LFR iLevel Requirement currently too high.

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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10/07/2012 05:49 PMPosted by Murdina
I wasn't complaining about the speed or slowness of gearing up at all. Sarosha was saying since the later LFR drops gear which is equal to or better than MV normal, this will remove all incentive for people to do MV normal. I was just saying that obtaining this better quality LFR loot may be so slow and unreliable it could tempt more people, casuals in pugs especially, back to trying MV normal - especially after some nerfs and people have a better idea of fight mechanics.


With charms and extra valor, I think people will be 470 in plenty of time.

Though I do think they will nerf MV to incentivize it
With charms and extra valor, I think people will be 470 in plenty of time.

Though I do think they will nerf MV to incentivize it


That's not really what he's talking about. He's saying that even after hitting the point of qualifying for HoF and Terrace LFR, people will still feel like doing Normal in addition to LFR after several weeks of <Tier Piece X> not dropping to replace their Blue gloves/legs/whatever.
10/07/2012 03:11 PMPosted by Sarosha


You can run them in Parity.

There's also 10/11 slots not using tier pieces.


Yes but faced with a choice between easy 483 and difficult 489's...

The skilled players will be moving onto heart and terrace

The casuals will be running heart and terrace LFR, some guilds might be doing some progress on MV,but I think most are going to jump it right for heart and fear LFR.

I suspect very few people will be running MV, and I tend to think participation in MV is going to tank and tank hard...

You might like to argue with me, but you have been here a while what do you think players are going to do? Dont you think most of them will run to easy 10 bosses a week LFR? and away from hard 6 bosses normal?


Maybe. On the other hand, MSV has higher item level gear, and several items in there are BiS for whichever item level we're talking about. Heart and Terrace do not contain full sets of gear.

Sure, Joe Easy Peasy will go do LFR, but he was always going to go do LFR.
10/07/2012 04:04 PMPosted by Lanolaven
id like to know if youve even touched corin direbrew yet.. those trinkets are amazing ilvl for the time they are out right now..


It was harder than previous years, but not that hard.
10/07/2012 05:49 PMPosted by Murdina
Sarosha was saying since the later LFR drops gear which is equal to or better than MV normal, this will remove all incentive for people to do MV normal.


All this says to me is that it's less incentive to nerf it faster. Which is just fine with me.
10/07/2012 06:08 PMPosted by Sarosha
Though I do think they will nerf MV to incentivize it


Of course they will. But they won't be able to do it fast enough, because that'd required doing it in like a week-2weeks.

the problem is, current crowd isn't going to go back to get the worse gear if they can just skip to better gear.

How many people did FL normal after DS came out?
That's how effective nerfing MV would be.
Im not sure what they are going to do.

Im now thinking the first nerfs are going to hit MV early to mid november, if the LFR crowd vilifies MV, raiding participation is in for a major downslide.

Though I dont think thats whats making raid numbers low right now I think its more this.

http://www.thedailyblink.com/2012/10/preoccupations/
10/07/2012 11:14 PMPosted by Sarosha
Im now thinking the first nerfs are going to hit MV early to mid november, if the LFR crowd vilifies MV, raiding participation is in for a major downslide.


Which is fine.

If we're talking actual casuals here, i don't care how nerfed you make it, short of nerfing it into rediculousness, it's not going to be enough. You're talking about doing 3 wings of LFR, plus an entire normal raid, per week. PLUS all the other crap.

We're at the point right now, that there's enough content, that nerfing is going to have a pretty small effect on numbers. It's not like DS, where it was do normal or bust.

The only mistake they're potentially making, is making the 2nd halfs of lfr compete with normal, loot wise, release date wise, and time wise. With the releases the way they have scheduled, it's almost inevitable that casuals will focus on the easier, better to gain loot.

Nerfing doesn't really incentivize if you don't dangle the purple carrot, because the people nerfs are aimed at do it for the purples. if there are better, easier to get purples, they're going to skip steps to do things as fast as possible (which has been a recurring theme in this thread).

For example:
How many people are going to farm 463 trinkets from heroics, instead of doing direbrew? Almost no one, it's free phat loots. It doesn't matter direbrew is a joke.

edit:

Here's a better example. How many people bothered getting JP gear/normal mode gear? No one. They skipped right into heroics. Waste of content.
I think one of the big mistakes they consistently make is making the first raid the biggest.

A new expansion is when there are so many things to do its a bit overwhelming.

DS should have been a 16 boss raid. BEcause the last raid is when there is nothing to do besides raid

The last raid should be the epic monster.

Now we not only have very soon 16 normals, 5 lfr, heroics, scenarios, dailys, pets, farming....

They really really have to work on my making the last Mop raid memorable, if they have an uldaur style raid hiding up their sleeves, it needs to be the climax.
Wanted to get this one back on topic.

There's a thread on MMO-C stating that LFR is much better positioned as a learning tool this time, which is very attractive for a guild like mine early in the expansion.

At this point, we're working on the logistical challenge of reaching the iLevel requirement (world bosses, Conquest gear, heroic drops, etc.). Any news on the discussed change?
I really, really hope T14 LFR isn't as joketastic as DS was, that way people can *GASP* actually wipe and learn from their mistakes. I never once did LFR on beta so I have no clue how it was tuned/etc then.
Wanted to get this one back on topic.

There's a thread on MMO-C stating that LFR is much better positioned as a learning tool this time, which is very attractive for a guild like mine early in the expansion.

At this point, we're working on the logistical challenge of reaching the iLevel requirement (world bosses, Conquest gear, heroic drops, etc.). Any news on the discussed change?


They already have changed it in the game's interfact to 460.

As far as learning tool, there has to be mechanics, and punishment for failure to be a learning tool, so far, it looks like you'll be able to heal through all the DS level damage that the real raid's near 1 shot mechanics cause wipes through.

I think one of the big mistakes they consistently make is making the first raid the biggest.

A new expansion is when there are so many things to do its a bit overwhelming.

DS should have been a 16 boss raid. BEcause the last raid is when there is nothing to do besides raid

The last raid should be the epic monster.

Now we not only have very soon 16 normals, 5 lfr, heroics, scenarios, dailys, pets, farming....

They really really have to work on my making the last Mop raid memorable, if they have an uldaur style raid hiding up their sleeves, it needs to be the climax.


With Blizzard's budget, and development team size, they should be able to put out tiers "LARGER THAN 7/8 BOSSES" consistently. Bigger is almost always bigger, because no matter what, in a huge tier, you'll have a few awesome encounters (I've already been satisfied with tier 14, just from the first installment)
10/08/2012 10:55 AMPosted by Naumu
I really, really hope T14 LFR isn't as joketastic as DS was, that way people can *GASP* actually wipe and learn from their mistakes. I never once did LFR on beta so I have no clue how it was tuned/etc then.


we will see

The problem is too many wipes and people stop going.

They know this from cata heroics, its a very fine balancing act.

From looking at the journal it looks like the tuning is rather low, but all the mechanics are in.
10/08/2012 11:02 AMPosted by Sarosha
From looking at the journal it looks like the tuning is rather low, but all the mechanics are in.


The biggest issue, is with the lowest tuning, people are going to just ignore mechanics. Hour of Twilight.
Wanted to get this one back on topic.

There's a thread on MMO-C stating that LFR is much better positioned as a learning tool this time, which is very attractive for a guild like mine early in the expansion.

At this point, we're working on the logistical challenge of reaching the iLevel requirement (world bosses, Conquest gear, heroic drops, etc.). Any news on the discussed change?


If it's the same on beta, there are mechanics, they just don't hit as hard.

Stone Guard, you could tank all three dogs on top of each other, the overloads wouldn't hit for that hard.

Feng was rough because in P3, people with Arcane Resonance would still wipe melee if they didn't know what to do.

Gara'jal was alright. You really didn't need anyone to go down if DPS was good enough. But most of the time, it wasn't, so you did need people to go down.

Spirit Kings was pretty simple.

In Heart of Fear, on Blade Lord, we'd hit enrage all the time because people would run out for Unseen Strike, and then die of course.

Granted, this was beta. Who knows what it'll be like when it hits tomorrow. But it does seem like most mechanics are in, just that some of them don't hit as hard.

It will be interesting.
Raid wipe mechanics in LFR are scary but they are a step in the right direction. People always say the raiding playerbase was better in vanilla and BC and I am one of them. The reason for this was attunements. Attunements almost ensured that the people you had applying to your raiding guild where genuinely interested in raiding as these quest chains where often very long and often very tedious. Your average player who was not interested in raiding would often times not go through the hassle of completing the quest and the players who did where generally at least interested in the idea of putting in work to raid.

Since Attumenets are gone and supposedly never coming back a new way to improve the player base has to be found. LFR could be that tool if its done correctly but DS was simply not the right implementation. If LFR is used as a learning tool it will inevitably be rough at first but in the long term it will increase players skill and with that I would argue increase their interest. People like being good at things and in game social interactions are often times better between like minded and equally skilled players. Right now there is a massive skill gap between the top and the bottom of the games players and I really hope LFR can be used to help fix this issue.
Trying to use LFR as a learning tool is a bad idea. The blues came out and said that intending people to learn in LFD in Cataclysm turned out to be a bad idea, since you'd keep getting put in new groups with people who hadn't yet learned, or were incapable of learning.
10/08/2012 04:33 PMPosted by Osmeric
Trying to use LFR as a learning tool is a bad idea. The blues came out and said that intending people to learn in LFD in Cataclysm turned out to be a bad idea, since you'd keep getting put in new groups with people who hadn't yet learned, or were incapable of learning.


It can be done correctly

Hagara was an example of learning done well, even if 4-7 people couldnt get it, it still got finnished, it encouraged people to get it right without forcing them.
10/08/2012 04:39 PMPosted by Sarosha
Trying to use LFR as a learning tool is a bad idea. The blues came out and said that intending people to learn in LFD in Cataclysm turned out to be a bad idea, since you'd keep getting put in new groups with people who hadn't yet learned, or were incapable of learning.


It can be done correctly

Hagara was an example of learning done well, even if 4-7 people couldnt get it, it still got finnished, it encouraged people to get it right without forcing them.


The problem was when it was 3 people who legit didn't understand, and 4 people who walked into the first wall to afk and eat their sandwich the rest of the fight. About 3 months into DS, those were almost the only times i would wipe (usually on madness, with blisterings). The next attempt, the 3 lowest on blistering damage would almost invariably drop (without getting kicked), and 3+ would suddenly "learn" how to do blisterings.

How do you get lazy people to not try and play chicken with afking?

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