Noxxic question about dps

Rogue
http://www.noxxic.com I was looking though and saw that basicly rogues most specs are dead last in Simcraft dps. Is this site a good source of info? The reason I ask it seems that I have having a harder time killing stuff ... pvp as well ... than at 85. Also it said sub was the spec by 8K dps or more. Once again pve specs and dps.
Rogues aren't dead last in DPS. Sub is in the top 6 with full Heroic gear.

http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14H.html
k So the Noxxic site is wrong then? only behind mages Warlocks and warriors?
Use Noxxic as a guide, but don't rely on the numbers. Rogues are doing fine, and we're exactly where we are at the start of every expansion. Rogues scale incredibly well, so once we get our BiS gear our damage is going to go up and stay up.
Well sim craft was all done t14 gear looks to me. So I will check out sub I guess ... I have not played sub since .. BC I think
Where did I put that...

I know it's here somewhere.

AH! Here it is.

SimCraft numbers mean very little in the "real" world. (By which I mean the fake world of Azeroth.) For one thing, we don't know how accurate their simulations actually are, or whether they're properly and fully modeling how all of our abilities and talents work, and how they interact with one another. For another, SimCraft by its nature assumes a boss fight that does not exist: A fight in which you are sitting behind the boss and stabbing it, period -- no movement, no adds, no special mechanic of any kind that will change anything about the selection and timing of your abilities.

So always, always take the DPS numbers you see on SimCraft with a whole bag of salt. SimCraft can be useful for many purposes, but it falls seriously short in terms of providing an accurate, clear answer as to which spec is "best" for high-end PvE.

We should begin to get an ever-so-slightly better look at how DPS shakes out spec by spec once raiding begins this week. But it's still going to be weeks before we really start to know what's up, at least in terms of which spec is best on single-target fights.
Well simcraft uses the formulas seen and tested. And yes it is a patchwerk fight, but as a baseline. Everyone claims it is not a good measure of how dps is. So how do you say it is bad? and what is better .. if at all?
Also Noxxic is notoriously unreliable for Rogues. They often have info that is just plain wrong (rotations, stat priorities, etc...). There are much better resources for guides out there.
Ah ok cool do you have a better guide. I have been trying to read what I can, but I seem to be falling behind this x-pac
10/02/2012 01:45 PMPosted by Meanboy
So how do you say it is bad?

Pretty sure I outlined exactly the reasons why in my post above.

10/02/2012 01:45 PMPosted by Meanboy
what is better .. if at all?

Right now? Not much. We're at the very beginning of an expansion, and live raids literally were released hours ago. Theorycrafters aren't magicians, they can't create black-and-white answers when we don't have them yet, and there's only so far theorycrafting can go when determining DPS potential. What matters is how specs actually perform when used optimally by the best rogue players in the game.
Ah ok cool do you have a better guide. I have been trying to read what I can, but I seem to be falling behind this x-pac


Stickies in the rogue forums always work!

Many of them are works in progress, but they have most of what you need right now.
Verelyse's guide is in pretty great shape. There's plenty of nuance that's still up in the air, but he did a heckofajob pulling together everything we know to date.
Where did I put that...

I know it's here somewhere.

AH! Here it is.

SimCraft numbers mean very little in the "real" world. (By which I mean the fake world of Azeroth.) For one thing, we don't know how accurate their simulations actually are, or whether they're properly and fully modeling how all of our abilities and talents work, and how they interact with one another. For another, SimCraft by its nature assumes a boss fight that does not exist: A fight in which you are sitting behind the boss and stabbing it, period -- no movement, no adds, no special mechanic of any kind that will change anything about the selection and timing of your abilities.

So always, always take the DPS numbers you see on SimCraft with a whole bag of salt. SimCraft can be useful for many purposes, but it falls seriously short in terms of providing an accurate, clear answer as to which spec is "best" for high-end PvE.

We should begin to get an ever-so-slightly better look at how DPS shakes out spec by spec once raiding begins this week. But it's still going to be weeks before we really start to know what's up, at least in terms of which spec is best on single-target fights.


SimCraft does matter and the numbers provided do have value, don't pretend otherwise. Yes, the numbers and values associated are with top of the line gear on a boss that doesn't move (AKA, Patchwerk fight) but what other means can you gauge true DPS? On fights with tons of moving mechanics DPS values will fluctuate. Same with fights involving a lot of target switching. Those aren't DPS tests, as each scenario caters to a specific style, favoring some classes more than others. If that's what you mean, then sure, SimCraft isn't perfect in defining DPS values. But that's not the purpose of SimCraft. It's purpose is to show us what is possible under ideal and perfect circumstances. And it does a great job of that.

As for Rogues, if the DPS values for the specs were relatively close, I would agree, take the values with a grain of salt. But Sub is out-performing Assassination and Combat by quite a large margin. I doubt there are many circumstances in which raid situations will have Combat jump forward 7k DPS. There aren't many boss fights where you can cleave two enemies at once.

I'm not saying SimCraft is the end-all-be-all definition of what the top spec is. But it provides us with a very good reference and starting point. Sub is clearly our top DPS spec on a perfect fight; there's no arguing that. Will we see changes over time based on stat fluctuations and how well Rogues scale with our gear? Of course we will. But for now, a guide is all we can use. SimCraft gives us that guide.
I'm probably going to have to re-learn all the numbers I can about Combat PvP and be the new Celinne with a perpetually un-sticky-able guide for it aren't I?
SimCraft gives us that guide.


When your guide is flagged with a disclaimer:

Beta Release

Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta!
Not All classes are yet supported.
Some class models still need tweaking.
Some class action lists need tweaking.
Some class BiS gear setups need tweaking.
Some trinkets not yet implemented.
Constructive feedback regarding our output will shorten the Beta phase dramatically.
Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta!


It's still worth taking
with a whole bag of salt.


While Simcraft has value, it is very limited to the real world of rogues, and is useless to the average player.

Shadowcraft was of infinitely more use for rogues than simcraft was throughout Cataclysm. We can only hope that it will make a return for Panda land.
10/02/2012 01:58 PMPosted by Layke
SimCraft does matter and the numbers provided do have value, don't pretend otherwise.

10/02/2012 01:42 PMPosted by Rfeann
SimCraft can be useful for many purposes, but it falls seriously short in terms of providing an accurate, clear answer as to which spec is "best" for high-end PvE.

C'mon, man.

10/02/2012 01:58 PMPosted by Layke
But Sub is out-performing Assassination and Combat by quite a large margin.

Have they posted confirmation that they've adjusted their sims to take into account the Sanguinary Vein nerf (20% => 16%) posted on Sept. 20? Have they certified that they now feel their calculations are final and confirmed to be accurate? I haven't checked; these are genuine questions.
Well I think I got a good start here thanks for not having people saying LRN2PL@Y. I will go try sub tonight and see if the add dps will help and I like the play style.
Find me a better guide and I'll relent. Until then, it's the best idea we have right now. Use it or don't.

*EDIT* And I'm not arguing which is better, SimCraft or Shadowcraft. Right now though, we don't have Shadowcraft. There is no compassion at the moment.
Why does there have to be a black-or-white answer to this question now? What's the rush? Why not just use the spec you are best at, or enjoy playing most, and wait a little while to see how the numbers are shaking out in terms of raid performance on individual fights? If all three specs are statistically similar, as Ghostcrawler attested earlier in the beta, why not operate off *that* assumption instead of trying to force a square peg into a round hole?
Find me a better guide and I'll relent. Until then, it's the idea best we have right now. Use it or don't.


Even if it is the best we have at the moment, that still doesn't make it reliable. (Hence the disclaimer they've posted)

To go with that, the nature of simcraft (vacuum theorycrafting) limits its use in the actual game.

That's all Rfeann was suggesting, and there's no need to get huffy over it. :P

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum