Elemental is too proc-y now.

Shaman
Edit for better idea-

Lava Surge
Each time the periodic damage of Flame Shock damages an enemy, there is a 20% chance to gain a charge of Lava Surge, which stacks up to three times and lasts until used, or until you are out of combat where it decays at the same rate as Holy Power and Chi.

Casting Lava Burst normally, does not consume a charge of Lava Surge.

Attempting to cast Lava Burst (or Flame Shock?) when you would otherwise be unable to, such as while moving and/or while the spell is on cooldown, will instead consume a charge of Lava Surge and cause Lava Burst to cast instantly.


Lava Surge needs to be more reliable. Perhaps increase it's chance to proc with each tick of Flame Shock that doesn't proc Lava Surge?

And am I the only one who thinks Shocks sharing a cooldown is outdated?
for a 20% proc chance i sure seem to have it proc a whole lot as is. i dont think ive had a noticable proc drought since i started levelling in MoP.
for a 20% proc chance i sure seem to have it proc a whole lot as is. i don't think I've had a noticeable proc drought since i started leveling in Wrath.


This is pretty much how I feel about the Lava Surge topic, with the alterations I added in :<

10/07/2012 03:19 AMPosted by Ziega
And am I the only one who thinks Shocks sharing a cooldown is outdated?


No, you're not the only one. I'm not one of them, but there are others that share your view. For my part I could easily see Frost Shock dropping off the shock cd though.
I feel lava surge procs are fine as is. If the chance were any higher I wouldn't bother casting anything else haha.

I think frost shock should either drop off the shared CD, or the CDs of earth/flame shock should be reduced by at least 1 sec.

I don't really see a big problem with ele being "proc-y". It certainly makes for interesting playstyle. However I can certainly sympathize with getting dry spells.

I would suggest switching Ancestral Swiftness to EotE. Since EotE works much like our mastery, you'd no doubt see a decent increase in your procrate.
Shock CD is there as an added complexity to the spec. Right now, you want to make sure flame shock is always on the target, while not wasting lightning shield charges. If they didn't share a cooldown, it would just be Flame shock -> [Whatever lights up] -> LvB -> LB.

Frost shock should be unlinked for elemental because they don't have the spare shock CDs to use it, and it pretty much invalidates frozen power as a choice.
If Blizzard removes shock shared CDs then they have to add more complexity somehow. They can't just remove it and be done with it because that would make it fairly mind-numbing to play. Although most could agree that you could remove frost shock from the CD. Could easily do the earth shock treatment by renaming it to something slightly different without the word shock in it. FROST SHEAR!!! YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh

As for lava surge procs...20%, and no ICD. If you have some serious lava surge drought then it's very rare, or you just aren't paying close enough attention to it.
If Blizzard removes shock shared CDs then they have to add more complexity somehow. They can't just remove it and be done with it because that would make it fairly mind-numbing to play. Although most could agree that you could remove frost shock from the CD. Could easily do the earth shock treatment by renaming it to something slightly different without the word shock in it. FROST SHEAR!!! YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh

As for lava surge procs...20%, and no ICD. If you have some serious lava surge drought then it's very rare, or you just aren't paying close enough attention to it.


No complaints about the Lava Surge proc too. I agree about Frozen Power / Frost Shock, I tried this talent and it was useless for ele. I don't have enough shock cds to use it :/

If it gets changed to FROST SHEAR though it will be cd linked to WIND SHEAR... for added complexity lol
As for the lava surge premise I would have to disagree with the OP. Lava sure feels fine proccing as it does. There are occations where I have hit LvB 2 or 3 times in a row outside of Ascendance.

However, for the shock spells I am somwhat conflicted. I can see that if they didn't share a cooldown the number of debuffs we could put out in a short time (a DoT, a Dmg reduction, and a movement impeder/root if talented), and that may be considered OP with the dmg potentiol with fulmination (especially), and then add on the DoT and meh dmg of frost shock mainly in PvP I could see this becoming a problem.

On the other hand, If they had the shared Cd reduced to 5 seconds from 6 (ie: make glyph of shocking?? from way back when baseline-- I'm pretty sure that is the right glyph can't get online to check <.<) I seem to remember this ironing out some of the rinkles that would sometimes make themselves evident; trying to get the most fulminations possible and not letting flame shock fall off the target.

Or

Leave them on a 6 second Cd, but just reduce the shared Cd to 3 seconds. This would be a nice medium to taking them off the shared Cd completely and leaving them as is. So... casting flameshock would cause the spell in incure its 6 second Cd, and then earth shock and frost shock would incure a 3 second Cd. I think this will help our sustained dps a little bit too which is where i think we fall behind a bit. Just being able to squeeze in that last fulmination and reapply flame shock. <-- ele/resto perspective
I'm not saying Lava Surge doesn't proc enough, I'm saying it's too unreliable. The dice coming up wrong at the wrong time can completely screw you over and pretty much the only way to deal with it is to burn Ascendance.

I don't really see a big problem with ele being "proc-y". It certainly makes for interesting playstyle.
Depending on dice rolls instead of pushing buttons is not "interesting" IMO. It's not even good game design.
I'm not saying Lava Surge doesn't proc enough, I'm saying it's too unreliable.


Well considering you don't have the Glyph of Flameshock, which is basically a requirement, it's no wonder you're having a lower proc-rate.

More time taken to manage and refresh flameshock = fewer consistent lava surge procs.
I'm not saying Lava Surge doesn't proc enough, I'm saying it's too unreliable.


The problem with this is you could switch two phrases here and your statement would still mean the exact same thing.

I'm not saying Lava Surge is too unreliable, I'm saying it doesn't proc enough.


Exact same meaning to me. You're going to have to do a better job of explaining yourself on this score before I can actually answer you.

10/07/2012 08:05 PMPosted by Ziega
Depending on dice rolls instead of pushing buttons is not "interesting" IMO. It's not even good game design.


Former Fire Mage perchance? :<
1. I agree, take frost shock of the GC of the other shocks, thats all we truly need and it wont make us OP or increase our dps.

2. I also agree that ele is to procy dependent. If I dont get mastery procs or lavasurge procs its a joke how little I can do. On the other hand I have smoked kids by getting lavasurge procs that also get 3/4 procs and its a joke and takes no skill. That being said as the expansion continues mastery will keep going up and the procs will happen more often and be more reliable, kinda like how mages used to do so much more dmg with shatters later in xpacks because of more crit (not needed now with the new shatter).

3. Lava surge can be finicky, but heres an easy way to have it proc almost every 5-10 seconds, ally liberally. And by that I mean make sure you have it on at least 2 targets. It doesnt even matter who, I even put it on pets, especially since it is much less likely to be dispelled. So just make sure you have it on your main target and then some off targets and you start getting alot of procs.
Well considering you don't have the Glyph of Flameshock, which is basically a requirement, it's no wonder you're having a lower proc-rate.

More time taken to manage and refresh flameshock = fewer consistent lava surge procs.


This doesn't even make sense. The chance to proc is on each DoT tick, what the heck does refreshing it slightly more often have to do with that, as long as the debuff stays up?

The problem with this is you could switch two phrases here and your statement would still mean the exact same thing.
You're going to have to do a better job of explaining yourself on this score before I can actually answer you.

Um, no, it does not mean the same thing at all. Over long periods of time Lava Surge's procs average out to a good amount, but in individual fights it is far to up to the dice whether your target(s) dies easily or if you have to burn cooldowns.

The damage the proc rate averages out to, and being able to count on extra Lava Bursts at a specific time, are completely unrelated.
10/08/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Ziega
Um, no, it does not mean the same thing at all. Over long periods of time Lava Surge's procs average out to a good amount, but in individual fights it is far to up to the dice whether your target(s) dies easily or if you have to burn cooldowns.


It's a rectangles vs squares thing. They CAN mean the same thing, but they don't necessarily do so in every situation which is why I had you elaborate. What length are you talking about as over a long period of time though? I can't say that I've ever had a drought of Lava Surge procs so bad that it impacted my dps by any noticeable amount regardless of the fight length.

At this point it almost seems like your problem is with the cooldown on lava burst rather than lava surge itself. You don't say it outright, but it appears to be implied.
10/08/2012 03:40 PMPosted by Gistwiki
At this point it almost seems like your problem is with the cooldown on lava burst rather than lava surge itself. You don't say it outright, but it appears to be implied.


Not really. The problem is Elemental is now balanced around Lava Surge to the point that we need the procs to be viable, and procs by definition can't be relied on except in aggregate. We cannot rely on our class to be viable except in aggregate.

Against the exact same mob(s) I've had fights that ended in 20 seconds with near-full health and mana, and fights that lasted closer to two minutes and ended with me nearly out of mana.

Whether or not I die in multiple-mob fights is pretty much entirely determined by Lava Surge procs. Sometimes it's no sweat, other times there is simply no way to survive except to pop Ascendance and Ancestral Guidance and Spiritwalker's Grace all at the same time.

To reiterate, I want buttons, not dice-rolls.
Not really. The problem is Elemental is now balanced around Lava Surge to the point that we need the procs to be viable


I disagree with your premise. Lava Surge is a perk, not a requirement for viability.

10/08/2012 04:52 PMPosted by Ziega
Against the exact same mob(s) I've had fights that ended in 20 seconds with near-full health and mana, and fights that lasted closer to two minutes and ended with me nearly out of mana.


This almost seems like a either problem with not having Ascendance up rather than not getting any Lava Surge procs or a gross over-exaggeration of reality. What kind of mob has its kill time drop nearly 100 seconds from getting 1-2 free lava bursts? Note that 1-2 is what one would expect with average rng over a 20s period >.>

Whether or not I die in multiple-mob fights is pretty much entirely determined by Lava Surge procs.


Proper use of TP or CoTE along with the Earthgrab and Capacitor totems allows you to fight an almost infinite number (my record so far is 22 level 90s with Ascend/AG, and 12 without it , and I envy the tanks in guild that pull 30 or more without cds -.-) of mobs without needing Ascendance, AG, or SWG.

10/08/2012 04:52 PMPosted by Ziega
To reiterate, I want buttons, not dice-rolls.


Now find a spec in this game that does not depend on some sort of rng to any degree, noting that I still believe that your premise that Lava Surge is a cornerstone of our viability is utterly false.
10/08/2012 05:42 PMPosted by Gistwiki
Now find a spec in this game that does not depend on some sort of rng to any degree, noting that I still believe that your premise that Lava Surge is a cornerstone of our viability is utterly false.


I'm taking you're not talking about PvP. In PvE you don't actually need it to proc so much. In PvP hitting anyone with an uninterruptible combo to drop at least 50% of their health is a necessity. More spike damage or more procs. You choose it. And this comes from someone sitting at over 50% mastery, meaning I get a LOT of freecasts. We need it to be viable in arenas, for example.

This is my main, Ele/Resto, but I also play BM hunter, Sub rogue and Feral druid. As a shaman I need to be top geared and nearly flawless to do what I do with an undergeared hunter in PvP. And still I just don't duel. We're too hardcasting dependant to survive on 1x1s (our survival actually depends on how expended or just outright bad the other player is). Even as healers we're the most CCable and interruptible. And our nice survivability from Cata (second to pallies, of course, but they've always been Blizzard's favourites) seems to have vanished, so...
10/08/2012 06:13 PMPosted by Uuna
I'm taking you're not talking about PvP


Correct, and from the OPs responses it hasn't looked like he is either.
10/08/2012 06:33 PMPosted by Gistwiki
Correct, and from the OPs responses it hasn't looked like he is either.


Mmm... Point taken. :)
Remove shared cooldown from shocks? nah, that'd be boring. Reduce the shared cooldown? Absolutely yes. Give some kind of bonus if you can have all three shock effects on a target? maybe. Cause unleash flame to add flame shock to earth shock as a 4pc set bonus? maybe someday. Unlink the cooldowns? no.

Lava surge unreliable? I havent felt so. I havent hit 90 but other than haste deflation the 20% chance will remain unchanged. If the original poster is thinking of something like: every fifth tick gives you a lava surge... then that'd be dumb because the lava burst cooldown is almost done by then anyway. It's more fun to have a random chance of getting two procs in a row or a random quickie after a casted spell.

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