Why we are energy starved.

Rogue
Prev 1 5 6 7 37 Next
Let's make a distinction here that is a very important one that is often glossed over. Rogues weren't over-tuned at all...

Note, legendaries should not be considered baseline damage nor expectations therein. That's where the confusion is coming from here. Rogues were only noticeably powerful at the later part of Cataclysm AFTER legendaries became commonplace. Without a legendary, my rogue was struggling to compete with people lesser geared. After the legendary, there was no question I was on top of damage the great majority of the time (unless a fight favored ranged or had a lot of target swapping).


You have a very commonly held viewpoint of rogues. Which is a shame, because it isn't true at all.

The legendaries were not the problem. They merely exacerbated the issue. Worth mentioning, and no offense intended, simply because you had problems competing prior to legendaries, that does not mean rogues were hurting before they arrived.
10/05/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Rfeann
I've always been a rogue first and foremost, and I'll always be a rogue. But I'd seriously like to see some changes that allow me to consistently play my class, rather than shine for a few moments and then watch cooldown timers tick for several minutes.

Are you saying you want cooldowns removed entirely, or just made a lot shorter?

Almost by definition, a cooldown is not going to allow you to consistently play your class; you'll be (arguably) playing it one way when the CD is active and another when it's not. If you make cooldowns shorter, they arguably have to become weaker, which risks making them pointless.


Look what happened with Sprint. Sprint was a valuable cooldown, but it wasn't up often enough to really alter your PVE gameplay. They cut the duration by half, and theCD by half. I haven't seen a whole lot of complaints about that change because it's better that way.

As a combat rogue, I'd be more than willing to have the buff durations cut in half along with half the CD. You'll actually wind up using them a few times in a fight, and RNG won't destroy your entire encounter if one set of CD's gets wasted by fight mechanics. You also wouldn't be afraid to use them on trash packs that are close to boss fights for fear they wouldn't be up in time for the boss encounter.
As a combat rogue, I'd be more than willing to have the buff durations cut in half along with half the CD. You'll actually wind up using them a few times in a fight, and RNG won't destroy your entire encounter if one set of CD's gets wasted by fight mechanics. You also wouldn't be afraid to use them on trash packs that are close to boss fights for fear they wouldn't be up in time for the boss encounter.

I agree with you here. But maybe we should specific which cooldowns we're talking about: With Combat, for instance, I think AR and KS have pretty good cooldown lengths as it is, thanks to the effects of Restless Blades. We're using KS about once a minute (in PvE) and AR a bit less than that, which is still often enough to feel like it's not a blue-moon lightning strike.

I'm not sure I can say the same for an ability like Vendetta over in the Assassination tree, or Shadow Blades over in Sub, where it's roughly the equivalent of a personal Heroism that feels precious and fragile (since, if we're unfortunate enough to pop it and then be unable to attack our target for any part of its duration, we feel like we've wasted our only chance to use it during a fight).
I don't know what you all are complaining about...

Thief in GW2 is perfectly fine...


Yeah, I think blizz needs to understand that.
I don't know what you all are complaining about...

Thief in GW2 is perfectly fine...


Doesn't the Thief only have a temporary Stealth, though?
If they took my permanent Stealth away, I'd be mad.
10/05/2012 02:28 PMPosted by Rfeann
This isn't true. When Dragon Soul began, rogues were up near or at the top of DPS meters for nearly every raid fight. Once we started grabbing legendaries, the gap increased. I can't speak to the problems you were having with your DPS relative to others, but as a class, rogues were doing very well by the time the final raid tier began.


You're fabricating an argument and then daring me to contradict it. I'm not going to do take the bait.

I'm going to go based off of what I saw in our raid group. People with lesser gear had no issues on most fights beating me (from raid to raid). Once I got more powerful weapons (each step of the daggers), it evened out and I eventually beat them (even when they otherwise outgeared me in other pieces). This tells me that the problem is with how we scale with weapon damage (and to a lesser extent other stats + the proc of the legendary).

Indeed, I was within 1% of the projected dps average between both the Shadowcraft website and the Simulationcraft website. This told me that there wasn't really a lot of room for error or improvement in my performance. I was behaving as predicted and modeled. I reiterated this point to my raid leader before I got my weapon upgrades. After I got them, he saw I was exactly correct. Your performance I cannot and will not discuss as I was not present for it. All that matters is that I matched theorycraft and the experience other rogues had on my server.

There's an impressive amount of uniformity in a lot of the lists on this page. Here's my question about the CD issue: Are you willing to trade off shorter CDs if it means they'll be weaker as a result?


I appreciate your attempt to steer to conversation toward your agenda. However, keep in mind not everyone shares this as either the solution or necessary. In fact, I would dare say this isn't the problem at all (and most don't seem to be going that direction either).
10/05/2012 03:18 PMPosted by Angosia
I'm going to go based off of what I saw in our raid group.


You're admitting it's purely anecdotal, though. Which severely limits your input capabilities when it comes to the overall problem.

To go along with that, you're only describing a problem in PvE, when there is an entire PvP portion that could be discussed.

Edit: Hint, hint, the real problem with rogues was the interaction between PvE and PvP (damage, utility, healing, and mobility) with the way specs were designed in Cataclysm.
The fact that he deviated from impartiality and actually acknowledged our plight is evidence enough that he loves us. Now, about that statue...


To be fair, I remain impartial in that I always have to (and want to) take the broad view when considering class issues. I also know that you guys are frustrated, but the hard truth is that, even before Legendary weapon hijinks, Rogues needed some adjustment.

Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.

Edit: Please don't exaggerate the issues, by the way. It's much easier to relay information when I'm not trying to separate fact from fiction.


Arenas rely heavily on burst for this season. I'm 50/50 at arenas atm because it's all about who has the quickest burst on a target for 2s and 3s. Rogues could get a rating in 5s and rbgs (as long as the team is full of burst classes) but I don't see them being too viable for anything else. The games end FAST.
I don't feel like a dps class, I'm not a healing class or tank... I have become a utility class. I'm used for my ccs but EVERY class has amazing ccs now, so most of us are left wondering, "what is our purpose?".

Bottom line is we need more damage. This expansion is all about burst and I feel like EVERYBODY has it but us. Warriors, locks, death knights, mages, even ret pallies... all have that burst which we lack. Our only burst is killing spree and even that gets soaked when there are pets or other players in the area.

Our DPS is just worthless...

Edit: Seeing you post in our forums made me incredibly happy...
1. Give us Shadow Step as a class skill. Give us Deadly throw back base.

2. Erase Prep from the game and lower our CDs by 1m

3. Increase the damage of Mutilate/backstab by a small amount.

Do this and i will be happy.
10/05/2012 03:27 PMPosted by Sïck


To be fair, I remain impartial in that I always have to (and want to) take the broad view when considering class issues. I also know that you guys are frustrated, but the hard truth is that, even before Legendary weapon hijinks, Rogues needed some adjustment.

Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.

Edit: Please don't exaggerate the issues, by the way. It's much easier to relay information when I'm not trying to separate fact from fiction.


Arenas rely heavily on burst for this season. I'm 50/50 at arenas atm because it's all about who has the quickest burst on a target for 2s and 3s. Rogues could get a rating in 5s and rbgs (as long as the team is full of burst classes) but I don't see them being too viable for anything else. The games end FAST.
I don't feel like a dps class, I'm not a healing class or tank... I have become a utility class. I'm used for my ccs but EVERY class has amazing ccs now, so most of us are left wondering, "what is our purpose?".

Bottom line is we need more damage. This expansion is all about burst and I feel like EVERYBODY has it but us. Warriors, locks, death knights, mages, even ret pallies... all have that burst which we lack. Our only burst is killing spree and even that gets soaked when there are pets or other players in the area.

Our DPS is just worthless...

Edit: Seeing you post in our forums made me incredibly happy...


I agree. If not for shroud and smoke bomb, I would never find a spot on any type of team.
Let's make a distinction here that is a very important one that is often glossed over. Rogues weren't over-tuned at all...

Note, legendaries should not be considered baseline damage nor expectations therein. That's where the confusion is coming from here. Rogues were only noticeably powerful at the later part of Cataclysm AFTER legendaries became commonplace. Without a legendary, my rogue was struggling to compete with people lesser geared. After the legendary, there was no question I was on top of damage the great majority of the time (unless a fight favored ranged or had a lot of target swapping).


You have a very commonly held viewpoint of rogues. Which is a shame, because it isn't true at all.

The legendaries were not the problem. They merely exacerbated the issue. Worth mentioning, and no offense intended, simply because you had problems competing prior to legendaries, that does not mean rogues were hurting before they arrived.


You have a very commonly held viewpoint of non-rogues. Which is a shame, because it isn't true at all.

It's funny how people like to bring up how rogues had such high representation at the end, but don't want to admit to remembering how they were near the very bottom (along with warlocks and hunters) before legendaries and vial came into play. It's sad to see even a blue ignore this.

I firmly believe rogues were completely fine in Cataclysm, with a very few exceptions. Disarm and smoke bomb on prep were a bit much, which a simple glyph nerf would've fixed, and being able to premed in stealth over and over and heal to full without ever coming out was a problem too. Other than that, there was absolutely nothing out of control about rogues mechanically.

But, even if they needed toned somewhat, it went way too far. Having prep and shadowstep on the same tier is brutal. At this phase of the game, you can't do without mobility. You just can't. So that effectively deletes prep from the game (rather than simply removing smoke bomb and disarm from it) and it's just too much of a nerf. Especially when considering that base cooldowns are longer for some reason, and other classes got a bunch of new tools.
Let's make a distinction here that is a very important one that is often glossed over. Rogues weren't over-tuned at all...

Note, legendaries should not be considered baseline damage nor expectations therein. That's where the confusion is coming from here. Rogues were only noticeably powerful at the later part of Cataclysm AFTER legendaries became commonplace. Without a legendary, my rogue was struggling to compete with people lesser geared. After the legendary, there was no question I was on top of damage the great majority of the time (unless a fight favored ranged or had a lot of target swapping).


You have a very commonly held viewpoint of rogues. Which is a shame, because it isn't true at all.

The legendaries were not the problem. They merely exacerbated the issue. Worth mentioning, and no offense intended, simply because you had problems competing prior to legendaries, that does not mean rogues were hurting before they arrived.


Eh.. what are you pve guys smoking. I saw rogues with legendaries getting crushed in pve damage most of the time.

http://athenelive.com/dschallenge
10/05/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Sheevah
I'm going to go based off of what I saw in our raid group.


You're admitting it's purely anecdotal, though. Which severely limits your input capabilities when it comes to the overall problem.


Not really. I am not attempting to address any problems beyond what I have specifically observed.

To go along with that, you're only describing a problem in PvE, when there is an entire PvP portion that could be discussed.


I have never once included nor specifically denied any PVP problems. That is because I don't PvP and do not feel qualified to address nor comment on those things. Don't drag items I didn't talk about into the discussion and then blame me for not doing so.

I got your hints, but they were not relevant to the points I was making nor are they going to be. I understand why things are done the way they are. That does not, however, mean it cannot be fixed, addressed, or otherwise corrected. Are you arguing semantics with me to argue them with me or do you have a relevant point that doesn't otherwise derail the issue?
10/05/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Sheevah
I'm going to go based off of what I saw in our raid group.


You're admitting it's purely anecdotal, though. Which severely limits your input capabilities when it comes to the overall problem.

Yeah. My statement regarding rogue PvE performance was based on our DPSBot trend lines. We started Cata around the middle of the pack; as Firelands progressed we moved toward the top; and once DS was out for a few weeks we were at the peak. That's... I mean, that's how things were. Although there are limitations to what DPSBot is telling us, in terms of gauging the relative DPS performance of specs to one another on particular fights, it's hard to interpret the data in many other ways.

10/05/2012 03:18 PMPosted by Angosia
There's an impressive amount of uniformity in a lot of the lists on this page. Here's my question about the CD issue: Are you willing to trade off shorter CDs if it means they'll be weaker as a result?

I appreciate your attempt to steer to conversation toward your agenda. However, keep in mind not everyone shares this as either the solution or necessary. In fact, I would dare say this isn't the problem at all (and most don't seem to be going that direction either).

Alright, ease up there, cowboy. There *is* a lot of uniformity in the feedback on the page I was referring to: Just compare post #65 (Xiaoqing) to Sheevah's post immediately below it to Tanto's post a little below that.

Maybe I should have put a paragraph break between my first quoted sentence above and the second one? First I commented on the similar themes struck by several posts, then I decided to ask a followup question about one of them in particular. It's totally cool that you don't feel CDs are one of the issues, but it's still something that's been raised by a number of folks in this thread (and many others).
It feels like they forced a complex class like rogues into an inflexible and over-simplified talent system. Choosing prep for step? What sense does that make? No crit bonus on backstab? Square peg in a round hole, thats all our class is right now.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum