Why we are energy starved.

Rogue
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Well Blizz really does think the rogue mechanics are very well designed. That's why they give improved versions of it to other classes. I assume they don't improve the rogue version because it's 'good' enough and gets the job done. It is frustrating that other classes get better versions of our mechanics.

I posted earlier that I was puzzled why at the end of Wrath, Blizz acknowledged that rogue's reliance on passive damage and CDs was a problem and they haven't done anything about it. I now suspect that at the end of Wrath, monks were early in the design phase and it was decided that they would use rogue mechanics as the baseline for the monk's mechanics. So basically they got the improvements that Blizz said rogues needed. To keep the mechanics 'different' from each other they decided to keep rogue mechanics as is. So basically, their decision to add a monk class screwed us over. :P
Expose Armor feels hard to use. It was hard to use as a finisher, it is hard to use as a generator. Why can't it be a proc? If one of our moves hits, it should trigger expose armor. I think the only proc we've ever had was the dispatch one.


Would love to see Expose Armor and Revealing Strike reworked together into a single ability with a proc (colossus smash meets dispatch)
This is my 5th or 6th post here. huh, I got full PvP geared now, and since im done and really tired of getting rocked, I am leveling my Druid as feral cuz I love stealthy stuff u know. And I realised that at lvl 40, we get Venomous Wounds, which is almost like Deadly Brew, I would like to propose another 4 pvp set pieces effect to be different and just add Deadly Brew to something else, like the Specialisation
10/08/2012 11:54 AMPosted by Hexin
This is so pathetic. They got all the feedback they ever wanted in Beta and ignored it and told us rogues are fine at 90. Stop asking players for feedback and go read it on the Beta forums. Its still the same and its still there.


^This.
I posted earlier that I was puzzled why at the end of Wrath, Blizz acknowledged that rogue's reliance on passive damage and CDs was a problem and they haven't done anything about it. I now suspect that at the end of Wrath, monks were early in the design phase and it was decided that they would use rogue mechanics as the baseline for the monk's mechanics. So basically they got the improvements that Blizz said rogues needed. To keep the mechanics 'different' from each other they decided to keep rogue mechanics as is. So basically, their decision to add a monk class screwed us over. :P


I somehow doubt that monks were already planned way back then, but I do agree that monks basically feel like the sum of all the improvements rogues ever wanted for our class (Rogues 2.0, essentially), and I'm desperately worried that rogues won't get the fixes we need out of a desire to not homogenize the classes further.

10/10/2012 06:23 PMPosted by Narlic
Would love to see Expose Armor and Revealing Strike reworked together into a single ability with a proc (colossus smash meets dispatch)


I've wanted combat to get a proc forever. Fits our feel perfectly.

In fact, one of my suggestions on the beta forum was to bring back riposte as a proc that greatly increases the damage of your next revealing strike, triggered from melee crits or parries.
Hi, I'm Luna. I raid with Refined, currently ranked #14 worldwide for 25 man raiding. In previous tiers I have held multiple rank 1, top ten, and 95th percentile rankings throughout the world for rogues in multiple encounters. I feel like I can give a good overview on general class problems and then spec specific problems for my two specs, Assassination and Combat.

General class overview:

1. First and foremost, our single target damage across the board is low. At our best we are mid pack, at our worst we are barely above the non-vengeance tank. This is the single biggest problem with the class, everything else is minor in relation to simply being a viable class to bring to a raid. I believe that right now I am a liability to my raid because I am not able to compete with half of the other classes. I have had the thought before that, if I was my raid leader, I would be benching both myself and the other rogue who is part of our raiding core for just about any other class.

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2. I feel like Blade Flurry should be a rogue ability for all specs, and not just limited to Combat. The ability cannot be balanced to be equal to the other two specs because it is so powerful; if you are a competitive raider and there is a cleave opportunity, you will ALWAYS be forced to spec Combat. Maybe it would require a rebalancing of some sort for the entire class, but if there is ever to truly be a choice in what spec we play for raiding Blade Flurry must be a class wide ability or be removed.

It really sucks that right now, I want to try PVPing are sub more often but I can't because I need to keep a Combat spec for a couple bosses in this tier and for doing dailies. Combat doesn't suffer from energy regeneration problems right now as much as Assassination does, so its ability to mow down similarly levelled mobs with Blade Flurry and cooldowns make it far superior to both other specs for general PVE and dungeons.

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3. Energy regeneration for Sub and Assassination are not good, and it actually makes me feel frustrated to play the specs when I am literally waiting 5 seconds between attacks. I have more experience with Assassination than Sub currently, and I am sure that the developer team is aware that Assassination is regarded as the highest single target DPS spec right now. I am not sure that they are aware of how long we're waiting between combo builders and finishers as Assassination. It doesn't feel like the finishers are exciting enough in terms of damage or buildup; having to wait too long between reaching 5 combo points and using Envenom doesn't feel rewarding, it feels like an intermediary step between building combo points again.

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4. I don't feel like there is enough difference between the specs in terms of playstyle. All of the specs play the exact same, where we use a generic combo point builder, get to 5 combo points, and use a finisher that either stuns or does damage.

I realize that there is a similiarity in how each damage spec plays for each class, but it is obvious when you watch a mage what spec he is playing. They apply their damage and control in different ways and that's what makes the class so versatile and different depending on what spec you're playing. If you watch a rogue in PVE or PVP he is doing the exact same thing no matter what spec he is, because our class abilities which generate combo points literally have no other effect than to lead to finishers.

Mutilate, Dispatch, Sinister Strike, Hemo and Backstab are literally interchangeable. I feel that the ONLY difference in the way that the specs play differently and deal damage are as follows:

Assassination: Slow ramp up, must use 2 finishers to start dealing noticable damage.
Combat: Can cleave.
Subtlety: Must be behind the target to use your best combo point builder.


Outside of those three very subtle differences in playstyle, a rogue can literally do the exact same thing as any spec and there will be no difference in the way that your gameplay is altered.

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5. Our talent tree choices are not fun. When I play my alt Paladin, DK, Priest or Mage, I look at their talent trees and feel like the talent overhaul has added options and gameplay to each talent tier.

When I look at my rogues talents, I see a choice between two or three options that I innately had before. I feel like the talent overhaul for rogues is a complete failure because it did not add significant gameplay differences (outside of Prep/Step) depending on what choice you had made for each talent, it literally took away your previous choices and made you choose between them. We did not get any viable new or fun abilities or functionality out of the overhaul other than Anticipation.

Shuriken Toss is not a good talent, I honestly do not see myself ever taking it because our ranged damage with it is still so lackluster that it can't make up for the fact that we are not able to use our main damage dealing or utility abilities to our target.

Versatility seems like a band aid to the rogue class. It does not feel worthy of a level 90 talent to me at all, especially in the face of Anticipation which completely changes the way multiple specs operate. I know the developers have said that they believe that the combo point transfer limitations are a part of the "spice" of playing a rogue, but none of my other characters have their resources drained for switching targets. I wholeheartedly believe that this talent should be baseline for the class.

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Assassination:

1. The energy regeneration for the spec right now is terrible. It's always been slow at the start of expansions, but it is especially bad right now. Waiting so long between using attacks is not fun.

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2. Auto attack damage and poison damage is making up too large of a total percentage of our damage. On our kill of Fend the Accursed, which is very close to a Patchwerk fight, auto attacks and poisons alone did about 60% of my total damage by themselves. There is timing involved in using finishers and that adds a layer of complexity and a way to differentiate between player skills, but there isn't much difference between a good, great or amazing Assassination rogue when only 40% of your damage can be changed by a player's involvement at all.

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3. Due to the above, Mastery will remain far and away the best secondary stat for Assassination as long as so much of our damage comes from automatically applied damage. Haste and crit will never begin to approach the power of Mastery for this spec, and moreso than before, future gearing in raids will revolve around which pieces have Mastery innately and which do not. Pieces without Mastery will not be viable for the spec and we may be forced to use older gear.

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Combat:

1. The biggest complaint I have about Combat is that its single target damage in raiding scenarios is not up to par. If not for the existence of Blade Flurry, the damage would be so subpar compared to Assassination and Subtlety that we would not spec it at all for raids.

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2. The spec is way, way too dependant on cooldowns. Someone in this thread put it so succinctly earlier that I have to repeat; it feels amazing when all of your cooldowns are up, but it sucks to know your damage is horrid as you're waiting for your cooldowns to run down.

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3. All that said, in general PVE, whether it be questing, grinding, or doing dungeons, the playstyle of the spec feels good. Energy regeneration is a tad low, especially when Blade Flurry is up, but in general the spec is good at delivering quick damage to multiple targets and has two cooldowns which work well. I say two cooldowns, because Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Blades are macroed together to do good burst damage. Killing Spree is the other.

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PVP:

I am a big proponent of random and rated battlegrounds. I have well over 100,000 honorable kills earned on my rogue alone, Battlemaster, Conqueror, 2200 RBG rating. I love doing battleground PVP and that is the focus of my PVP experience.

My experience of level 90 PVP in battlegrounds and duels can be summed up as: outmanuevered, outdamaged, outlasted.

1. Every single class has much more mobility than rogues right now. Our mobility without Shadowstep is horrible. Burst of Speed costs too much energy to be usable. Even with Shadowstep, the lack of Preparation for double Vanish or double Sprint makes us extremely vulnerable to roots and snares. Many classes can literally run circles around us.

2. I don't feel like we do enough damage, our yellow attacks as Assassination and especially Subtlety do not hit hard enough for the amount of resource that we are using. I am having an extremely hard time killing almost anything, and when I do not crit on my yellow attacks I do not feel like my abilities are doing anything at all.

3.When I am PVPing against several different classes, I feel like they are doing way too much damage in relation to how much damage I can do back to them. Having Preparation definitely helps, but it still leads to two problems. The first being the disparity between our survivability when our cooldowns are up and when they are not, and the second being a complete lack of mobility in all cases. If we are specced into Preparation we must use our valuable defensive cooldowns, Preparation, Vanish, Cloak of Shadows and Sprint to actually catch many classes; and the net effect is that if we catch them it is only for a few seconds, and our defensive cooldowns are not usable because we have already applied many or most of them just to catch up to the target in the first place.

In summary I feel like the problem with rogue PVP, aside from general damage which can be fixed, is the seperation of Prep and Step. The two synergized really well where we could get to our targets, have a good uptime, and have enough cooldowns to be able to have a competitive chance to play well against them.

The opposite is the reality now, without both abilities there is no synergy which allows us to do this. Either we are extremely vulnerable to roots and kiting without the ability to catch our opponents, using several cooldowns to attain low uptime or we are able to catch them but unable to fight competitively because of the differences in base damage and lack of cooldowns.

I don't understand why the developers have picked these two incredibly awesome talents to pit against each other as means of mobility; they are not the same type of talent. The core of Rogue PVP since 3.3 (and 2.4) has been about the synergy of these two talents together, and not just because they made us effective, but because they made us fun. We could catch our targets and compete with them in toe to toe combat. We could move around the battlefield very quickly! We could make a difference in our faction's objectives!

Without these two talents together our role in PVP was a stunbot, who burned every cooldown to try and kill someone with a couple of Envenoms. It makes me very sad that this is the role and playstyle that the Rogue is being relegated to, because without the combination of these two abilities Subtlety is no longer viable in PVP and we have no other option.

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Well it took me about 2 hours to write this. It was my intention to be concise and non biased, and give you guys the best feedback about the aspects of the class that I do and don't like as possible. Sorry for the long post, but if we really have your ears right now I have to give you everything I have. I love this class, and I really hope that you guys will take the feedback of myself and the many other long time, loyal rogues to heart.

If I could make a summary about how I've felt about rogues starting out in Mists of Pandaria, I think my response would be "meh." I don't feel like we have gained anything new or exciting that changes the way we play, and I feel like rogues have gotten more stale with the recent changes because all of our specs play nearly identically to each other. At least at the end of Cataclysm I could choose between playstyle differences when I changed specs; I could play a timing oriented spec; a fast, use every gcd possible spec; or play a spec where I simply tried to keep up as many finishers as possible.

I would like to ask any of players who have read my entire post to please Thumbs Up it if you agree with many or most of the points I have made here. If we can show Blizzard that we are in agreement about many of the issues we are having, maybe they will give those posts a second read.


Good going, Blizz Devo Team.
it is not fun on AOE dungeon pulls to have virtually no AOE, FOK/CT are for like 20 adds, not 5. Having classes literally double your dps on these pulls is ridiculous. Should every pve rogue play combat just to have some type of cleave?

passive damage is such a majority of our damage that you can almost just position your character appropriately and do similar damage w/o even using primary moves.

For w/e reason rogues now seem like the squishiest class by far.

Cloak of Shadows is still not immune to censure, and now several heroic dungeon magic abilities.

shiv w/ deadly brew 4 piece should apply 70% cripp slow as well as current non-fatal poison.
Here is what needs to happen:

All CD's lowered by 30 seconds - 1 minute depending on the ability.
Baseline damage increase: 15-20% in PVP 5-10% increase in PVE
Energy regen increase: 20-30% (this will of course increase the damage, work it into the figure above)
Prep or Shadow Step made baseline, either one (we shouldn't have to pick between them)
Level 90 Talents reworked
Level 60 Talents reworked
Buff recuperate......please?
Fix tricks of the trade (Make it so it doesn't kill our already poor damage)
Burst of speed baseline and built into our sprint ability for mobility....we need it.
Blade flurry hits a third target for 50% of the damage done to the second target or if blade flurry is only used on a single target the rogues damage is increased on that target by 25% for as long as the ability remains active
Evenom needs to hit harder

What did I miss? Oh, all of our specs are way way too similar now when it comes to playstyle. I don't really know how to fix this, I don't even think it is fixable currently with the amount of problems we already have. Now you might say some of these changes might make us a bit overpowered.........which is why I am not a developer. These are just ideas on how to fix our broken class, I'm not saying they all need to be used.
Read this and give this man a thumbs up, on page 14. Well said, sir.

Hi, I'm Luna. I raid with Refined, currently ranked #14 worldwide for 25 man raiding. In previous tiers I have held multiple rank 1, top ten, and 95th percentile rankings throughout the world for rogues in multiple encounters. I feel like I can give a good overview on general class problems and then spec specific problems for my two specs, Assassination and Combat.

General class overview:

1. First and foremost, our single target damage across the board is low. At our best we are mid pack, at our worst we are barely above the non-vengeance tank. This is the single biggest problem with the class, everything else is minor in relation to simply being a viable class to bring to a raid. I believe that right now I am a liability to my raid because I am not able to compete with half of the other classes. I have had the thought before that, if I was my raid leader, I would be benching both myself and the other rogue who is part of our raiding core for just about any other class.

----------

2. I feel like Blade Flurry should be a rogue ability for all specs, and not just limited to Combat. The ability cannot be balanced to be equal to the other two specs because it is so powerful; if you are a competitive raider and there is a cleave opportunity, you will ALWAYS be forced to spec Combat. Maybe it would require a rebalancing of some sort for the entire class, but if there is ever to truly be a choice in what spec we play for raiding Blade Flurry must be a class wide ability or be removed.

It really sucks that right now, I want to try PVPing are sub more often but I can't because I need to keep a Combat spec for a couple bosses in this tier and for doing dailies. Combat doesn't suffer from energy regeneration problems right now as much as Assassination does, so its ability to mow down similarly levelled mobs with Blade Flurry and cooldowns make it far superior to both other specs for general PVE and dungeons.

----------

3. Energy regeneration for Sub and Assassination are not good, and it actually makes me feel frustrated to play the specs when I am literally waiting 5 seconds between attacks. I have more experience with Assassination than Sub currently, and I am sure that the developer team is aware that Assassination is regarded as the highest single target DPS spec right now. I am not sure that they are aware of how long we're waiting between combo builders and finishers as Assassination. It doesn't feel like the finishers are exciting enough in terms of damage or buildup; having to wait too long between reaching 5 combo points and using Envenom doesn't feel rewarding, it feels like an intermediary step between building combo points again.

----------

4. I don't feel like there is enough difference between the specs in terms of playstyle. All of the specs play the exact same, where we use a generic combo point builder, get to 5 combo points, and use a finisher that either stuns or does damage.

I realize that there is a similiarity in how each damage spec plays for each class, but it is obvious when you watch a mage what spec he is playing. They apply their damage and control in different ways and that's what makes the class so versatile and different depending on what spec you're playing. If you watch a rogue in PVE or PVP he is doing the exact same thing no matter what spec he is, because our class abilities which generate combo points literally have no other effect than to lead to finishers.

Mutilate, Dispatch, Sinister Strike, Hemo and Backstab are literally interchangeable. I feel that the ONLY difference in the way that the specs play differently and deal damage are as follows:

Assassination: Slow ramp up, must use 2 finishers to start dealing noticable damage.
Combat: Can cleave.
Subtlety: Must be behind the target to use your best combo point builder.


Outside of those three very subtle differences in playstyle, a rogue can literally do the exact same thing as any spec and there will be no difference in the way that your gameplay is altered.

----------

5. Our talent tree choices are not fun. When I play my alt Paladin, DK, Priest or Mage, I look at their talent trees and feel like the talent overhaul has added options and gameplay to each talent tier.

When I look at my rogues talents, I see a choice between two or three options that I innately had before. I feel like the talent overhaul for rogues is a complete failure because it did not add significant gameplay differences (outside of Prep/Step) depending on what choice you had made for each talent, it literally took away your previous choices and made you choose between them. We did not get any viable new or fun abilities or functionality out of the overhaul other than Anticipation.

Shuriken Toss is not a good talent, I honestly do not see myself ever taking it because our ranged damage with it is still so lackluster that it can't make up for the fact that we are not able to use our main damage dealing or utility abilities to our target.

Versatility seems like a band aid to the rogue class. It does not feel worthy of a level 90 talent to me at all, especially in the face of Anticipation which completely changes the way multiple specs operate. I know the developers have said that they believe that the combo point transfer limitations are a part of the "spice" of playing a rogue, but none of my other characters have their resources drained for switching targets. I wholeheartedly believe that this talent should be baseline for the class.

------------------------------------------------

Assassination:

1. The energy regeneration for the spec right now is terrible. It's always been slow at the start of expansions, but it is especially bad right now. Waiting so long between using attacks is not fun.

----------

2. Auto attack damage and poison damage is making up too large of a total percentage of our damage. On our kill of Fend the Accursed, which is very close to a Patchwerk fight, auto attacks and poisons alone did about 60% of my total damage by themselves. There is timing involved in using finishers and that adds a layer of complexity and a way to differentiate between player skills, but there isn't much difference between a good, great or amazing Assassination rogue when only 40% of your damage can be changed by a player's involvement at all.

----------

3. Due to the above, Mastery will remain far and away the best secondary stat for Assassination as long as so much of our damage comes from automatically applied damage. Haste and crit will never begin to approach the power of Mastery for this spec, and moreso than before, future gearing in raids will revolve around which pieces have Mastery innately and which do not. Pieces without Mastery will not be viable for the spec and we may be forced to use older gear.

------------------------------------------------

Combat:

1. The biggest complaint I have about Combat is that its single target damage in raiding scenarios is not up to par. If not for the existence of Blade Flurry, the damage would be so subpar compared to Assassination and Subtlety that we would not spec it at all for raids.

----------

2. The spec is way, way too dependant on cooldowns. Someone in this thread put it so succinctly earlier that I have to repeat; it feels amazing when all of your cooldowns are up, but it sucks to know your damage is horrid as you're waiting for your cooldowns to run down.

----------

3. All that said, in general PVE, whether it be questing, grinding, or doing dungeons, the playstyle of the spec feels good. Energy regeneration is a tad low, especially when Blade Flurry is up, but in general the spec is good at delivering quick damage to multiple targets and has two cooldowns which work well. I say two cooldowns, because Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Blades are macroed together to do good burst damage. Killing Spree is the other.

------------------------------------------------

PVP:

I am a big proponent of random and rated battlegrounds. I have well over 100,000 honorable kills earned on my rogue alone, Battlemaster, Conqueror, 2200 RBG rating. I love doing battleground PVP and that is the focus of my PVP experience.

My experience of level 90 PVP in battlegrounds and duels can be summed up as: outmanuevered, outdamaged, outlasted.

1. Every single class has much more mobility than rogues right now. Our mobility without Shadowstep is horrible. Burst of Speed costs too much energy to be usable. Even with Shadowstep, the lack of Preparation for double Vanish or double Sprint makes us extremely vulnerable to roots and snares. Many classes can literally run circles around us.

2. I don't feel like we do enough damage, our yellow attacks as Assassination and especially Subtlety do not hit hard enough for the amount of resource that we are using. I am having an extremely hard time killing almost anything, and when I do not crit on my yellow attacks I do not feel like my abilities are doing anything at all.

3.When I am PVPing against several different classes, I feel like they are doing way too much damage in relation to how much damage I can do back to them. Having Preparation definitely helps, but it still leads to two problems. The first being the disparity between our survivability when our cooldowns are up and when they are not, and the second being a complete lack of mobility in all cases. If we are specced into Preparation we must use our valuable defensive cooldowns, Preparation, Vanish, Cloak of Shadows and Sprint to actually catch many classes; and the net effect is that if we catch them it is only for a few seconds, and our defensive cooldowns are not usable because we have already applied many or most of them just to catch up to the target in the first place.

In summary I feel like the problem with rogue PVP, aside from general damage which can be fixed, is the seperation of Prep and Step. The two synergized really well where we could get to our targets, have a good uptime, and have enough cooldowns to be able to have a competitive chance to play well against them.

The opposite is the reality now, without both abilities there is no synergy which allows us to do this. Either we are extremely vulnerable to roots and kiting without the ability to catch our opponents, using several cooldowns to attain low uptime or we are able to catch them but unable to fight competitively because of the differences in base damage and lack of cooldowns.

I don't understand why the developers have picked these two incredibly awesome talents to pit against each other as means of mobility; they are not the same type of talent. The core of Rogue PVP since 3.3 (and 2.4) has been about the synergy of these two talents together, and not just because they made us effective, but because they made us fun. We could catch our targets and compete with them in toe to toe combat. We could move around the battlefield very quickly! We could make a difference in our faction's objectives!

Without these two talents together our role in PVP was a stunbot, who burned every cooldown to try and kill someone with a couple of Envenoms. It makes me very sad that this is the role and playstyle that the Rogue is being relegated to, because without the combination of these two abilities Subtlety is no longer viable in PVP and we have no other option.

---------

Well it took me about 2 hours to write this. It was my intention to be concise and non biased, and give you guys the best feedback about the aspects of the class that I do and don't like as possible. Sorry for the long post, but if we really have your ears right now I have to give you everything I have. I love this class, and I really hope that you guys will take the feedback of myself and the many other long time, loyal rogues to heart.

If I could make a summary about how I've felt about rogues starting out in Mists of Pandaria, I think my response would be "meh." I don't feel like we have gained anything new or exciting that changes the way we play, and I feel like rogues have gotten more stale with the recent changes because all of our specs play nearly identically to each other. At least at the end of Cataclysm I could choose between playstyle differences when I changed specs; I could play a timing oriented spec; a fast, use every gcd possible spec; or play a spec where I simply tried to keep up as many finishers as possible.

I would like to ask any of players who have read my entire post to please Thumbs Up it if you agree with many or most of the points I have made here. If we can show Blizzard that we are in agreement about many of the issues we are having, maybe they will give those posts a second read.
10/10/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Maigraith
Based on the existence of this thread and others like it, I think it's safe to say the number of people who dislike being GCD-capped is smaller than those who dislike being energy-starved.


No, there was plenty of QQ about energy capping, and it lasted months upon months upon months. You'll notice however I didn't say that Rogue rotations "shouldn't be sped up." Quite the opposite, they should be ... I merely warned about going too far. There is a balance to be had, perhaps different for each spec but a balance none-the-less.

10/10/2012 02:33 PMPosted by Ðomino
The problem with this expansion is that there was plenty of rogue feedback, but instead of listening to us blizz went with what the other classes thought should be done. Almost 100% due to how we were in pvp.


Actually, Blizzard did implement a few features that we all suggested. They also implemented a few good ones that we never thought of. Unfortunately, some of those have issues.

Tier 1 for instance is pretty cool ... except for the Subterfuge stealth break bug.

The Shiv changes are pretty cool, I mean, what a great mechanic! ... except that it's essentially a nerf (and a pretty severe one) for Crippling Poison.

Overall, I DO like the healing/resistance changes. I can't speak to the amounts, but the mechanics are well thought out. As there are Rogues who HATE our lack of survivability, and other Rogues who HATE being tanky, I think the mix of Tier 3 & the Recuperate glyph was a smart move. That gives all types of players in any of our three specs a choice that suits them ... now if only the values could be fixed.

Really, Rogues still have a TON of potential. While there are some large changes we need (like replacing Prep), most changes we need are small. A shorter CD and/or working through roots for Step, a re-increased Crippling, etc. etc. There are lots of small tweaks, but they are still, primarily, small tweaks.

10/10/2012 04:43 PMPosted by Faiyd
Well Blizz really does think the rogue mechanics are very well designed.


This one needs to be nipped in the butt. No, really. Blizzard didn't say they thought Rogues were the best designed, they said they thought Rogues were the best designed from a developer perspective. Furthermore, there was additional context, like smoothing out the spikiness of damage (which from a player perspective, isn't always desirable).

So when we say "Blizz said this!!!" Let's keep the perspective and the context intact.
To be fair, I remain impartial in that I always have to (and want to) take the broad view when considering class issues. I also know that you guys are frustrated, but the hard truth is that, even before Legendary weapon hijinks, Rogues needed some adjustment.

Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.

Edit: Please don't exaggerate the issues, by the way. It's much easier to relay information when I'm not trying to separate fact from fiction.


The level 75 talent tier seems amazing. Every single spell on this tier is about control. They all just buff control in different forms. My only complaint is that gouge not breaking on bleed damage and poison damage should be baseline, since rogues have been relying on minor bleed damage not breaking the move for so long now that do otherwise is to effectively nerf gouge unless this is talented. After that change the glyph of gouge should be removed and should be built-into this talent to make up for the talent's nerf. I believe these changes would make this tier perhaps the best designed tier of the expansion. That said, it could be made into an even better designed tier if you fixed the way the rogue 4 set is currently working. Right now the shiv effect when using a poison other then crippling doesn't apply the improved crippling effect. So there would be a mobility trade-off (an area in which rogues are extremely weak) when speccing into a talent meant to increase rogue mobility/control.

The level 30 and 60 tiers however are a good example of the worst that this expansions talent system has to offer. Each of the moves in the level 30 tier fill an entirely different niche. Deadly Throw fills a ranged snare niche for rogues. Nerve Strike is a peeling tool. Combat Readiness is a survivability cooldown. Though each do something which increases survivability it doesn't work out that they fill the same type of niche. So when you talent into a talent into this tier it feels like you are choosing what you will be poor at not what you will be strong at. The reason I word it like this is because the strength of choosing any of these talents doesn't make you amazing in this area. It just maakes you better at it. Like it should. However, this still leaves you bad in the other area. This tree should not be a choice between mobility and survivability. Meanwhile the level 60 tier has the same problem. You are choosing between mobility cooldowns and an important part of the rogue offensive toolkit. If you feel that rogues have too much going for them when given both preperation and shadowstep this is the wrong way to go about fixing the problem. Decreasing rogue cooldown reliance by making the cooldowns much lower, but removing the potential to reset all the cooldowns seems stronger in my opinion. Don't make people choose between being decent at one thing and bad at everything else.

TLDR: Don't make the talents a matter of choosing what to be bad at. Fix rogue mobility. Don't make us have long cooldowns so you can justify removing preparation if you feel step and preparation together are too strong.
Our survivability should never have been tied into self healing like recup and now life leech. I've never liked the idea of rogues surviving through any form of self heals because our defensive CD's have to be balanced around it.

What I do like and think how it should be is rogues survive through well timed CD's, (player skill) but because our CD's are sooo long now and Prep/ShS on same tier, dispel nerf, and bad mobility with all the cc that every other class gained. Well rogues got it the worst. We are now a pure support class in group pvp, brought just for our CC and nothing more. There isnt much fun playing a pure dps class that is now delegated to a pure support class just for our CC.

I feel damage is fine personally and our CC is fine. Our defensive CD's are to high, our mobility is worst in game, energy regen (mut) is bad.

Not enough DR and to much CC in this !@#$ heap of a game.

The class feels slow and clunky.
I honestly do not know how this class ever got through beta like this. i can understand a class being overpowered because of new skills, but underpowered? especially when we received nothing really new this xpac?

I really think they did think the rogue was in a good place and did nothing to this class for this xpac.

What is the true timetable for real fixes? Best case scenario is something is tweaked in next weeks maintenance. A more likely scenario is GC will take a few weeks to monitor the pvp closely, factor in the holidays in the mix and we are probably not looking at any real relief if any until mid january. (if we are lucky)

I do find it funny though how even in random bgs, players try to afk me because i am a rogue and ANYBODY would be better than me.
A lot of people are saying how other classes, especially Monks, got all the things Rogues should have gotten. Well, here's a little perspective for you from one of many WW QQ threads.

10/11/2012 02:56 AMPosted by Kallìk
Honestly I'm done. This is pathetic. This is bar none the worst class I've ever tried to PvP on. ToK is immediately demolished through, my GCDs are filled in PvP and none of them do enough to matter. I spend my entire time waiting for roll to come off CD only to be snared and rooted immediately after a roll and kited endlessly. You'd think with a 30 second CD root snare break I'd be able to get more than a jab off on someone but you'd be wrong. This was a hell of a lot of wasted time on this character and I'm regretting every second of it.


Rogues aren't without issues (many, at the moment), but lets keep them in perspective, eh?
I think my biggest 3 complaints right now are:

1) 4 pc set proc delay. That delay is just long enough for someone to run out of range if I'm snared. Should just change it to always having crips aura, and we can just have 2 non-lethal poisons (so a shiv would have 2 procs, whatever non-lethal we have and crips snare). Mobility shouldn't become more of an issue when you get 4 pc...

2) Survivability. This may be more of a problem of other classes having too much burst. I'm sick of getting globaled now that I have tons of resil. Some passive damage reduction wouldn't hurt, and recuperate being more effective would help a lot. I don't feel like I can use leeching poison because of the 4 pc bug... I just do better when my snare is reliable.

3) Mobility is lacking a bit, a baseline ShS or cheaper BoS or a lowered CD on SHS that breaks roots would probably fix that (notice, I said this OR that OR that. We don't need all 3).
Stealth breaking unexpectedly, and boss mechanics that get you out of stealth when the fight starts is annoying, and ruins what little dps we can pull
A lot of people are saying how other classes, especially Monks, got all the things Rogues should have gotten. Well, here's a little perspective for you from one of many WW QQ threads.

Honestly I'm done. This is pathetic. This is bar none the worst class I've ever tried to PvP on. ToK is immediately demolished through, my GCDs are filled in PvP and none of them do enough to matter. I spend my entire time waiting for roll to come off CD only to be snared and rooted immediately after a roll and kited endlessly. You'd think with a 30 second CD root snare break I'd be able to get more than a jab off on someone but you'd be wrong. This was a hell of a lot of wasted time on this character and I'm regretting every second of it.


Rogues aren't without issues (many, at the moment), but lets keep them in perspective, eh?


You're ignoring the main things we wanted (combo points on us vs on enemies, better regen (less scaling problems both on the top and bottom end), more active rotations, less passive damage) and focusing instead on the problems WW's have that are completely unrelated to anything of relevance here. Monks were given a lot of what Rogues have been asking for in terms of core design.

Monks getting kited in PvP has absolutely zero to do with anything in this thread. We get kited worse, who cares? That's a snare vs escape issue that MANY melee suffer from and it's compounded by the CD on healer dispels. It's not a core class design issue like energy regen, combo points, and passive damage are for us Rogues.

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