The Great Ironpaw Token Shortage

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How does the +25 bonus for a feast you are maxed in the way of and the +275 stat feast fit into this?
10/02/2012 05:55 PMPosted by Keeblik
Oh, you're talking about the +300 food. Don't bother. The extra 0.2% DPS will almost never make a difference. The option's there for OCD types, but it's a waste of time.


8/8 DS raid finder. Impressive. It shows in the way you think. Min/max is all about that extra 0.2%.

10/02/2012 05:56 PMPosted by Furlanas
Those 25 stat points are going to carry you through the night? Feasts some plenty adequate. Yes, I know that word is the problem in that it means normal when we have people wanting themselves to be special. It seems optional activities are painted as mandatory because people want things their own particular way. Die less, you won't need as much food. "But I need the food to learn!" you say. If 300 stat isn't good enough to keep you alive, I doubt 275 is going to stop the world in its tracks.


7/8 normal DS, level 87 pet battle master. Thanks for the input.

As for the topic at hand, there's a pretty simple solution here. Nerf the mats required for cooking. It's really ridiculous. Blizzard made nearly every other profession simple to the point of stupidity, but for some reason they decided to make cooking a nightmare. Cloth drops so frequently, I've started vendoring it. Enchanting mats are so plentiful, I have a bank full. Food? I'm buying out the auction house almost every day to make the stuff I need. It's just uncalled for. If professions are going to be difficult, make them difficult across the board. If they're going to be easy, make them easy across the board.
Why not just make the +300 foods BoP and persist through death?

Now there's no need for a whole raid to farm for them instead of using the feasts, but those who take the time to level their personal cooking higher still get a minor buff that was clearly NOT intended to be used by every single person in the raid every single attempt, necessitating hours of collecting pre-raid farming.
10/04/2012 01:53 AMPosted by Kaeravek
Oh, you're talking about the +300 food. Don't bother. The extra 0.2% DPS will almost never make a difference. The option's there for OCD types, but it's a waste of time.


8/8 DS raid finder. Impressive. It shows in the way you think. Min/max is all about that extra 0.2%.

Those 25 stat points are going to carry you through the night? Feasts some plenty adequate. Yes, I know that word is the problem in that it means normal when we have people wanting themselves to be special. It seems optional activities are painted as mandatory because people want things their own particular way. Die less, you won't need as much food. "But I need the food to learn!" you say. If 300 stat isn't good enough to keep you alive, I doubt 275 is going to stop the world in its tracks.


7/8 normal DS, level 87 pet battle master. Thanks for the input.

As for the topic at hand, there's a pretty simple solution here. Nerf the mats required for cooking. It's really ridiculous. Blizzard made nearly every other profession simple to the point of stupidity, but for some reason they decided to make cooking a nightmare. Cloth drops so frequently, I've started vendoring it. Enchanting mats are so plentiful, I have a bank full. Food? I'm buying out the auction house almost every day to make the stuff I need. It's just uncalled for. If professions are going to be difficult, make them difficult across the board. If they're going to be easy, make them easy across the board.


8/8 heroic here (like it matters, who gives a crap about old content)

progression, my raiders will be required to have 300 stat buff food. For farm? we'll be dropping the banquets.

If any member of our guild is caught selling mats that the guild needs, they're gkicked.
10/04/2012 01:53 AMPosted by Kaeravek
8/8 DS raid finder. Impressive. It shows in the way you think. Min/max is all about that extra 0.2%.

7/8 normal DS, level 87 pet battle master. Thanks for the input.

Interesting, nit-picking about achievements rather then making a valid arguement based on the topic at hand. Afterall, not like he is posting on an alt or a new main for Mists. But thanks for the input, it shows the way you think.

Personally I like the new mats requirements for cooking, it makes the profession more interesting and works well with Farmville. I will concede that the requirements could be costly for raiders though, and would prefer to see the food buffs persist through death then have the mats nerfed. Perhaps the food buffs would be reduced to 30 minutes or simply persist through 3 deaths.
Making food persist through death, but only have a 30 minute duration would go a long way. The problem now is that it is most costly during progression, when you need it most, as you use a food every pull and that pull might only last 30 seconds. If I had to eat every other pull during farm it would be much better than the current system where we are eating a food that costs, conservatively, 1000g per sitting.

And as to the suggestion from earlier, if they want to nerf the 300 stat food to 275 and balance accordingly, I don't think any of us would care. We just want the banquets to be the best food. Banquets are meant to be a guild effort, but in the current system individual effort is rewarded more effectively. That doesn't seem like good design.
I wouldn't even bother farming for meat; just fish open water and trade in what you catch for tokens. It requires almost no brainpower or effort, just time. I do it while I'm reading or checking email or watching tv.

And don't use the top foods for early progression or farm modes, use it when a kill is close and every single point counts. If you're requiring all your raiders to farm all this food every week, people are going to burn out. It's not worth it.
Fishing for meat is pretty inefficient, you trade 80 fish for 20 meat. Yes, that is an option, but no one here is complaining the options aren't there, just that it is super inefficient.

Also, the OP is aware it will burn people out, hence making the post. I suspect many guilds will go the route of not using them on all content, but many will use them and it just isn't good for the game. Blizzard is fully aware of the hardcore mentality, many of them have been true hardcore raiders before, which makes it a bit mind-boggling that this made it through testing. It becomes even harder to understand when you realize they just announced a relaxation of the grinding requirement for reps. This type of grind is out of place with the current direction of WoW.
I recommend scouring the ah for the cheapest fish (bar carp) and trading for tokens. Otherwise you need to make raiders responsible for their own food, also, banquets are not bop, so you can buy them. Your guild cannot possibly be that broke...
The situation may not be as completely dire as it looks.

Take a peek at your banquets and great banquets. True, they do state "gain 250 of a stat for 1 hour." But it's followed with, "May benefit some more than others." Do we know what that means?

I haven't had the opportunity to test it, but perhaps the feasts will provide a 300 rating to some of the characters that consume it. Perhaps it's tied with that character being maxed in the cooking style of the feast or if that feast is tied to their primary stat. (ex: Wot:Grill is strength and Wot:Pot is intellect.)
10/03/2012 01:42 PMPosted by Gnorf
We don't mind the farming, it's the scale of the farming. It takes many multiples of the time required for flasks/potions to get the materials for cooking.


Hold off judgment for another few weeks, until raiders start hitting exalted with the Tillers, and can grow ~700 veggies a week, with minimal effort.


Many raiders are not going to grow that many vegs if they still need SoH ..which can be grown on the farms once you reach Revered with the Tillers.....
And people who use flasks will never really reach a point where they don't need SoH anymore since they're the only reliable source of Golden Lotus, which are needed to make the things.
10/04/2012 05:43 PMPosted by Aríoch
Take a peek at your banquets and great banquets. True, they do state "gain 250 of a stat for 1 hour." But it's followed with, "May benefit some more than others." Do we know what that means?


See my post at the top of this page.

On the lower +250 feasts it adds +25 stats. Their is also the master of the ways feast that adds +275 stats, if the +25 stats bonus is active for that then they are getting +300 feasts. Even if the top feast bonus is only +275 versus 300 I have to say my care factor is fairly low.

I do find it irritating that the feasts give int to healers rather then spirit:(


A 0.2% increase to each person's DPS is a 0.2% increase to the raid DPS. I've seen wipes at 2% or less. But 0.2% isn't 2%. It's a tenth of 2%. 0.2% of a boss's health is one second on an eight-minute enrage timer. And sure, we all have our stories about that one time where the paladin bubbled after everyone else died and killed the boss a second before the bubble ran out. And in situations like those, taking 0.2% off everyone's primary stats might have turned it into a wipe. But those stories are memorable because they're so exceedingly improbable. As I said, it almost never makes a difference.

Situations where that small a buff turns a wipe into a kill are rare enough that you'd have to spend many, many man-hours farming for each wipe prevented.


The .2% number was something that people made up, so I'm not treating that made up number as fact.


You're right, 0.2% shouldn't be treated as a fact because it's a generous estimate.

Even if we assume primary stats provide an exact 1:1 correlation to your DPS (ie. going from 10 strength to 15 strength will increase your DPS by 50%), let's take a quick look at primary stat values this expansion.

Right now on my Warrior I have 10,711 strength in ~450 iLevel. This is without me having a flask (1000 strength), real meta gem (~300), and not having any stacks of my trinket (+780, but it's outdated anyways), not having a food buff (+275) and me being in nowhere near high end gear (+ another thousand or so?), missing enchants and a missing 5% all stat buff. So we're looking at a conservative 13k strength for me fully buffed and ready to go? An optimistic 15k in a bit better gear with proper gems and enchants, etc?

At 13k strength, +25 more is a gain of 0.192%. That would increase my DPS from 100k to 100.192k. At 15k strength, +25 more is 0.167%.

Over an 8 minute fight (assuming 100% uptime), that means my total damage would fluctuate between 48M to 48.08M. That's a difference in 80k damage over 8 minutes.

I understand the desire to min max but there has to be some thought put into it aside from "hurrrr must have best stuff always". It's arbitrary where you draw the line of something mattering but I think less than 0.2% difference can safely fall in the "does not matter" camp for the vast majority of players.

If it DOES matter to you, you can either put in the effort required to get the extra +25 to a stat or you can pay people to farm it for you.
It's not that big of a deal. I've been a raider in the past, so I know that you need the best of everything to progress. But if you don't want to farm the mats there is a easy solution, hit up the AH. I'm sure that the casuals (me anymore) will be loading up the AH with lots and lots of food. Gold is easy to come by, everyone has ways of making it.

Give the individual foods a slightly higher stat bonus is a good way to keep the economy working. For small groups and heroics, throw out a feast. When you want to raid, go and spend a couple of hours farming or spend the gold to get your food.

And as for "having to do this 10 times for the 10 people in the raid", that's crazy. Everyone in a raiding guild should be responsible for their own food, enchants, pots etc. Now granted, some might not be able to get them and rely on others to help them out. This should be known ahead of time, and they had better be doing other things to help out whoever supplies them with their consumables.
Im not an experienced raider by any measure, but for those who argue its a 0.002% bonus, they're missing the point. As a raid group, you should be on the lookout for these bonuses. A 0.2% bonus here, a 0.5% bonus there, some more bonuses over here, now multiply that by the entire raid. The raid performance significantly improves despite their insignificant individual size.

Not having the best buff food is like missing one gem, or an enchant, or a glyph, or being undergeared. Any serious raid guild will tell you that these kind of things are unacceptable. Ignoring the bonuses is disrespectful to the whole raid, you are letting nine or twenty four other people down, you are basically saying with your decision "I know I dont put in as much effort as you do, but carry me through this to epix pls".

This new system is time consuming and adds very little actual gameplay, I doubt very many people care for it, and if they dont, why should it even remain in the game?
First let me say, 0.2% is overshooting. I have 22k healing power in raids, and ~40% of my spell's power is from base power. Meaning effective spell power is ~36k. (Melee need to take into account both weapon dps and ability base damage) 25 int is ~30 SP after buffs.

30 / 36000 = 0.00083 or 0.083%

For most classes swapping to blacksmithing would be both a larger and more perminent increase to output.

Second, the mats for individual food are not cool. I hope you have 10 inscriptionist alts making DMC's for profit. Basically each individual food costs 60% of the price of a 10 man 275 feast. Get someone with maxed maxed cooking. Have them make a feast. Only use the best food buffs when the group has the mechanics completely worked out on that progression boss. Or level alts with inscription and sell DMCs.
Call me crazy here but I do not personally have a problem with the way the food process is working. The introduction of cauldrons and feasts cut into the profits of quite a few individuals who used those aspects to make gold. As easy as it is to mine ore and gather herbs something at this point needed to be a challenge. Look at it like this once upon a moon way back in the archaic days of WoW .. people actually had to farm their mats for everything on an individual basis. They even had to pay their own repair bills (insert sarcasm)! You can either suck it up and farm/buy the stuff or get over it and just use a lower stat food. Any way you look at it getting mats together for raiding will give people something to besides just troll trade chat in between raids.
This one time, everybody was complaining about how raiding was too easy and everybody crushed everything too quickly.

This other time, people were complaining about how raiding at the top tier takes a lot of time commitment and is hard.

Also: it's been pointed out multiple times that the food itself isn't BoP. You can buy it. I'm sure a lot of the people who complain about making gold being difficult will stop complaining when they learn they can farm top-tier food for raiders at good pay. Well, they'll still find something to complain about.

Sometimes, I really don't understand people. If the +25 food buff is that non-negotiable, have you paid for a race change to pandaren, who currently have a racial buff that's considerably better than every other race? Did you drop a profession for blacksmithing during 4.3, when BS had a slight edge with epic gems over every other profession? Did you farm up your Iron Boot Flask? I mean, 1000 damage over the course of the fight from the electric arc buff might be the difference between a wipe and success, that one time out of a hojillion. I'm sure there's plenty of buffs you're leaving on the table because they're insignificant.

The food buff may be significant, it may be insignificant, but it's accessible (via the AH or farming). The top-tier have to work harder for their buffs, which seems like a good way to distinguish the top from the middle. What else do you want from this game?

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