What if Garrosh kills...

Moon Guard
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10/10/2012 02:30 PMPosted by Oaktrail
The biggest reason for an offing that I could see would be Garrosh finding out that Sylvanus broke her word and kept using the plague regardless of his of warnings. I can imagine raising the fallen may not sit too well with him, either.


He bombed Theramore with a nuke that not even his fellow leaders approved of. The Garrosh that has problems with the plague and the Garrosh that threw Krom'gar off a cliff for murdering innocents is gone.
10/10/2012 02:26 PMPosted by Melyria
It's Blizzard.


Not an excuse.


Perfect excuse.

10/10/2012 02:16 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Sylvanas hasn't gone off the deep end yet.


Attributing madness to random acts is not good storytelling. We should not assume just because it is Blizzard they will pull something out of their butts.


It's not a random act. She's forcing someone she betrayed back into unlife to serve her - it's madness that she's doing this to him, but you could see the poetry of such an act - almost a mirror to her enslavement by Arthas.

10/10/2012 02:16 PMPosted by Maoseitun
To amuse Her Royal Highness the Banshee Queen.


She didn't know the man, why would she raise him? For all we know he was left to rot somewhere random. It isn't like she deemed him important enough to carry his body somewhere. And we haven't seen his spirit anywhere, which means that it is fully possible he's just moved on.


Arthas didn't know Sylvanas when he forced her into service. She can do it because it would amuse her to have the bigotted human returned to serve under the race he despises.

10/10/2012 02:16 PMPosted by Maoseitun
So... why can it not be a civil war? The undead High Elves don't follow him, big deal.


Because then you're making him the villain again. This would be no better than Sylvanas herself. Even worse, why would Garrithos side with the Orcs? The Orcs killed his entire family and spurred his racism toward the High Elves.


Garithos couldn't go back to the Alliance in his present state - but he'd still want to claim and hold Lordaeron - for the 'humans'. So he starts a war with Sylvanas, asks for aid from the orcs and tells them quite simply he'd be a much more trustworthy leader of the Forsaken than the treacherous !@#$%.

Sylvanas is ousted, Garithos becomes the Underking of Lordaeron.

10/10/2012 02:16 PMPosted by Maoseitun
... The man, with the ragged remnants of Lordaeronian forces, pushed the Scourge back and secured Dalaran and Capital City before Detheroc mind-controlled him and his forces. If the Dreadlords weren't there Lordaeron would probably still be a human capital in living human hands.


"By the time of the Third War, Garithos has risen to the rank of Grand Marshal, promoted not necessarily due to his own abilities, but his father's reputation and title."

From the CDevs. He was a warlord who basically just gathered all survivors to himself and fought against the undead during a time when they were all greatly weakened by the Lich King's dwindling power.


He was a warlord that required a -demon- to subdue him and the remnants of his army. Also, just because you do get promoted because of who your daddy was does not necessarily mean there is no tactical acumen behind it.
10/10/2012 02:33 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Arthas didn't know Sylvanas when he forced her into service. She can do it because it would amuse her to have the bigotted human returned to serve under the race he despises.


So you're retroactively trying to bring Garithos back by retroactively having her raise him 10 years prior?

Garithos couldn't go back to the Alliance in his present state - but he'd still want to claim and hold Lordaeron - for the 'humans'. So he starts a war with Sylvanas, asks for aid from the orcs and tells them quite simply he'd be a much more trustworthy leader of the Forsaken than the treacherous !@#$%.

Sylvanas is ousted, Garithos becomes the Underking of Lordaeron.


Garithos becaomes underking, Forsaken are removed from the Horde. Forsaken players are now deleted.

Right.

10/10/2012 02:33 PMPosted by Maoseitun
He was a warlord that required a -demon- to subdue him and the remnants of his army. Also, just because you do get promoted because of who your daddy was does not necessarily mean there is no tactical acumen behind it.


"Required a demon" meaning what? Detherok mind controlled him. We have no proof that it was done with difficulty. For all we know Garithos was walking along, looked at Detherok and was instantly mind controlled.

Detherok needed forces. So he took Garithos. There is no proof that he put up any fight or was, in any way, special other than he was a shmuck with a massive force behind him, one that Detherok could make use of.
10/10/2012 02:41 PMPosted by Melyria
Arthas didn't know Sylvanas when he forced her into service. She can do it because it would amuse her to have the bigotted human returned to serve under the race he despises.


So you're retroactively trying to bring Garithos back by retroactively having her raise him 10 years prior?


Cause those were my exact words.

Garithos couldn't go back to the Alliance in his present state - but he'd still want to claim and hold Lordaeron - for the 'humans'. So he starts a war with Sylvanas, asks for aid from the orcs and tells them quite simply he'd be a much more trustworthy leader of the Forsaken than the treacherous !@#$%.

Sylvanas is ousted, Garithos becomes the Underking of Lordaeron.


Garithos becaomes underking, Forsaken are removed from the Horde. Forsaken players are now deleted.


Who said they're removed from the Horde? Where do you get that from anything that I've said?

10/10/2012 02:33 PMPosted by Maoseitun
He was a warlord that required a -demon- to subdue him and the remnants of his army. Also, just because you do get promoted because of who your daddy was does not necessarily mean there is no tactical acumen behind it.


"Required a demon" meaning what? Detherok mind controlled him. We have no proof that it was done with difficulty. For all we know Garithos was walking along, looked at Detherok and was instantly mind controlled.

Detherok needed forces. So he took Garithos. There is no proof that he put up any fight or was, in any way, special other than he was a shmuck with a massive force behind him, one that Detherok could make use of.


Considering Garithos wasn't defeated until Detheroc appeared on the stage... yes. It required a demon to subdue him.
10/10/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Cause those were my exact words.


That's the only way it would work, given that she'd have needed to drag his body back, half eaten by Ghouls, 10 years ago to even know where the shmuck is. The guy's body was devoured by ghouls.

10/10/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Who said they're removed from the Horde? Where do you get that from anything that I've said?


Yes, it makes sense that Garithos tries holding on to Lordaeron for humanity... and ally himself with the race that not only murdered his family but basically spurred his genocidal hatred of High Elves. And to keep allying with the Horde.

10/10/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Considering Garithos wasn't defeated until Detheroc appeared on the stage... yes. It required a demon to subdue him.


Garithos was fighting rabble undead. So because he went from taking out rabble, to suddenly being mind controled by a top tier villain, it requires a top tier demon to beat him? What kind of logic is that?

Detherok needed forces, he took Garithos. This has no standing on Garithos' power. Just because he was defeated by a Dreadlord doesn't mean that it requires a Dreadlord to beat him.

This is like saying, somehow, that Liam Greymane could only be killed by a top tier enemy because Sylvanas killed him. That the whelp couldn't be killed by, say, a Forsaken captain or Abomination or something.
Lillian Voss currently holds no loyalty to the Forsaken or the Horde. I feel like she'd be better off with the Ebon Blade.
10/10/2012 02:57 PMPosted by Melyria
Cause those were my exact words.


That's the only way it would work, given that she'd have needed to drag his body back, half eaten by Ghouls, 10 years ago to even know where the shmuck is. The guy's body was devoured by ghouls.


Cause there are no spirits hanging around in Undercity. Just zombies.

10/10/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Who said they're removed from the Horde? Where do you get that from anything that I've said?


Yes, it makes sense that Garithos tries holding on to Lordaeron for humanity... and ally himself with the race that not only murdered his family but basically spurred his genocidal hatred of High Elves. And to keep allying with the Horde.


Do I need to explain air quotes to you? 'Humanity' - as in, the rotted remnants of Lordaeron. He is a tactician, he was fighting against the undead and yet allied himself with them in the darkest hour. You really think he isn't going to do the same with the orcs?

10/10/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Considering Garithos wasn't defeated until Detheroc appeared on the stage... yes. It required a demon to subdue him.


Garithos was fighting rabble undead. So because he went from taking out rabble, to suddenly being mind controled by a top tier villain, it requires a top tier demon to beat him? What kind of logic is that?


... Undead with necromancers backing them. You understand the implications, correct? C'mon, Melyria, I know you're smarter than this. It shouldn't take too much for you to realize what it means to battle the undead with the living.

Detherok needed forces, he took Garithos. This has no standing on Garithos' power. Just because he was defeated by a Dreadlord doesn't mean that it requires a Dreadlord to beat him.


Then why was Garithos not stopped by the Scourge before then?

This is like saying, somehow, that Liam Greymane could only be killed by a top tier enemy because Sylvanas killed him. That the whelp couldn't be killed by, say, a Forsaken captain or Abomination or something.


Then why was Liam not killed by a Forsaken captain or an Abomination before then? And actually stood, bare-chested and wielding a broken bottle in defiance of the Forsaken forces?
Then why was Liam not killed by a Forsaken captain or an Abomination before then? And actually stood, bare-chested and wielding a broken bottle in defiance of the Forsaken forces?


Because he got lucky? I don't think there were any special elements of Liam's disposition that allowed him to survive longer.
Then why was Liam not killed by a Forsaken captain or an Abomination before then? And actually stood, bare-chested and wielding a broken bottle in defiance of the Forsaken forces?


Because he got lucky? I don't think there were any special elements of Liam's disposition that allowed him to survive longer.


Using this logic, a man who is a commander like Garithos, would it be said that maybe he wasn't the kind of person who would fight a Dreadlord on his own? That maybe it didn't take a Dreadlord to subdue him, but rather it just happened to be Detherok zeroed in him on?

I mean, really. The guy was fighting Ghouls and Crypt Fiends. And we don't know if he was exactly the front-line sort of commander. For all we know, an Abomination could've taken him out. Or, at least, somebody like a low tier Death Knight or Dark Ranger. Just because he was defeated by a Dreadlord doesn't mean that's a benchmark for the minimum requirements for beating him.

People, by far, overestimate and idolize the guy.
I don't know my Garithos so well Mely, I was just remarking on the one part of this I knew well. Continue with the argument though, I'm enjoying reading it. Sorry I can't respond to your point!
10/10/2012 03:37 PMPosted by Ferenold
I don't know my Garithos so well Mely, I was just remarking on the one part of this I knew well. Continue with the argument though, I'm enjoying reading it. Sorry I can't respond to your point!


It was more of a hypothetical. We don't know much about Garithos, his leadership style (Except he makes some very bad ones out of racism), nor his own personal combat abilities.

However, we do know that Dreadlords can and do control people easily enough. Just saying, if we see some dude be taken out by a Dreadlord it doesn't mean that the minimal thing needed to kill him is a Dreadlord. Especially when Dreadlords commanders, such as Detherok and Varimathras, tend to be a tier above a lot of demons.
10/10/2012 03:13 PMPosted by Sreech
Then why was Liam not killed by a Forsaken captain or an Abomination before then? And actually stood, bare-chested and wielding a broken bottle in defiance of the Forsaken forces?


As far as the broken bottle matter...I'm not inclined to reference that part of the starting zone, as I just don't see him -realistically- standing against Forsaken troops with a broken bottle. Maybe from the outset, but I imagine in a book setting he would've retrieved a fallen weapon... unless broken bottles have gone up in resiliency.


Well, he -does- get a weapon. But I'm willing to bet the whole 'Oh, we're suddenly in a -second- war after the worgen!' kinda factors in to a lack of weaponry.

Then why was Liam not killed by a Forsaken captain or an Abomination before then? And actually stood, bare-chested and wielding a broken bottle in defiance of the Forsaken forces?


Because he got lucky? I don't think there were any special elements of Liam's disposition that allowed him to survive longer.


Could be he was better trained at fighting than a Forsaken and knew well enough (this was shown) to not fight an Abomination hand-to-hand :P



Because he got lucky? I don't think there were any special elements of Liam's disposition that allowed him to survive longer.


Using this logic, a man who is a commander like Garithos, would it be said that maybe he wasn't the kind of person who would fight a Dreadlord on his own? That maybe it didn't take a Dreadlord to subdue him, but rather it just happened to be Detherok zeroed in him on?

I mean, really. The guy was fighting Ghouls and Crypt Fiends. And we don't know if he was exactly the front-line sort of commander. For all we know, an Abomination could've taken him out. Or, at least, somebody like a low tier Death Knight or Dark Ranger. Just because he was defeated by a Dreadlord doesn't mean that's a benchmark for the minimum requirements for beating him.

People, by far, overestimate and idolize the guy.


Alright, let's take a look at his abilities from WC3 - and I'm not doing this in a 'lol mountain king/tauren chieftain/paladin' thing I'm doing this in a 'He has knowledge of powerful abilities that aid in various forms of frontline combat: be that aiding himself or his men in the thick of a fight.'

He's a strong warrior, he has some talent when it comes to magic (Avatar Form, Holy Light) - reading his biography on wowpedia shows that he has served on the frontlines - a knight in the Second War. He also doesn't blame the orcs for the death of his family, it rests firmly at the feet of the elves - interesting to note.

What's more, during the Third War, he was the only unifying force in Lordaeron - this has to speak to the man's charisma as a leader. That even an elf prince would kneel to the orders of a human general also speaks in the favor of Garithos.

Garithos proceeds to retake Dalaran from the Scourge, I think this is slightly before Illidan's sorcery, and then employs the Blood Elves later to repair the towers of Dalaran - using them for a task they were suited for considering the magical nature of Dalaran.

Garithos crushes the Scourge in the south with his forces, and then turns back to deal with the Scourge from the west - tactically, against undead forces, this is a sound decision. Having equal forces to an undead army is always -bad-, the undead can easily win a battle of attrition.

Imprisonment of Kael'thas? Acceptable and logical - he consorted with enemies of almost all the races twice now, how can he trust Kael and the Blood Elves?

He pushes the Scourge back into the Plaguelands with only the remnants of Lordaeron and whatever dwarves he still has left - is ultimately confronted and defeated by both Detheroc and Balnazzar, then is later freed by Sylvanas.

His most tactically unsound decision in all of this is believing Sylvanas and trusting her.

Actually, looking over the whole thing... Garithos is more impressive than I initially thought.
Well, he -does- get a weapon. But I'm willing to bet the whole 'Oh, we're suddenly in a -second- war after the worgen!' kinda factors in to a lack of weaponry.


I don't know if this is really a valid point. We see almost all of the Gilnean militiamen armed with both rapiers and some manner of firearms. That being said, it's not only the second war after the Worgen. Technically speaking it's the fourth, considering the:

-Scourge
-Northgate Rebellion
-Worgen
-Forsaken.

Yet it looks like Gilneans still have access to firearms and rapiers even after going through all those wars.
Well, he -does- get a weapon. But I'm willing to bet the whole 'Oh, we're suddenly in a -second- war after the worgen!' kinda factors in to a lack of weaponry.


I don't know if this is really a valid point. We see almost all of the Gilnean militiamen armed with both rapiers and some manner of firearms. That being said, it's not only the second war after the Worgen. Technically speaking it's the fourth, considering the:

-Scourge
-Northgate Rebellion
-Worgen
-Forsaken.

Yet it looks like Gilneans still have access to firearms and rapiers even after going through all those wars.


A few do - a few don't.

And Liam does have a rifle I forgot about that - but his melee weapon is a bottle.


I don't know if this is really a valid point. We see almost all of the Gilnean militiamen armed with both rapiers and some manner of firearms. That being said, it's not only the second war after the Worgen. Technically speaking it's the fourth, considering the:

-Scourge
-Northgate Rebellion
-Worgen
-Forsaken.

Yet it looks like Gilneans still have access to firearms and rapiers even after going through all those wars.


A few do - a few don't.

And Liam does have a rifle I forgot about that - but his melee weapon is a bottle.


Show me one Gilnean militiamen that does not have a rifle. Mind you, this might just be game mechanics, but it seems like by and large the Gilnean populace has been armed for the crisis.

Industrial capacity allowed that, most likely.


A few do - a few don't.

And Liam does have a rifle I forgot about that - but his melee weapon is a bottle.


Show me one Gilnean militiamen that does not have a rifle. Mind you, this might just be game mechanics, but it seems like by and large the Gilnean populace has been armed for the crisis.

Industrial capacity allowed that, most likely.


The drowning ones.

http://tinyurl.com/3jsor4h

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