What makes a Mary Sue in your opinion?

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10/02/2012 09:35 PMPosted by Karob
Lilian Voss.


Lilian Voss isn't a Mary Sue.

But Med'an is.
10/02/2012 09:35 PMPosted by Lito
frost trolls are total sues imo


Icetroll as a name was taken so I had to troll with frostytroll. Even frosttroll was taken.

My MRP says ice troll though.

10/02/2012 09:35 PMPosted by Karob
Lilian Voss.


HUGEST MARY SUE.

Totally worse than Med'an.
10/02/2012 09:23 PMPosted by Meekamu
To me a Mary Sue is someone who must ALWAYS be the center of attention. No matter what is going on. They scream for attention one way or another. Even when supposedly focusing on someone else, they manage to turn everything on them. Sometimes people do it unintentionally. Usually pretty easy to tell when someone is doing it unintentionally cause if you ask them to knock it off - they do. Those who don't back off when asked - they are the true Mary Sues.


I thought that was an attention hog.

Mary Sues, to me, are people who godmod, powergame and metagame (as Frostytroll has said.) They can't accept their characters defeat or inability to know certain things.
If we're going by the old Star Trek fanfiction which spawned the term? A literal self-insert of the author who simply must overshine and outperform even the greatest of experts at any given situation or task regardless of experience or impossibility, and is loved and adored unquestioningly by major lore characters and is utterly cherished and can do no wrong.

...It's funny how a lot of things came from or were inspired by Star Trek and its fanbase. Far more than what you can get from Star Wars, at least!
If we're going by the old Star Trek fanfiction which spawned the term? A literal self-insert of the author who simply must overshine and outperform even the greatest of experts at any given situation or task regardless of experience or impossibility, and is loved and adored unquestioningly by major lore characters and is utterly cherished and can do no wrong.

...It's funny how a lot of things came from or were inspired by Star Trek and its fanbase. Far more than what you can get from Star Wars, at least!


Pretty much this. It's the only definition I've ever of when it comes to a Mary Sue, and it's pretty much the only one that matters. A Mary Sue has to be a self-insertion character, plain and simple. It's a character in which the author writes him/herself into a story in order to act out fantasies that they would not be able to perform in real life. Without it being a self-insertion character, it's not a Mary Sue and just considered bad writing.

They are typically considered poor characters because said authors are more concerned about making themselves awesome in the story's context than in actually telling the story itself. That's not always the case, though, and Mary Sues are not necessarily godmodders so much as characters driven only by the author's RL goals and desires. Bella in Twilight or whatsherface in 50 Shades of Grey come to mind. They aren't half-vampire, half-dragon god queens for the majority of the books, but they are definitely wish-fulfillment characters and, no surprise, are considered weak or poorly drawn characters to most of the literary community.

In the context of RP, at least WoW RP, I see it as being players who write themselves into the game as Kings, Queens, Dukes, sons of Garrosh, etc. with no regard or even blatant disregard for WoW's lore itself. They generally love attention or create drama for the sake of drama because they can't come up with a storyline that's fluid enough to interact with other characters or Blizzard's intentions. They are the "special snowflakes" of the game, and they tend to go way out of their way to make sure everyone knows it.

If a character takes an action, ask yourself "Would a normal citizen of Azeroth do something like this in the context of Blizzard's story?" If the answer is 'No,' you may be talking to a Mary Sue! While it's important to realize that the players are supposed to be "heroes" in the game's context, it's also important to realize from an RP standpoint that Azeroth has a lot of heroes, and that we are all on the same level in the scope of the game and in relation to each other. Mary Sues don't get this and will insist they are some important character in lore that stands above the other players somehow.
If we're going by the old Star Trek fanfiction which spawned the term? A literal self-insert of the author who simply must overshine and outperform even the greatest of experts at any given situation or task regardless of experience or impossibility, and is loved and adored unquestioningly by major lore characters and is utterly cherished and can do no wrong.

...It's funny how a lot of things came from or were inspired by Star Trek and its fanbase. Far more than what you can get from Star Wars, at least!


Pretty much this. It's the only definition I've ever of when it comes to a Mary Sue, and it's pretty much the only one that matters. A Mary Sue has to be a self-insertion character, plain and simple. It's a character in which the author writes him/herself into a story in order to act out fantasies that they would not be able to perform in real life. Without it being a self-insertion character, it's not a Mary Sue and just considered bad writing.

They are typically considered poor characters because said authors are more concerned about making themselves awesome in the story's context than in actually telling the story itself. That's not always the case, though, and Mary Sues are not necessarily godmodders so much as characters driven only by the author's RL goals and desires. Bella in Twilight or whatsherface in 50 Shades of Grey come to mind. They aren't half-vampire, half-dragon god queens for the majority of the books, but they are definitely wish-fulfillment characters and, no surprise, are considered weak or poorly drawn characters to most of the literary community.

In the context of RP, at least WoW RP, I see it as being players who write themselves into the game as Kings, Queens, Dukes, sons of Garrosh, etc. with no regard or even blatant disregard for WoW's lore itself. They generally love attention or create drama for the sake of drama because they can't come up with a storyline that's fluid enough to interact with other characters or Blizzard's intentions. They are the "special snowflakes" of the game, and they tend to go way out of their way to make sure everyone knows it.

If a character takes an action, ask yourself "Would a normal citizen of Azeroth do something like this in the context of Blizzard's story?" If the answer is 'No,' you may be talking to a Mary Sue! While it's important to realize that the players are supposed to be "heroes" in the game's context, it's also important to realize from an RP standpoint that Azeroth has a lot of heroes, and that we are all on the same level in the scope of the game and in relation to each other. Mary Sues don't get this and will insist they are some important character in lore that stands above the other players somehow.


I couldnt have put it better myself. Its too bad, really, because a person can come up with a balanced character or even one that is well and truly flawed without them being a Sue.

As a side note... You do realize 50 Shades of Gray began life as a Twlight fanfic, right?
10/03/2012 12:06 AMPosted by Ghaoithe
If a character takes an action, ask yourself "Would a normal citizen of Azeroth do something like this in the context of Blizzard's story?"


This is unintelligent.

"citizen of Azeroth"? that means nothing

"Would a human born into a human noble family be a noble and behave like a noble?" That is a question that has meaning and also a very clear answer.

Two things. First, someone who has chosen their backstory and then applies it to their RP is not "being a Sue". It is only reasonable for the character's persona to be framed by their history the same way that a person is formed by their experiences.

Second, there is no uniform action that would be taken. The question doesn't actually take on any meaning other than to try to shut people down. It's really a statement veiled behind a question which is "your choices are wrong because you didn't do what I would have done".

10/03/2012 12:06 AMPosted by Ghaoithe
If the answer is 'No,' you may be talking to a Mary Sue! While it's important to realize that the players are supposed to be "heroes" in the game's context, it's also important to realize from an RP standpoint that Azeroth has a lot of heroes, and that we are all on the same level in the scope of the game and in relation to each other.


10/03/2012 12:06 AMPosted by Ghaoithe
that we are all on the same level in the scope of the game and in relation to each other.


No we aren't. It's as simple as that. I don't have to explain this very much. My warrior can trump your rogue. Countless others can defeat my warrior.

There is no support for this statement and it is illogical. The game mechanics do not support it and even if they did, game mechanics are neither lore nor do they set the rules for roleplay. (Really, for imaginary pretend-time should we set greater rules than play nice?)

And there is certainly no foundation for it in the lore. We are not "all on the same level in the scope of the game and in relation to each other".

In roleplay, and that is the only thing that matters here, a person's character is whatever the hell they decide it is.

10/03/2012 12:06 AMPosted by Ghaoithe
Mary Sues don't get this and will insist they are some important character in lore that stands above the other players somehow.


You're off and overlapping concepts. Someone being arrogant IRL, having an inflated ego, or whatever isn't the same as Mary Sue. Mary Sue isn't just someone you don't like or someone who is a jerk.

I can't remember her name because I was never a star trek fan, but that captain or whoever she was, was not a Mary Sue because the author was living out her fantasy. In my answer, I used the terms specific to roleplay because we aren't talking about a movie or a book, we're talking about roleplaying.

But you're not a Mary Sue if you are living out a fantasy, enjoying the game, having fun, or otherwise playing a character as something more than Farmer Joe. That captain on star trek was an awful character because of her plot armor, the lust and envy she inspired from characters that were obviously her betters, so on and so forth.

There is no trait which makes a person a Mary Sue. And now let's get real for a second here. This thread is obviously not about dukes, sons of Deathwing, demon hunters, or even self-insertions.

The real answer to the OP is as follows:

Gurvir isn't a Mary Sue because he is an alliance blood elf. Nothing about that "breaks the lore". It's not even lore-bending since we have confirmed accounts of blood elves in the alliance and/or on friendly terms.
I'm not sure with Mary Sues, but I'm not a huge fan of people trying to belittle someone else's RP for no particular reason.
I love how easily the term is thrown around by people who don't have a clue what it means...

What exactly is a Mary Sue?

Today "Mary Sue" carries a connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion (the writing of oneself into a fictional story). True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies" for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting. Such proxy characters, critics claim, exist only because authors wish to see themselves as the "special" character in question.

The term is also associated with clichés such as exotic hair and eye colors, mystical or superhuman powers, exotic pets, possessions, or origins, or an unusually tragic past, especially when these things are glaringly out of step with the consistency of the canon. These features are commonplace in "Mary Sues", though even a character who lacks them may be labelled a "Sue" by some critics. The term is more broadly associated with characters who are exceptionally and improbably lucky. The good luck may involve romance ("Mary Sue" always gets her man); adventure ("Mary Sue" always wins a fight or knows how to solve the puzzle) and popularity (the "right people" seem to gravitate towards the character). These characters have few problems while attempting to achieve their goals. "Everything goes her way" is a common criticism regarding "Mary Sues", the implication being that the character's inability to fail makes her insufficiently humanized or challenged to be interesting or sympathetic.


And there you have it.
Anyone who roleplays something I don't like.

As per the standard definiion.
Mary sues and gary stus, at least by traditional definitions, are author insert characters who are also perfect. They ignore previously-established canon to do further show off how perfect they are and play out a relationship with an established lore character. Everyone around the sue is supposed to love them and adore them, and when they don't (usually because they're played by other roleplayers), said sue will usually get belligerent.

A character being a sue is typical of a bad roleplayer, but a lot of what people have been saying isn't really sue territory imo. It's just bad roleplayer behaviour.
I believe this gives a fairly good indication of whether or not a character is a Mary Sue. Ironically, I just came across it the other day.

http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm
I believe this gives a fairly good indication of whether or not a character is a Mary Sue. Ironically, I just came across it the other day.

http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm


Ain't nobody got time for that.
I AM THE SON OF DEATHWING AND JAINA.
I believe this gives a fairly good indication of whether or not a character is a Mary Sue. Ironically, I just came across it the other day.

http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm


Ain't nobody got time for that.


Time and knowledge are intertwined.
I believe this gives a fairly good indication of whether or not a character is a Mary Sue. Ironically, I just came across it the other day.

http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm


In my opinion these are only good for fun and are not useful.

Anyway, I just did my paladin: Dorick the Steadfast and he scored a whopping 1.

Edit: I just did my newest character, the Bastard of Blackwood, and he only managed to score at flimsy 15 despite being the son of a lore character.
10/02/2012 09:35 PMPosted by Karob
Lilian Voss.


Why you gadda break my heart right now?
Just like "troll," this is another term that is often overused as an all-encompassing accusation against people holding different opinions or ideals than others. I have generally thought of it as someone who is played infallibly, always the hero, unable to be defeated, always right and good, etc.
Today "Mary Sue" carries a connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion (the writing of oneself into a fictional story). True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies" for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting. Such proxy characters, critics claim, exist only because authors wish to see themselves as the "special" character in question.

The term is also associated with clichés such as exotic hair and eye colors, mystical or superhuman powers, exotic pets, possessions, or origins, or an unusually tragic past, especially when these things are glaringly out of step with the consistency of the canon. These features are commonplace in "Mary Sues", though even a character who lacks them may be labelled a "Sue" by some critics. The term is more broadly associated with characters who are exceptionally and improbably lucky. The good luck may involve romance ("Mary Sue" always gets her man); adventure ("Mary Sue" always wins a fight or knows how to solve the puzzle) and popularity (the "right people" seem to gravitate towards the character). These characters have few problems while attempting to achieve their goals. "Everything goes her way" is a common criticism regarding "Mary Sues", the implication being that the character's inability to fail makes her insufficiently humanized or challenged to be interesting or sympathetic.


Pretty much.

However, if someone wants their character a certain way- let them. You can walk away, you don't have to be rude and pester them. Unless they ask for help, don't offer it.
10/03/2012 07:16 AMPosted by Elivina
However, if someone wants their character a certain way- let them. You can walk away, you don't have to be rude and pester them. Unless they ask for help, don't offer it.


Fully agree with this.

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