ShurikenToss instead of Mutilate???

Rogue
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Alright I tried mute spec for 3 minute on the raid trainer's dummy here is the result selfbuffed with flask of the winds + 300 agility because the new one are too expensive, food + 250 agility and agility potion on use + 4000 agility for 25 second. http://imageshack.us/f/268/dpstestmutejpg.jpg/.

And this is the result of shuriken toss for 3 minute on the raid trainer's dummy with the same flask,food, and agility potion on use I am still new to this so my rotation might not be perfect http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/dpstesshurikentestjpg.jpg/.


Hi. You took screenshots of your recount. Not to be a d**k but...
In combat.
No graphs.
3 minutes.
No idea how many times or if you used your CDs at all. (Vanish, Vendetta, Prep since you chose it over ShS)

This is why a parse would be better. It tells you what procced. What your uptime is on Envenom. A bunch of things that a screenshot of recount won't tell us.
Did some testing take it with a grain of salt, I'm no "tester".

This is all with only using Shuriken Toss, Envenom, and Deadly poison.

First.
http://i.imgur.com/54Ex0.png
Second
http://i.imgur.com/qDdqu.png

This is with only Mutilate, Envenom, Deadly poison, and dispatch procs.

First.
http://i.imgur.com/OfDLi.png
Second.
http://i.imgur.com/rNDgb.png

All of these were timed at 2 minutes (plus or minus a second here or there) an encounter on a target dummy.
I did take off my trinket that procs, and didn't use any other ability that was not stated.

EDIT: In my opinion the ST rotation seemed a little more enjoyable. You have less waiting and watching your character melee. Even if its a few hundred or so dps loss.
I'm glad people are finally posting a little bit of support on the issue.

I'm also a little bit sad that the way the tests are being done and the evidence that is being shown has little to no value in the overall picture due to the nature of them.

With that said, it's better than nothing, and is a bit saddening with how close the results are for people, even with the nature of the tests being done.

Now, I realize there's a large portion of people here that are looking at the issue and thinking "Yes! We're gonna get Mutilate buffed!", but it's more likely that Shuriken Toss will be "fixed" to prevent it from being as strong.

So, it's both a good job, and a sad day. :/
10/07/2012 08:11 PMPosted by Mercifull
Shuriken Toss has the same 30% chance to add a second combo point.... and you are not factoring in deadly poison procs with mutilate and deadly poison throws... the reason i believe shuriken toss is doing more damage in overall terms is because it is proccing more deadly poisons per minute... consider if you are mastery stacked, this plays to that advantage perfectly considering you Want to proc as many deadly poisons as you can per minute!... THis spec isnt like combat with hard critting sinister strikes...


The 30% was Blindside, not crit chance.

Mutilate for 55e has two chances to crit and two chances to proc Deadly. With a 30% chance of adding a third crit+poison proc.
So, 55e would average 2.3 crit chances and 2.3 procs.
Shuriken Toss has 3 chances on each for 60e.

So, yah. It does proc more Deadly and CPs. Though, Mutilate is in 1 GCD and Toss is in 3 GCDs. But, it does seem in a long fight, Toss probably will win.
Just look up the top Assassination logs in the world, and see if they're using it.
I also like the noise TS makes when Im spamming it. Its just way cool.
I'm glad people are finally posting a little bit of support on the issue.

I'm also a little bit sad that the way the tests are being done and the evidence that is being shown has little to no value in the overall picture due to the nature of them.

With that said, it's better than nothing, and is a bit saddening with how close the results are for people, even with the nature of the tests being done.

Now, I realize there's a large portion of people here that are looking at the issue and thinking "Yes! We're gonna get Mutilate buffed!", but it's more likely that Shuriken Toss will be "fixed" to prevent it from being as strong.

So, it's both a good job, and a sad day. :/


If ST is indeed better than mut it wont be because of ST or Muts damage. It will be because Mut is so focused on passive damage from poison procs.

Essentially the way ST will outdo mut is because it still procs DP, but has a much lower energy cost. Thus if ST over the long run can proc more or about the same DP that mut can it may in fact outpace mut.

Thus the "fixes" for this may go a few ways:

1) ST no longer procs lethal poisons. Essentially increasing the bore factor of the talent...but forcing the use of mut.

2) Mut strikes to have an increased chance to proc DP, thus having mut proc more DP than ST and making it the better choice.

3) Envenom buff only applying to melee attacks

4) Mut damage upped or ST damage lowered such that mut comes out ahead despite the poison proc difference.
You all know the Blizzard response to this is going to be to nerf ST, right?
awesome, lets get another rogue nerf to shuriken toss b/c of how crap mutilate is.
Thus the "fixes" for this may go a few ways:

1) ST no longer procs lethal poisons. Essentially increasing the bore factor of the talent...but forcing the use of mut.

2) Mut strikes to have an increased chance to proc DP, thus having mut proc more DP than ST and making it the better choice.

3) Envenom buff only applying to melee attacks

4) Mut damage upped or ST damage lowered such that mut comes out ahead despite the poison proc difference.


On the coding end of things, it would be significantly easier for them to simply add a minimum range, so that if you were going to be using Shuriken Toss, you couldn't be auto attacking the target at the same time.
If a hunter can stand next to a mob and blast away with his gun, surely I can stand next to it and poke it with a shuriken.
10/08/2012 09:48 AMPosted by Deft
If a hunter can stand next to a mob and blast away with his gun, surely I can stand next to it and poke it with a shuriken.


Point blank range with a gun is much more effective than trying to throw something with someone up in your grill. :P

On a more serious note, hunters work that way because they were severely gimped when forced to be up close and personal with something/someone. Rogues are still effective in melee, and Shuriken Toss is intended to be a ranged combo builder to help us perform better when we can't get in melee range.
I can't see them nerfing Shuriken Toss. Since that would effect it's performance across all three specs. When it's only an issue for one.
Bad analogy. The most energy and force of a moving object is always greatest at its point of origin. In essence a thrown object will always impart more force the closer to the target you are.

This is simple high school physics of projectile motion. Obviously you are trolling.


When something is at point blank range, you don't even have the ability of gaining full range of motion in order to get the object up to it's maximum potential velocity. Hence, why a gun is much more effective at point blank than throwing something.

Stand 2 feet away from a wall and try to throw a dodgeball, and then stand two feet away from a target with a gun.

That's the point. :P

Don't try to get into a load of pseudo-intellectual bull crap to try and make a point on the portion of my post that ends with a ":P" (implying it's made in partial jest), it doesn't do you any favors.
^What Sheevah said. If somebody is within stabbing range, the odds of getting a clean throw off are a lot lower then at range. Hell you would have a better chance at using a pointy edge to slice their face open.
10/08/2012 10:56 AMPosted by Diggingahole
A shuriken thrown at 2 feet away is more powerful than one thrown at 30 feet. That is the law.


A shuriken from 2 feet away from the point it leaves one's hand =/= 2 feet away from the person attempting to throw

Again, attempting to go pseudo-intellectual isn't doing you any favors.

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