paladin does.

Solutions:

The good news, though, is that this is a problem that I think would be relatively easy to fix. I don't expect Blizzard to come out with a huge number of new PvE utilities for rogues. But with a few small tweaks, some of our abilities could be made worthwhile in PvE.

I think glyphs would be an easy way to accomplish this. For example:

Glyph of sudden concealment: Shroud of concealment can be cast in combat, but its cooldown is doubled.

Glyph of protective smoke: Your smoke bomb no longer affects line of sight. Instead, it provides 5% damage reduction to all friendly targets in its area of effect for the duration.

Boom. PvE rogues gained two flavourful, useful abilities, hopefully without imbalancing PvP.

Of course, those are just examples, but you get the idea.

TL;DR: Rogue abilities are horribly skewed towards PvP compared to those of other classes. Please implement some minor tweaks to make some of the relevant in PvE.


Link to thread: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5589547580?page=1

I hope Blizzard will not interpret this as "grass as greener." I'm just sharing my experiences as someone who plays a lot of classes as opposed to rogues exclusively. And frankly, sometimes the grass really is greener on the other side.
You are right, All the way right. I love rogues and feel like crying like a kid because of what we are right now. I believe in Blizzard but am scared of them maybe not giving a chip and leave us as we are. If Blizz can check what you just said + alot of stuff that has been said on this Thread. it would be really appreciated because alot of creative and open minded ppl comment here. I love that.
And Blizzard said it itself, I remember reading this somewhere, '' we want to make the classes feel strong like heros'' Example: DKs with relentless Winter. It feels Godly like the Lich King does in one of the WOTLK dungeons! Halls of reflection. What is the point of saying this and nerfing rogues. We feel weaker than we were. :(

---Bricke also says real stuff Above^ ----PAGE 9.
Just thought I'd add something more that I liked and that would be the mounting animation with 2 fist weapons equipped.
Just for the record, I'm still monitoring this thread.

Note: Please don't be vulgar, hyperbolic, draw the discussion off-topic, violate the forum code of conduct, or otherwise disrupt this potentially very constructive thread. These things will make me sad. I do not want to be sad. None of us want to be sad. No sads.

Speaking of follow-up questions:

  • What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?

I kinda dislike the fact you are bringing this up when there were countless threads in the MoP Beta Forums about rogues and what wasn't working and what was.

There isn't much i like right now other than I've played the class since toward the end vanilla. Shadow blades is a nice CD, but it's another long cooldown.

A week into 90, I see that energy regen is horrible for combat and assassination. I was assassination to start heroics to get geared, but i feel i was auto attacking 90% when i pooled energy to do anything. Mutilate energy cost needs to be dropped considerably, like 35 or 40 energy.

Combat is alright, but again, energy regen sucks. SnD should be 45 secs at 5 combo points, or I wish you guys didnt remove the glyph that increased the duration. To what the OP said, i agree with finishers should be based on combo points instead of both combo and energy.

I would like to see some reduction in CD times for our abilities. For PvP vanish on a 3 min cooldown is long, 2 mins is nice. Same with shadowstep, 24 seconds for a gap closer? Blink and charge so the same and are on a much lower cooldown, 13-16 seconds would be good. Shadow blade i would like to see on a 2 min timer, but it isn't a real big deal.

One more thing i can suggest, maybe make Energetic Recovery baseline for all specs? And maybe give 10 energy per 2 to subtlety to compensate for giving it to all classes, or change the numbers to help with energy regen.
10/08/2012 06:19 PMPosted by Maigraith
In terms of theme Combat needs to go back to being a Swashbuckler spec. No Riposte, extra parry, dodge, Unfair Advantage, Nerves of Steel, 2 minute endurance, etc.


I would kill to get riposte and unfair advantage back.

The fact that monks get a passive that's basically unfair advantage (on top of pretty much everything else rogues ever asked for) makes me feel like Blizzard is just trolling me. :(


I feel like this a lot. Monks got a ton of very rogue-feeling things, and we ended up getting scrambled up a bit and left disheveled. "You want to be an amazing ninja? HAHA TOO BAD FAT PANDA IS NINJA"

I think one of the problems with Riposte and reactive attacks is that they don't work very well when you're not solo anymore. When the mobs are paying attention to the tank, the rogue (or any DPS) isn't really in a position to be really interacting with them so much as just beating on them. For PVP of course that's a totally different matter.

It's hard to be a swashbuckler in a raid, as awesome as the image is.
Direct Ghostcrawler quotes before MOP went Live.

06/13/2012 07:46 PMPosted by Ghostcrawler
Rogues are in a pretty good place in Cataclysm in both PvE and PvP. We don't see a lot of huge glaring problems that need to be fixed.


Then why did crit, energy, damage, and overall quality of life get shredded to pieces in MOP?

06/13/2012 07:46 PMPosted by Ghostcrawler
We try really hard not to change classes for the sake of change. It's hard. But we try.


^ This has been a complete Lie.

06/13/2012 07:46 PMPosted by Ghostcrawler
I'd go as far to say that most of the class team would probably agree (and I didn't poll them, so I may be sticking my neck out) that the rogue is the best designed class.


Is this why we just received the worst nerfing in World of Warcraft history?
I will stick to my rogue....it's been my main for years, :).

Hate the state we are in atm though.
Direct Ghostcrawler quotes before MOP went Live.

Rogues are in a pretty good place in Cataclysm in both PvE and PvP. We don't see a lot of huge glaring problems that need to be fixed.


Then why did crit, energy, damage, and overall quality of life get shredded to pieces in MOP?

We try really hard not to change classes for the sake of change. It's hard. But we try.


^ This has been a complete Lie.

I'd go as far to say that most of the class team would probably agree (and I didn't poll them, so I may be sticking my neck out) that the rogue is the best designed class.


Is this why we just received the worst nerfing in World of Warcraft history?


YOU GOOD SIR have found the actual blues ive been sputing here all night and i love you for it
Anyway, the list:
Gouge (never used -- not on my action bar)
Cheap shot
Kidney shot
Evasion
Detect traps
Disarm trap
Blind
Dismantle (never used -- not on my action bar)
Deadly throw (never used this once in my entire WoW career)
Combat readiness (never used -- only on my bar because it looks pretty)
Smoke bomb (never used -- not on my action bar)
Wound poison
Mind-numbing poison

wow really? this isn't a case of rogues being "skewed towards pvp" this is a case of you being absolutely 1 track mind and being a middle of the pack player IMO. Even in raids, i used cheap shot kidney shot dismantle deadly throw (when im sitting there and theres nothing else to do may as well) combat readiness (you've never had to tank a mob cos the tank JUST died at the very end? that NEVER happens for you?! right.) AND YOU DONT HAVE SMOKE BOMB ON YOUR BARS?! holy crap.
Shadowblades is neat, it's kinda nice to be able to double my combo point generation when I'm about to die from adds I wasn't expecting.

Hate what poisons have become though. Having one useful, and one useless poison up at all times is annoying. Leeching poison doesn't really seem like it's worth it to me so far, but all I've done is quest so I can't say how it performs in raids. I understand you wanted to make poisons into a spell for conveniences sake, and that's fine. But I think you guys were fixing a problem that didn't exist, and creating discomfort for people who understood how to, or had a methodology for, combining poisons.

Tired of shadowstepping to a target and falling through the ground then being disconnected, and teleported somewhere away from where I was.

This is probably just me, but I want the old energy bar back. The one that went from full, to empty, to full like a graphic for a bass readout. Not the gradual incline thing.

I wanted to try out combat, but I'm waiting to get a hold of some swords. Seems like there aren't any agility swords anymore?

A lot of people made a lot of good points. I'm just adding my own two cents, and wondering why Ghostcrawler still has a job. Sorry, but someone added him commenting on things to the thread and I react that way every time I hear him speak.
i second that i want the old energy bar back also

leeching poison works about as well in raids as your experiences have already shown you

and i completly agree about your ghostcrawler comment
I feel like Blizz may have tweaked with Energy a bit, I noticed my energy isn't as bad with S&D up.

I doubt we will get the overhaul we need, but every little bit would help.

EDIT: since S&D doesn't effect energy tooltip it's hard to tell. I could just be crazy.
I loved the rogue class in BC, WotLK and Cata because rogues were a fun, fast paced, demanding, and exciting class to play. Now the class feels like its slow and clunky, cumbersome, and uninteresting.

I feel like this is due a combination of many small issues to the class, but the biggest one being that Prep is a talent choice rather than being baseline like other classes version of prep. I also feel like its the long cool downs on a couple of our core abilities.

Also I dislike the slow hitting offhand. I loved how rogues could stab at a very fast "pew pew" pace instead of all this slow auto attacking in between waiting for our energy to pool.

I also want to share what I think about our talent tree.

First Tier.
I love the choice between Subterfuge and Shadow Focus, but Nightstalker is very lack lustre and I doubt if anyone would ever pick it considering how cool the other 2 talents are.

2nd Tier
Combat Readiness is mandatory in PvP with how little survivability we have against other melee right now and is superior to the other 2 talents. Deadly Throw is good (casters) but its up against Combat Readiness which we must have unless your facing full caster team. Nerve Strike is very situational and will never see much use outside leveling/dailies.

3rd Tier
This is a good tier and I like all three talents here and can see a good use for all of them.

4th Tier
Putting Prep and ShS on the same tier is what has killed this class the most for me. Prep should be baseline like other classes version of it and an interesting mobility mechanic would be nice in its place making BoS, ShS and <insert another cool mobility talent here> a tough choice to chose between, making this tier our mobility tier.

Currently I think BoS and ShS on the same tier is really cool and I can see the value of choosing either one of these but prep does not belong here. Also BoS is very energy intensive but I do understand that this a very powerful ability that needs an appropriate cost to it. It just seems like every time you need it is when you don't have the energy for it.

5th
Another solid tier and I like all of these options.

6th
Shuriken Toss is average but it doesn't feel like a lvl 90 talent and is actually quite boring standing around or kiting things spamming it. If i wanted to spam range I would have rolled a caster class. As a rogue I want the means to get on my target and temporarily stick to my target to apply some damage and than get out quickly when the kitten hits the fan, not stand around spamming shurikens all day or kite bleeding them with ruptures and garrotes.

I like Anticipation and Versatility but,

I hate the poor implementation of Versatility. It feels really clunky with a GCD and having to apply it every time you swap. Which wouldnt be so bad if it had no GCD. It needs to be seamless and quick, allowing the rogue to get on with his business without having to wait for the GCD to start doing anything.

I really like shadow walk, but it needs an animation, and I really like shroud of concealment. Both very useful tools.

I don't like Shadow Blades as it is a long cool down auto attack damage buff. It does great damage, but I feel like our damage is currently balanced around this ability to heavily. I personally would like to see it removed. We don't really need a 3 min burst CD when you could make backstab, ambush, hemo etc decent again, and in its place add something else.
Remove the energy regen from venomous wounds and put it on Slice and Dice for Assasination rogues, u cant have Rupture or garrote always up and when ur fighthing AoE is terrible plus the fact that Slice and dice last longer and stack on the rogue not on the target will make the energy regen problem for Assasination rogues easier and why not Combat and subtently?

Also you guys can make abilities like Kick, Blind, dismantle etc have no energy cost this would help alot too while is not exagerated since abilities like these only cost 15 or 25 energy.
rogues are horrible
As others have said already, the combo point system is clunky. It either needs to change in to a holy power like system, or redirect needs to come off the global cooldown, so I can macro it in to every attack. Instance trash is a nightmare for building combo points, and I really shouldn't need to redirect every damn time.

Damage output is mediocre at best, comparatively, considering we're a squishy 3/3 dps class.

AoE is mediocre, mainly because of energy regen, and the aforementioned combo point issues.

Control in pvp is absolute garbage compared to almost any other class.

Survivability is terrible, if you take in to account the lackluster damage output, and lack of control.

Compare rogues to just the other 3/3 damage classes. Hunters, mages, and warlocks all have us beat on single target, aoe, survivability, and control. At least, that's the way it seems to me.
Rogue has been my main since vanilla.

I personally enjoy a good challenge.

Seriously though, give us damage or give us mobility. We cannot contend without either.

Why would you displace our damage to less burst (in what seems to be the most boring way you could think of btw), and then also reduce our mobility?

When we have to face other competent players we are squishy sitting ducks.

Lastly, I hate to make class comparisons, but even bad mages literally /lol at me in BGs while backpedaling
Remove the energy regen from venomous wounds and put it on Slice and Dice for Assasination rogues, u cant have Rupture or garrote always up and when ur fighthing AoE is terrible plus the fact that Slice and dice last longer and stack on the rogue not on the target will make the energy regen problem for Assasination rogues easier and why not Combat and subtently?

Also you guys can make abilities like Kick, Blind, dismantle etc have no energy cost this would help alot too while is not exagerated since abilities like these only cost 15 or 25 energy.

No, that's a terrible idea. That'll just make sub and Mut even more similar.

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