Can we please please please get a cleave?

Monk
2-3 targets we simply aren't viable at all.

Can you please do what everyone asked for in the beta and give FoF some cleave? Meteor effect is LAME! Not to mention the stun is next to impossible to land on a moving player anyway.

Fix windwalker because in the current raids, you might as well just bring a rogue, we bring nothing to a raid, AT ALL.
Spinning crane kick can hit multiple targets at the same time around you

But effectiveness of damage that spinning crane kick provide you is what you may need
Only classes with a two-target AoE are arms warriors, combat rogues, and that specific niche of frost DKs who just spam howling blast. Sure is a lot of classes/specs that aren't viable.
I'm glad the monks who haven't even done any of the raid content chimed in. Glad you two know everything about a class you haven't even raided with.

If you've raided with a Windwalker you'd know they are seriously lacking in every single department except single target sustained dps.
10/09/2012 10:02 PMPosted by Leciel
Only classes with a two-target AoE are arms warriors, combat rogues, and that specific niche of frost DKs who just spam howling blast. Sure is a lot of classes/specs that aren't viable.


What he's asking for is something that allows us to cleave in a raid by subbing out a Chi Spender or Generator.

Which would definitely be nice considering every other melee has the ability to 'cleave' or something similar (whether it be bleeds, actual cleaving, or lightning.)

Edit: People proposed another brew that was exclusive with Tigereye Brew that gave Blackout Kick and Tiger Palm the ability to strike another target. That would work.
A glyph that subs the blackout-kick dot/heal to deal xx% to a nearby target?

Or just a baseline 20% damage to a nearby target cleave while in Tiger Stance.
I believe it worked this way in early beta, but tigereye brew used to make your attacks cleave.
Either way I think it'd be nice if whenever the buff was activated we cleaved 1 extra target. This way if we really need to, you can use it as soon as the buff comes off to ensure 100% uptime, but at the sacrifice of lowered burst.
Only classes with a two-target AoE are arms warriors, combat rogues, and that specific niche of frost DKs who just spam howling blast. Sure is a lot of classes/specs that aren't viable.


What he's asking for is something that allows us to cleave in a raid by subbing out a Chi Spender or Generator.

Which would definitely be nice considering every other melee has the ability to 'cleave' or something similar (whether it be bleeds, actual cleaving, or lightning.)

Edit: People proposed another brew that was exclusive with Tigereye Brew that gave Blackout Kick and Tiger Palm the ability to strike another target. That would work.


What is enhancement shaman cleave? Replacing MW5 LB for CL, and hitting a second target for 6k damage every 10 seconds or so?

Feral druids? You can multi-rake, but that'll remove your CP from the target.

Casters? They significantly nerfed multi-dotting in MoP, by shifting a large portion of their damage to direct nukes. An affliction lock keeping multiple targets dotted is about the same as just single targetting now.

Ret? DS is a small gain on two targets, HoTR is neutral with CS.

It really is just combat rogues, warriors and a specific niche of frost DKs that nobody plays due to 2H frost being simmed better right now that can do absurd two target numbers.

Feral druids? You can multi-rake, but that'll remove your CP from the target.


I won't comment on the other stuff because I'm not familiar, but this is just irrelevant. Do you lose CP? Yes. Do you still gain DPS for keeping not only Rake but also Rip up for 2 target situations? Yes.
I believe it worked this way in early beta, but tigereye brew used to make your attacks cleave.
Either way I think it'd be nice if whenever the buff was activated we cleaved 1 extra target. This way if we really need to, you can use it as soon as the buff comes off to ensure 100% uptime, but at the sacrifice of lowered burst.


Maybe the amount of charges increases the number of ability cleaves you can use?
I'm not saying it wouldn't be great to have a cleave, but to say that "everybody but us has one" or "we aren't viable because we don't have one" is incorrect. Even for the fights that were cleave heavy like Rhyolith, raids were not benching all their MDPS but combat rogues.

Maybe the ones who were pushing for world first heroic.

Maybe the ones who were pushing for world first heroic.

Most guilds don't bench players for most fights but again, that's irrelevant. If there is an issue with Windwalkers, it exists regardless of whatever guilds decide to do.
Having new ability for monk must also consider other factors as well not only your own damage
Spinning crane kick. flying serpent kick. breath of fire. fists of fury. all of which hit multiple targets.
Spinning crane kick. flying serpent kick. breath of fire. fists of fury. all of which hit multiple targets.


I'll just break this down:

1.) Spinning crane kick is only used for 3+ targets for it only generates Chi if it hits more than 3+ targets, not a cleave.

2.) Flying Serpent Kick, its a 25 sec cd, and mostly used for the mobility, again an aoe, not a cleave.

3.) Breath of Fire. This is not even open to windwalker, its a tank move and again an AOE not a cleave.

4.) If you had read the tooltip for Fists of Fury you would know it splits the damage among all the targets. Example: If you do 100k crit single target with FoF you will then do 50k each to 2 targets, 25k if 4 and so on.

WW monks lack a cleave, but I don't really think we need one as bad as others thing we do.
I'm glad the monks who haven't even done any of the raid content chimed in. Glad you two know everything about a class you haven't even raided with.

If you've raided with a Windwalker you'd know they are seriously lacking in every single department except single target sustained dps.


10/09/2012 10:02 PMPosted by Leciel
Only classes with a two-target AoE are arms warriors, combat rogues, and that specific niche of frost DKs who just spam howling blast. Sure is a lot of classes/specs that aren't viable.


Warrior - Cleave + WW (resource restricted)
Rogue - Blade Flurry + Fan of Knives (Baked in aoe, and resource restricted)
DK - Howling Blast + Disease Spreads (resource restricted)
Shaman - Lava Lash + Flame Shock + Fire Nova (Cooldown based but spammable)
Paladin - Divine Storm + Seal of Right (resource restricted but SoR is baked in 6% aoe)
Feral - Trash + Swipe (resource restricted)
Windwalker - Fists of Fury + Spinning Crane Kick (resource restricted, cooldown restricted, and split damage)

So it looks like WW's suffer the most varied restrictions, as we are not just resource restricted to our AoE, but also cooldown restricted while suffering from split damage. This is different from every other class, as they all follow either Resource, or Cooldown, but not both. Effectively giving us only 1 AoE to use consistently.
I'm glad the monks who haven't even done any of the raid content chimed in. Glad you two know everything about a class you haven't even raided with.

If you've raided with a Windwalker you'd know they are seriously lacking in every single department except single target sustained dps.


10/09/2012 10:02 PMPosted by Leciel
Only classes with a two-target AoE are arms warriors, combat rogues, and that specific niche of frost DKs who just spam howling blast. Sure is a lot of classes/specs that aren't viable.


Warrior - Cleave + WW (resource restricted)
Rogue - Blade Flurry + Fan of Knives (Baked in aoe, and resource restricted)
DK - Howling Blast + Disease Spreads (resource restricted)
Shaman - Lava Lash + Flame Shock + Fire Nova (Cooldown based but spammable)
Paladin - Divine Storm + Seal of Right (resource restricted but SoR is baked in 6% aoe)
Feral - Trash + Swipe (resource restricted)
Windwalker - Fists of Fury + Spinning Crane Kick (resource restricted, cooldown restricted, and split damage)

So it looks like WW's suffer the most varied restrictions, as we are not just resource restricted to our AoE, but also cooldown restricted while suffering from split damage. This is different from every other class, as they all follow either Resource, or Cooldown, but not both. Effectively giving us only 1 AoE to use consistently.


Flame shock does like, 3-4k damage per tick at 90, same thing with fire nova. Fire nova does not hit the target its emitting from, so you are using its at the very bottom of priority.

Feral doing thrash and swipe on 2 targets is a DPS loss. Wasn't aware that they could actually multi-dot - Personally I can't stand how low the APM is for the spec.

Pally seal of the righteousness requires 6-8 targets to be better than seal of truth.

Already covered warrior, DK and rogue.

WW 3 target is actually pretty decent - Rogues may do well on two, but after that there is an awkward gap where their mass AoE is generally crappy until a much higher target count. If nothing else I wouldn't mind having an AoE chi dump. Lots of spinning, RSK to put the debuff up, then you really got nothing to use it on as a WW.
The fact of the matter is, with 2 targets up, there is nothing we can do to the second one to gain damage. We might as well completely ignore it, and that IS a problem because every other class has SOMETHING.

Please guys before you comment, go actually look up logs and see where windwalkers really compare to the rest of melee.

We're decent on Gara'jal, that's it.

Lets take normal Stoneguard for example since it's a prime example.

The Windwalker has a total of 4 parses above 70k dps.

Frost and unholy - 120k+
Feral 120+, 140k in one log
ret 110k+
Rogue - 25+ logs over 100k ranging up to 190k
Enhance - 100k+ on 5 logs
arms - 150k+ fury 130k+

Thats every single melee, doing incredibly better than windwalker. Every other melee spec has SEVERAL logs breaking 100k dps. Is this not an issue?
10/09/2012 09:32 PMPosted by Vicious
Fix windwalker because in the current raids, you might as well just bring a rogue, we bring nothing to a raid, AT ALL.


2 buffs?
Solid AoE via SCK?
Stuns on adds via FoF?

You're bringing a lot more than, say, an Assassination rogue, who brings, uh... stuns and kinda okay AoE, I guess?

The only guilds who care so incredibly much about raid utility are already 6/6H. You're not, so either your guild is weird or you're seriously overstating the problem.
10/10/2012 09:19 AMPosted by Wisemuffins
Fix windwalker because in the current raids, you might as well just bring a rogue, we bring nothing to a raid, AT ALL.


2 buffs?
Solid AoE via SCK?
Stuns on adds via FoF?

You're bringing a lot more than, say, an Assassination rogue, who brings, uh... stuns and kinda okay AoE, I guess?

The only guilds who care so incredibly much about raid utility are already 6/6H. You're not, so either your guild is weird or you're seriously overstating the problem.


stats and 5% crit? covered by 3+ other classes. The stuns do nothing on bosses. SCK will be used on 1 fight, bet you cant tell me which one.

no one is 6/6h so gg to you. The inexperience is really strong in your post.

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