Zen Sphere Hotfix - Analysis & Suggestion

Monk
On a side note, OP, your calculates for HPS are rather off. A GCD is 1.5 seconds. It looks like what you did was took the healing/chi figure and divided by the number of globals consumed, which isn't really a number that means anything at all (also, you mis-typed the Chi Burst HPC, and SCK has a 0.75 second tick). Lastly, I reduced your Uplift target count to 8, since 10 is only possible with TFT. Given your original figures, the proper HPS numbers should be:

Pre-Hotfix Zen Sphere: 45.9k Heals x 25 @ 4 chi = 289.875k Heals/Chi ~ 382.5k HPS (2 globals)
Post-Hotfix Zen Sphere: 11.6 Heals x 25 @ 4 chi = 72.5k Heals/Chi ~ 96.7k HPS (2 globals)
Chi Burst: 11.9k Heals x 25 @ 2 chi = 148.75k Heal/Chi ~ 198.3k HPS (1 global)
Uplift: 26.2k Heals x 10 @ 2 chi = 104.8k Heal/Chi ~ 139.7k HPS (1 global)
Spinning Crane Kick (SCK): 2.76k x 25 @ .75 sec / tick = 92.0k HPS
SCK + Rushing Jade Wind: 1.5 * 2.76k x 25 @ .75 sec / tick = 138.0k HPS


I'm going to adjust my numbers assuming a 1.5 second GCD and 8 maximum uplift targets. Was trying to do some napkin math at work - thanks for checking it over.
10/06/2012 11:31 PMPosted by Daerius
Chi Wave: ticks on average 4 times on me, healing me for 16,000 each time, going up significantly with Vengeance. Baseline however it will heal me for approx 64k per cast 1v1.


This only applies to soloing. When you're in a group, Chi Wave is bugged as hell. If it bounces from an enemy to an ally (other than you), it'll stop dead, no more bounces, regardless of how many target's it's already hit.

Soloing, ya, Chi Wave is amazing for BMs and WWs. Groups, not so much. On the healing side, I'm a *major* advocate of Chi Burst, it has amazing potential if you're good at lining up the shots.


I can confirm, as of 10 minutes ago in a test run with Coren Direbrew, that it does in fact bounce off allies.

In the sub 25% phase where he barrels the tank and starts beating on dps/heals, I would toss out a chi wave to help heal the dps. Now when I am tanking a level-relevant boss like him chi wave is hitting for 50k and critting for upwards of 100k. So I tossed it out and sure enough it was bouncing around healing up allies while I was barreled. I ended the fight with about 8k HPS and approx 66% of that was from Chi Wave.

So yes it does work when bouncing off allies. Maybe it was bugged and they hotfixed it, but I'm positive it works.

The key thing is people have to be in range and be damaged.
I can confirm, as of 10 minutes ago in a test run with Coren Direbrew, that it does in fact bounce off allies.


This must have been hotfixed then, as it was still bugged as of last night when I last tested it.
10/06/2012 06:34 PMPosted by Mist
There does not need to be a revert of the hotfix. Nothing actually needs to be changed in the current incarnation of mistweaver. Asking for class-breaking bugs to be put back is mind-boggling. Please don't act like it's difficult to use Zen Sphere either. Nothing is hard about generating and spending chi, especially if you cheese it with chi brew


@Mist

Did you even read my posts carefully before going on an emotional tirade? I've been healing since vanilla. Like you, I want a class that remains competitive and has choices. My point was not to keep it in it's current state, but it was more along the point that it was overnerfed. And not only was it overnerfed, but it left the other heals in the exact same state, making ZS absolutely POINTLESS under any circumstance. Might I also add, that if your raid is organized and stacks very very well, Chi Burst is still capable of the same shenanigans. If they elect to nerf Chi Burst as well, then there is no point in using either (shrinking our toolbag and utility).

As I suggested later on, it would be better to reduce the chi cost in half and also reduce it's overall healing by AT LEAST half. This would make it less bursty and allow other heals an opportunity to heal the raid. Believe it or not, we are not the only ones with bursty AOE heals -- we just have the burstiest.

And also, consider the point of view of a less skilled player. An average player using Zen Sphere will not be able to time it perfectly to get 3 bursts per epicenter on Feng -- sorry -- otherwise, the entire WOL would be filled with Zen:Sphere abuse.
Keep in mind that the real competitor here is Uplift. Unless the Chi talents have superior HPS and/or HPC compared to Uplift, there'll be no real reason to ever use them. Right now, Chi Burst exceeds Uplift on HPS and HPC by ~42%, at the cost of positioning requirements. Zen Sphere has much laxer positioning requirements (stacking is more common and easier to manage than being in a line), but still more stringent than Uplift. Therefore it should heal more than Uplift by somewhere in between. Given the currently nerfed values, this means that a buff from current values of 73.5% (net nerf of 65.3% from original, rather than the 80% nerf in place right now) would place is right between Chi Burst and Uplift in terms of both HPS and HPC (so ~20% better than Uplift on both, and ~20% worse than Chi Burst). This would mean that Uplift would be the heal of choice when 4-12ish people need healed (or when the raid is spread out), with Zen Sphere being the heal of choice if the raid is stacked and needs blanket healing, and Chi Burst being the heal of choice if the raid is stacked very tightly or in a line, and needs blanket healing.


@Daerius

You really nailed it. Uplift is amazing and has the laxest of all position requirements. If the raid is taking AOE damage, then frankly, it doesn't even matter who it's on, so long as you mindlessly clicked it off CD. And are you a good player with boss timers? If so, then you just hit thunderbrew 12-16 seconds ahead of a boss ability to get uplift on about 16 people. By doing so, you are doing more HPS than either of the other chi-using talents are capable of. Personally, I like the idea of rewarding healers for selecting the right spells under certain situations - therefore, if we have spells that operate better under stacked situations, it should be more rewarding than hitting uplift.

I still believe that ZS and Chi Burst should have similar HPS - if they don't, I can't see a situation where a high-end raider would ever choose the lower HPS option. I'd fix ZS by charging more global cooldowns than Chi Burst (e.g. make it cost 1 chi to cast ZS and 1 chi to detonate it while keeping the relative HPS between chi burst and ZS the same) and perhaps slightly loosen up the yardage requirement on Chi Burst. Even better, I'd really like Chi Burst to not require a target (thereby, just traveling forward if you do not have a target selected).
I read your post, I just think that you're wrong. Zen Sphere in its current incarnation is fine as is and doesn't need to be reverted. Just thinking ahead to a few of the future raid encounters, I can think of a few places where Zen Sphere is useful, mostly due to doing them on beta with the fixed Zen Sphere.

It's not absolutely pointless, it's just not the right spell for every situation as it was. Please, do not consider my telling you that you are wrong an "emotional tirade."
As it stands, that entire tier is where it belongs.

The tier is not there to replace things like uplift and whatnot, they're there for situational usage and that's exactly what they do now, and they do it well. Not only do they do a fair amount of healing, they're also controlled AOE healing smart spells with fair diminishing returns like EVERY other class has, whereas say, uplift is an uncontrolled AOE smart heal.

Additionally, most of the top parses from WoL this week are filled with Zen Sphere abuse.

Basically, buffing them or changing them risks breaking them to the level of where it was with no AOE cap. Even a spell that heals for only say, 20k with a 2 chi cost. If it heals 25 people at the same time, it's a no brainer. There is suddenly no other spell worth casting aside from revival because it's just entirely too easy to generate the chi then mash zen sphere.
I read your post, I just think that you're wrong. Zen Sphere in its current incarnation is fine as is and doesn't need to be reverted. Just thinking ahead to a few of the future raid encounters, I can think of a few places where Zen Sphere is useful, mostly due to doing them on beta with the fixed Zen Sphere.

It's not absolutely pointless, it's just not the right spell for every situation as it was. Please, do not consider my telling you that you are wrong an "emotional tirade."
As it stands, that entire tier is where it belongs.

The tier is not there to replace things like uplift and whatnot, they're there for situational usage and that's exactly what they do now, and they do it well. Not only do they do a fair amount of healing, they're also controlled AOE healing smart spells with fair diminishing returns like EVERY other class has, whereas say, uplift is an uncontrolled AOE smart heal.

Additionally, most of the top parses from WoL this week are filled with Zen Sphere abuse.

Basically, buffing them or changing them risks breaking them to the level of where it was with no AOE cap. Even a spell that heals for only say, 20k with a 2 chi cost. If it heals 25 people at the same time, it's a no brainer. There is suddenly no other spell worth casting aside from revival because it's just entirely too easy to generate the chi then mash zen sphere.


Apologies for calling it an emotional tirade - I really am trying to understand your point of view. However, I'm having a difficult time seeing where ZS will be useful.

Logically speaking, emotion aside, where precisely would you use Zen: Sphere? If you are stacked, and Chi Burst will do more HPS by a longshot, it does not seem logical to ever use ZS. If you are in a situation where a perfect stack isn't present, SCK alone is approximately equivalent to the HPS of Zen: Sphere. If you include RJW, it kicks the crap out of Zen: Sphere. And then you have Uplift still in the background.

Your point seems counter to what you want. You are worried that by buffing ZS to be competitive with something like Chi Burst that it will become a lolZSfest. However, by making it not a competitive spell, then we actually reduce our options. So now it becomes a lolChiBurst fest or a lolUplift fest.

Honestly, I was pulling amazing numbers with Chi Burst so I don't have much to lose here ... I'm just looking at the numbers and saying hey -- maybe we went a bit too far. Let's keep ZS as a viable option ... an equally compelling choice with Chi Burst.
@Mist

Kung has it right here. There is NO conceivable situations in which Zen Sphere, post-nerf, would be the preferred healing tool over Chi Burst, SCK, or Uplift. Whatever Zen Sphere can do, one of those 3 can do better. That's why I suggested the 73.5% buff from current levels (65.3% nerf from original levels). That would put it in the same area as Uplift and Chi Burst for both HPS and HPC, making it a compelling choice when the situation warrants, but not the obviously superior choice in nearly all situations that it was pre-nerf.

And Kung, it doesn't have to have the same HPS as Chi Burst to be competitive with it. Zen Sphere's explosion radius is MUCH larger than Chi Burst's. In order to use Chi Burst on a raid stack point like Zen Sphere, the raid has to be very tightly stacked. That positioning requirement alone is sufficient to allow Chi Burst to be superior. Sure, the super hardcore raiding guilds might still almost exclusively use Chi Burst, but that's fine. They are being rewarded for their superior coordination and dedication to perfection. Outside of that half a percent or so of raiders, Zen Sphere would still see a solid amount of use (but not the overwhelming use it saw pre-nerf) due to the laxer positioning requirements, and some healers (like me) would still prefer to use Chi Burst simply due to the differing mechanics (I'm good at getting my people in lines).
10/06/2012 11:55 PMPosted by Daerius
I can confirm, as of 10 minutes ago in a test run with Coren Direbrew, that it does in fact bounce off allies.


This must have been hotfixed then, as it was still bugged as of last night when I last tested it.


The problem I found is that it would always bounce off allies before, but it was when it would hit an ally with full health that killed the bouncing (Or the target mob dying before the dot could bounce off him, but whatever). Is that still the case?
Logically speaking, emotion aside, where precisely would you use Zen: Sphere? If you are stacked, and Chi Burst will do more HPS by a longshot, it does not seem logical to ever use ZS. If you are in a situation where a perfect stack isn't present, SCK alone is approximately equivalent to the HPS of Zen: Sphere. If you include RJW, it kicks the crap out of Zen: Sphere. And then you have Uplift still in the background.


As a DPS or a tank, zen sphere provides a large amount of self healing, a moderate amount of group-healing. Remember, talents aren't meant to be right for everyone at every time. Regardless, those are two situations where it is useful at any given moment.

For mistweavers, it becomes useful at any point where the raid cannot be stacked in one spot and instead are stacked in multiple groups in various places and you cannot catch the entire raid with a chi burst, zen sphere becomes useful because you have a spell you can cast on someone in that group and have on demand healing. You could argue that you'd use uplift there, but due to the random nature of renewing mist, there's no promise that you'll have renewing mist on every target in that group. You can additionally couple Zen Sphere + RM + Life Cocoon on a target for a solid amount of healing. Of course this isn't an "OH !@#$" type of healing, but it's there. I've done it before.

These are just a few of those "inconceivable" situations. I'm sure there are plenty more.

In nearly any way you can buff Zen Sphere, you risk making it too powerful. Buffing the raw healing it does, removing the AOE cap, lowering the chi cost. It's just not worth it when you have a spell that functions well as it stands.
@Mist

Thanks again for your feedback. I want to also add, I have respect for you too - I looked over your logs. It's clear you understand the class and how to heal. I'm going to ask you a separate question though, starting from your previous post.

10/07/2012 11:36 AMPosted by Mist
For mistweavers, it becomes useful at any point where the raid cannot be stacked in one spot and instead are stacked in multiple groups in various places and you cannot catch the entire raid with a chi burst, zen sphere becomes useful because you have a spell you can cast on someone in that group and have on demand healing.


If there are multiple groups, I might say that casting Chi Burst from mine to the other will ultimately result in more healing (and if they are in range for ZS, they are definitely in range for Chi Burst). If I can only heal one particular group, SCK + RJW on my own will result in more heals than ZS.

As a healer, are you personally, really ever going to pick ZS? You most likely are not - the reward just is not there. I mean, even if you just set it on a tank every 15 seconds, was that a really good use of chi -- wouldn't enveloping mist be a better choice? Will a tank pick it? Well, probably, but only because they may have no other choice (I'm not as familiar with Chi Wave, but I'm guessing it isn't as reliable).

Remember, the idea of the new talent system was to make equally compelling options -- it is supposed to be a difficult choice for each spec. It is not supposed to be 1 talent for 1 spec. We are lucky in that many of our talents do function this way.

Time will tell -- you could be right --there could be 1 situation in an encounter where it might be useful. But I also have a hard time believing it cannot be balanced such that it is difficult to choose between chi burst or zen sphere.
I read your post, I just think that you're wrong. Zen Sphere in its current incarnation is fine as is and doesn't need to be reverted. Just thinking ahead to a few of the future raid encounters, I can think of a few places where Zen Sphere is useful, mostly due to doing them on beta with the fixed Zen Sphere.

It's not absolutely pointless, it's just not the right spell for every situation as it was. Please, do not consider my telling you that you are wrong an "emotional tirade."
As it stands, that entire tier is where it belongs.

The tier is not there to replace things like uplift and whatnot, they're there for situational usage and that's exactly what they do now, and they do it well. Not only do they do a fair amount of healing, they're also controlled AOE healing smart spells with fair diminishing returns like EVERY other class has, whereas say, uplift is an uncontrolled AOE smart heal.



I disagree with the idea that the T30 talents are situational. For BM's and WW's maybe but for Mistweavers they're supposed to be part of our rotational abilities.....at least that's what was said by a dev when they nerfed the damage of the T30 Row in Beta.

I do agree that Sphere was broken and needed tweaking and I can see Chi Burst being allowed to have more potential healing for stacked Raids because a) It Has a Cast Time and b) It Requires correct use for max potential. That said I think the Tier still needs some tweaking......

Chi Burst - I'd love it to act like Celestial Orb in D3. A larger diameter ball that doean't require a target that we can line up and shoot doing damage and healing to everyone in it's path until it poops out at 40 yard.

Chi Wave - Should prioritize healing Party/Raid members over doing damage if used by a MW and shouldn't stop until it does all it's jumps.

Zen Sphere - I'm cool with where this netted out actually since it's the easiest of the three to use.
If there are multiple groups, I might say that casting Chi Burst from mine to the other will ultimately result in more healing (and if they are in range for ZS, they are definitely in range for Chi Burst). If I can only heal one particular group, SCK + RJW on my own will result in more heals than ZS.


To do this effectively, you would need to cast it outside of your group because if you were to cast within your group, you'd start the diminishing returns on Chi Burst's healing. Additionally, depending on the positioning of the groups, it may be difficult to catch the other group, or you may catch people in your Chi Burst that you did not mean to catch. Chi Burst IS reliable, but Zen Sphere is far more so. It's our most controlled AOE heal. It can be detonated the split second that damage goes out without having to depend on travel time.

Even if I only needed to heal my own group, I'd still have zen sphere on another group to explode it between SCK casts to assist with healing.

I find the options equally compelling. Zen Sphere has an increased chi cost for gained control with no travel time. Chi Burst has less cost for travel time, but more bang for your buck. Chi Wave is a decent tank healing tool, that's about it.

10/07/2012 12:16 PMPosted by Momofuko
but for Mistweavers they're supposed to be part of our rotational abilities.....at least that's what was said by a dev when they nerfed the damage of the T30 Row in Beta.


I don't recall ever seeing that reasoning being given. I recall the damage being nerfed so that it didn't feel like it had to be a part of a "rotation." Regardless, it's obvious that these spells are not meant to be rotational. Not with the strict restrictions it takes to cast them in most cases.
As a brewmaster monk, I've tried all three of the spells, and I feel that Chi Wave end game is by far the best. During the Stone Guardian fight, once vengance has had time to stack up (upwards of 80k bonus ap+) I'm getting chi wave heal procs for 75k or more. As a brewmaster, it is by far the best, and I have seen it bounce between allies other than myself, so long as they remain within the range of the initial target.

If you are a brewmaster, use chi wave. Your healers will thank you.


I don't recall ever seeing that reasoning being given. I recall the damage being nerfed so that it didn't feel like it had to be a part of a "rotation." Regardless, it's obvious that these spells are not meant to be rotational. Not with the strict restrictions it takes to cast them in most cases.


I just looked for the quote and I failed. It basically said that the T30 row was meant to be seen as a slight DPS loss if used rotationally by a DPS Monk or not as attractive a use of Chi as BoK or Guard if you're a Tank but that they were meant to be used a Chi Dumps by Mistweavers especially since we need those regular uses of Chi for Mana Tea.

I still consider them rotational in the same way DPS classes have priority rotations. That doesn't mean using them every time we have 2 Chi (for ZS or CB) or every 8 seconds for Wave however.
but due to the random nature of renewing mist


Starting to get a bit tired of this repeated claim (not just by you). Renewing Mist isn't random at all. It literally has ZERO randomness to it. None.

Baseline, it spreads to the nearest target within 20 yards that is not at 100% HP and does not already have one of your Renewing Mist HoTs active. If the conditions are not met, it will prefer, in order, targets at 100% HP that do not have Renewing Mist active, targets below 100% HP that do have a Renewing Mist active (but have not been hit by this cast), and targets at 100% HP that do have a Renewing Mist active (but have not been hit by this cast). Lastly, only if no other options are available, will it spread to targets previously hit by the current cast of Renewing Mist. In all cases, it will prefer the nearest target within range that meets the conditions being checked.

Glyphed, it simply prefers the farthest targets within 40 yards instead of the nearest within 20 (all other conditions and priorities remain).

Yes, it may be difficult to anticipate in some circumstances (particularly glyphed), but it's far from random. In the situation you were describing (incoming AoE, raid split into multiple stack spots), keeping it unglyphed and casting it on anyone in that stack point will ensure all 4 HoTs are within that stack group (assuming there are at least 4 at that stack point). If you have 8 or more people within that stack point, Refreshing it on CD within that group will ensure that at least 8 people have the HoT on them at all times. This is a very easy way to guarantee you have Uplift ready for a particular group (say, for example, the melee group).
10/06/2012 10:52 AMPosted by Ruxxian
This fix was needed because in PVP MW monks were lasting 3-5 seconds against BM Hunters and Arms warriors and this was not intended.


Bahahahaha, That's good stuff!
I've been using Chi Wave, and it still has some situations where it doesn't bounce (most notably, if it goes to you in a group), but for the most part it seems to be working fine in groups, since the tank gets it most of the time, and it will bounce around on him and the mob. I don't look at my healing meters often, but when I do it usually is a significant amount of my healing in the 5 mans I've been doing. Obviously, I'm not 90.

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