The Internment Camps

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I disagree with this.

He nearly caused another Cataclysm.

And Jaina's spell would have singlehandedly caused as much damage as a Cataclysm.

For her wave to make it all the way to Orgrimmar from Fray Island, it would have needed to be bigger than most mountains in Azeroth, while being comprised entirely of water elementals.

If a handful of molten giants being pressed into service could piss off the elements, it'd make sense for forcing a few hundred thousand elementals to do the same on a much larger scale to be more than a little bit worse.


Always possible that the way they were summoned is what made the difference.
10/09/2012 09:33 PMPosted by Ferlion
Always possible that the way they were summoned is what made the difference.

It's certainly possible, but then we start concocting more theories to reach our conclusions rather than just taking the facts as they're presented and running with them.

We know that the elements gave Thrall a vision for Jaina's impending spell but not for Garrosh's attack on Northwatch's Hold, despite the fact both had deleterious effects on the elements and the stability of the world.

We also know there was a massive difference in scale between the damage caused at Northwatch and the damage which would have taken place in Durotar (As in, you can wipe the entire zone clean off the map, cause it's gone.)

I don't think it's at all unreasonable for the elements (or Thrall, but that's another criticism altogether) to react more strongly to Jaina's impending destruction of Durotar. Certainly not to the extent people are saying it should be.

I don't think it's at all unreasonable for the elements (or Thrall, but that's another criticism altogether) to react more strongly to Jaina's impending destruction of Durotar. Certainly not to the extent people are saying it should be.


I think that there is no evidence to support that Jaina's spell would have caused harm, especially since she still used it.

She certainly didn't send it to Org, but the spell itself was still used.

But, considering how many plot holes that one scene alone had, I totally don't doubt that they just forgot to mention it.
I think that there is no evidence to support that Jaina's spell would have caused harm, especially since "she still used it'.

The difference is, she didn't send it to Org

The elements under her command are described as seething, wailing, desperate, struggling, furious, and a host of other adjectives that connote their general displeasure.

We don't talk to the Earthen Ring afterwards, but it's clear the elements were very much in pain at the whole thing. That the world hasn't exploded doesn't really mean that pain didn't exist.

10/09/2012 09:46 PMPosted by Ferlion
But, considering how many plot holes that one scene alone had, I totally don't doubt that they just forgot to mention it.

That's certainly not impossible.
But nothing like what happened with the giants, where the earth itself buckled.

Ahh well. In the end, it doesn't matter.
But nothing like what happened with the giants, where the earth itself buckled.

Ahh well. In the end, it doesn't matter.

It'd make sense for the earth to buckle when the earth is involved. Just as it made sense for the water to buckle under Jaina's spell when water was involved.

I think the whole debate is kind of pointless, which is why I can't wrap my head around people trying to villainize the Earthen Ring for opposing the enslaving of the elements.
But nothing like what happened with the giants, where the earth itself buckled.

Ahh well. In the end, it doesn't matter.

It'd make sense for the earth to buckle when the earth is involved. Just as it made sense for the water to buckle under Jaina's spell when water was involved.

I think the whole debate is kind of pointless, which is why I can't wrap my head around people trying to villainize the Earthen Ring for opposing the enslaving of the elements.


Ohh, on that I agree with. Both should be condemned by the ring.

I just think it's BS that that the elements themselves only got involved vision wise with the Alliance. It made it look like they were protecting the Horde. And, that heavy handed Varian lesson that was thrown in there certainly didn't help matters either.

But, I think we can both agree that Thrall riding into the sunset on a Ghost Wolf he summoned to an epic guitar rift was the thing that made the most sense in that entire scene.
Myself, I find it ridiculous that the Water Elementals sent out a distress call "HELP! WE DON'T WANTZ TO KILL ORCS" to Thrall, while the Molten Giants just... Went along with it. No direct message to Thrall, no distress call, just... The Earth's displeasure, which doesn't seem to be much.
But nothing like what happened with the giants, where the earth itself buckled.

Ahh well. In the end, it doesn't matter.

It'd make sense for the earth to buckle when the earth is involved. Just as it made sense for the water to buckle under Jaina's spell when water was involved.

I think the whole debate is kind of pointless, which is why I can't wrap my head around people trying to villainize the Earthen Ring for opposing the enslaving of the elements.


That's not what I get.

The point is that if the summoning of the Molten Giants was horrific enough to cause earthquakes when they were forcibly de-summoned how is it that none in the Earthen Ring even got a twinge and needed to be told via messenger.

And then when Org is in danger Thrall gets an IM from the water begging him to stop them from (and here's the big part) killing his people. At which point he throws his neutrality out the window and runs off to stop Jaina. Remember how even he thought about angry he was about Garrosh using the Giants he wasn't going to interfere EVEN IF JAINA'S GHOST APPEARED IN FRONT OF HIM.

That there is the problem.
In this regard I'm guessing it was the way they were being formed. That and the use of the Focusing Iris.

I get that it was a bit extreme, what she was doing to the elements, but my beef was how blatantly two faced Thrall was with how he wouldn't react to what Garrosh did, stating that being with the Earthen Ring was his place, but immediately rushing to save Org when he got the IM from water.

If Jaina had acted that way back when her dad was alive, there'd be no Orgrimmar since she would've helped her dad kill Rexxar instead of helping him escape.
10/09/2012 10:04 PMPosted by Kellick
I think the whole debate is kind of pointless, which is why I can't wrap my head around people trying to villainize the Earthen Ring for opposing the enslaving of the elements.


I wouldn't say we're villainizing the Earthen Ring. Rather, the major fallacy of neutrality is being observed far more rapidly with the Earthen Ring than in other organizations past. Pure and simple, when one of the factions start doing something that the big bads they just defeated were also doing, they do NOTHING to prevent, stop, or remonstrate with them, moreso in the case of the Horde than the Alliance.
10/10/2012 10:28 AMPosted by Elenie
I think the whole debate is kind of pointless, which is why I can't wrap my head around people trying to villainize the Earthen Ring for opposing the enslaving of the elements.


I wouldn't say we're villainizing the Earthen Ring. Rather, the major fallacy of neutrality is being observed far more rapidly with the Earthen Ring than in other organizations past. Pure and simple, when one of the factions start doing something that the big bads they just defeated were also doing, they do NOTHING to prevent, stop, or remonstrate with them, moreso in the case of the Horde than the Alliance.


So much this. Thrall going and telling off Garrosh didn't even have to involve telling him to stop the war. Just fulfill his role as a shaman and give Garrosh a warning against similar acts in the future. Instead the ER just sit on their hands and do nothing.

Meanwhile Thrall goes rushing off to stop Jaina when she summons a tidal wave of Water Elementals while somehow missing the fact that Garrosh had been summoning Kraken. Are shaman powers very specific on what they'll pick up on because it seems they're incapable of picking up on Garrosh's IWIN buttons.
10/10/2012 10:56 AMPosted by Zophor
Are shaman powers very specific on what they'll pick up on because it seems they're incapable of picking up on Garrosh's IWIN buttons.


Well, some posters have noted that there are a few differences between Jaina's Tidal Wave, and what Garrosh's Dark Shamans were doing. The use of the Focusing Iris, for example, or that Jaina was taking the time to build up the wave.

Oh, and that in Jaina's case, Orgrimmar was being directly threatened.

Wonderful to see Go'el's neutrality remains utterly biased.
10/10/2012 11:42 AMPosted by Elenie
Go'el's neutrality


Better than Thrall's leadership

Boom!

/pelvic thrust

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