Can someone explain - Windwalkers PvP / PvE?

Monk
I've been hearing a lot of complaints about Windwalkers lately for PvP and some PvE and would like to know exactly what's the complaining about?

I don't know much about monks and would love to know a little bit about the spec and why it's not doing so hot.

When I'm healing a dungeon I rarely ever see a Windwalker Monk and mostly Brewmasters for tanking, is it not fun to DPS as a monk?
Edit to top: All of the negatives I've supplied below should not belie the fact that I really like the foundation of the class, and I just think it requires some tweaking and new additions to make WW more fun, and more viable.

Well, right now from my experience, I can understand why. Windwalker Monks are pretty boring to play, and honestly are below par to other classes.

Think of Windwalker Monk (WW) as being a hybrid of two DPS classes, resource wise. They have the Energy of the Rogues, and the Holy Power of Paladins, but don't have the benefit of unlimited resources like Paladins do.

With that said, a PvE WW really only has a few moves. You use Jab to build resources (2 per and 3 once ever 20 seconds). Tiger Paw helps you build 15% penetration at the cost of 1 resource. You use Blackout Kick for 2 resources and get an additional 20% damage dot on the target. To compound on those 3 abilities, when you use Jab you have a % based on your mastery to proc free usage of Tiger Paw and Blackout Kick. Finally your bread and butter attack is Rising Sun Kick, which is equivalent to Lava Lash in damage, but also provides us a with a healing debuff, as well as a flat damage increase to all of our abilities for 10%.

This is really it. It's all they have to work with on abilities that we are consistently using in our rotation. Granted, we have things like Tigerseye Brew which gives 2% damage per stack for 15 seconds at a pretty large Chi cost. Energizing brew also gives us 60 energy over 6 seconds on a 1 minute CD, so that's okay as well.

You'll find that WW Monks have some pretty hefty passive abilities that account for a large bulk of our damage. First off you have Way of the Monk which gives Dual Wield 40% more damage, or Two-Hand 40% faster attack speed. Couple that with Tiger Strikes 8% chance to increase then next 4 auto attacks speed by 50%, you really get some gnarly white damage.

Our AoE really consists of 1 ability, with 2 long-ish cooldown abilities aside it. You have spinning crane kick at the cost 40 energy, which is almost half of our total for a 2 second channeled AoE. Remember, we only regenerate 8 energy per second base. Couple that with the 25 second CD Fists of Fury which spreads it's damage across multiple targets (which isn't something you see often called out in AoE abilities) that is prone to misfiring and not hitting all intended targets, and you have a pretty lack luster AoE rotation. I don't like to include Flying Serpent Kick, our 25 second straight line movement ability as AoE, simply because if you don't have it glyphed, you are likely to overshoot your target unless you move out of the way, which means it's only good as an opening to your AoE are moving into range, and not if you are already in range.

As you can see, we really only have 1 AoE, and 4 attacks. This makes WW pretty boring. Couple that with our lackluster PvP performance do the inability to break stuns or fears, and having to have chi to use every single one of our defensive abilities, you'll see why most WW's are unhappy with their class. For the sake of comparison, you can look at all the other defensive abilities provided by melee DPS classes, and you'll notice that they do not have resource requirements. Abilities such as Die by the Sword (warriors), Anti Magic Shell + Icebound Fort (DK), Barkskin (Druid), the multiple various means provided by Ret Paladins, First Tier of Talents of the Shaman tree, Various rogue abilities and talents.

As you can see, all of these things provided for other classes on the defensive side have no requirements for use that require having built holy power to use. Dampen Harm is the only thing we have that we must spec into that is free w/o cost, and has requirements for it to actually be useful.

Anyways, yeah that's a pretty thorough breakdown of what most WW monks are upset about.

PvE DPS needs to be more interesting, and PvP needs a bit more ability to break being locked down and killed due to lack of mobility and counter CC play.
10/10/2012 08:21 AMPosted by Drayjin
With that said, a PvE WW really only has a few moves. You use Jab to build resources (2 per and 3 once ever 20 seconds). Tiger Paw helps you build 15% penetration at the cost of 1 resource. You use Blackout Kick for 2 resources and get an additional 20% damage dot on the target. To compound on those 3 abilities, when you use Jab you have a % based on your mastery to proc free usage of Tiger Paw and Blackout Kick. Finally your bread and butter attack is Rising Sun Kick, which is equivalent to Lava Lash in damage, but also provides us a with a healing debuff, as well as a flat damage increase to all of our abilities for 10%.


This is inaccurate Tigers Paw doesn't help you build 15%. It helps you build 10% each time you hit with Tigers Paw stacking up to 30% or 3 TPs which applies a passive armor ignore.

You also neglected to mention FoF on single targets into the rotation.

Energy regen is based off your Haste so it doesn't stay at 8 very long.

I've never had issues with FsK if you can't pre-judge where you need to be play a different class I find it extremely easy to use, and it is worth using for the snare affect it toss out and it rougly will hit all targets around 10k in pve situations. Use it in conjunction with a tank that's pulling ahead of you and leaving adds for the dps to finish off to catch up.

Also you'll be spamming more of your utility CD's when AoEing along with energizing brew if your running into energy issues which most of the time I don't have issues spamming SCK.
With that said, a PvE WW really only has a few moves. You use Jab to build resources (2 per and 3 once ever 20 seconds). Tiger Paw helps you build 15% penetration at the cost of 1 resource. You use Blackout Kick for 2 resources and get an additional 20% damage dot on the target. To compound on those 3 abilities, when you use Jab you have a % based on your mastery to proc free usage of Tiger Paw and Blackout Kick. Finally your bread and butter attack is Rising Sun Kick, which is equivalent to Lava Lash in damage, but also provides us a with a healing debuff, as well as a flat damage increase to all of our abilities for 10%.


This is inaccurate Tigers Paw doesn't help you build 15%. It helps you build 10% each time you hit with Tigers Paw stacking up to 30% or 3 TPs which applies a passive armor ignore.

You also neglected to mention FoF on single targets into the rotation.

Energy regen is based off your Haste so it doesn't stay at 8 very long.

I've never had issues with FsK if you can't pre-judge where you need to be play a different class I find it extremely easy to use, and it is worth using for the snare affect it toss out and it rougly will hit all targets around 10k in pve situations. Use it in conjunction with a tank that's pulling ahead of you and leaving adds for the dps to finish off to catch up.

Also you'll be spamming more of your utility CD's when AoEing along with energizing brew if your running into energy issues which most of the time I don't have issues spamming SCK.


Your response is coming off very hostile. Let me break down the things you stated.

You're right, I was under the impression it was 5% per stack on Tiger Palm, not 10.

FoF means that while you're stunning something, you're not doing anything else. It can be seen as situational.

Your comment about Haste is silly. Haste is 8 at base and doesn't stay there very long, but if you notice most monks are stacking Haste. That is uninteresting design.

Your passive aggressive comment about FSK is noted. However, when you are in a PvE scenario and in the face of a mob, you are actually going to LOSE damage by using it, since it will typically fly you out of range of the mob due to the delay in response from ending and starting the ability since it requires displacement of your character, and you generally will end up having to turn around to attack your targets. This is why I pointed out that FSK was at it's best when you are attempting to engage a target that is at range.

Finally, you stated you'll be spamming your CD's during AoE. At the end of the day how interesting is the design to spam Spinning Crane Kick through an entire pack? I'm pretty sure it's not as interesting as Shamans using Flame Shock, Lava Lash to spread it, Fire Nova for AoE then building Maelstrom to cast Chain Lightning. More setup? Sure. But also more damage, and more fun.

The monk needs to be able to use Touch of Death more often, and I even think it should be made into an equivalent of Execute and Shadow Word: Death. The ability gets very little use, and in the terms of both Boss Fights (good luck getting off a ToD with 225k or less HP left with 7-18 people beating on the boss doing 65k+) or worse, not even being able to use it in PvP unless you have full set bonus.

I want to press more than 3 buttons with 1 button on an 8 and the other on 25 second CD during a fight. It's uninteresting at best when it comes to PvE, and in PvP you have an absolute reliance on FSK to really lay the smack down due to it's buff, debuff, and damage coefficients. Oh, and good luck "bursting" someone down, and I hope that another player doesn't step into your Fists of Fury to split the damage.
10/10/2012 09:54 AMPosted by Drayjin
Your response is coming off very hostile. Let me break down the things you stated.


Irrelevant to the inaccurate information you provided.

10/10/2012 09:54 AMPosted by Drayjin
FoF means that while you're stunning something, you're not doing anything else. It can be seen as situational.


It's not situational single target it's a dmg gain end of story.

10/10/2012 09:54 AMPosted by Drayjin
Your comment about Haste is silly. Haste is 8 at base and doesn't stay there very long, but if you notice most monks are stacking Haste. That is uninteresting design.


It's as interesting as stacking haste on a Warlock? I'm not following you guy you're always stacking some type of stat on a toon so how is interesting on another class over a monk? same crap different class...

10/10/2012 09:54 AMPosted by Drayjin
Your passive aggressive comment about FSK is noted. However, when you are in a PvE scenario and in the face of a mob, you are actually going to LOSE damage by using it


Wrong Movement increase would be a dps increase I stated if the tank is pulling a head of you while your finishing off an existing mob FSK would be viable, also in AoE situations where you don't have the energy using this for the AoE dmg while you pool energy would be a dps increase (which is rare thing to need to do but its another reason I've used it.)

Also you stated generally you'll end up behind your target with FSK? You do realize you can cancel it any time you want right? If you're landing behind a target thats an operator error.
10/10/2012 09:54 AMPosted by Drayjin
I want to press more than 3 buttons with 1 button on an 8 and the other on 25 second CD during a fight. It's uninteresting at best when it comes to PvE, and in PvP you have an absolute reliance on FSK to really lay the smack down due to it's buff, debuff, and damage coefficients. Oh, and good luck "bursting" someone down, and I hope that another player doesn't step into your Fists of Fury to split the damage.


If thats all you're pressing thats an issue in itself and I'll just smile about it.

and your pvp reference I rely on ALOT more then FSK your references are terrible
It would be nice if you could make a coherent argument with proper punctuation, grammar, and less aggressiveness. I understand if that's the only way you can communicate, in an aggressive manner. But if that's the case, you should probably stop posting in public forums. Your responses come off as dripping with entitlement, narcissism, and aggression. It really isn't appealing to carry a discussion with someone who behaves in that manner.

PS: I'm not going to bother breaking down your reply, simply because you're only applying your comments to the direction that you feel works to your advantage. There is no objectivity in your replies.
I'm on a phone not interested in punctuation on the Internet on video game forums
And you're just out right wrong about fof and giving in accurate info lol I'm not working anything in
It says it all in the "core ablities" section, fellas. Take it or leave it.

To Esl: I've had more fun as a WW than any other class or spec thus far. I actually LIKE the simplicity of the core kit. I have great chase and damage; none of what Drayjin stated has been an issue for me by far in PvE. (I have not tried PvP yet.)

Honestly, I hate playing my rogue now because yes, you do tons of damage, BUT because there are so many varying rotations due to the multitude of finishing moves at hand, I just end up facerolling everything anyways (slight exaggeration, I'm not that terrible).

I honestly don't see what many dislike about Windwalkers. In my opinion, if you're bored of their moves maybe you're just bored of the repetitiveness that is WoW in general. With any class you're ALWAYS spamming a rotation that gets really old, really fast. So what? Get used to it, or maybe just uninstall and take a walk outside. Maybe learn to punch and kick in real life, haha.

Not trying to be "hostile," but it's not worth arguing over a class' kit. It's in fact more worth arguing what the best talent builds are than why a class (does/does not) suck, when that doesn't really help anybody become a better monk. ALL of what you two are debating could be patched at any given moment, so who really cares? This thread has become just another nerd knowledge contest. Unless you do this for a living, relax and stop trying so hard.
I could prattle on and on about what, when, why and everything in between but I am going to give you the most accurate and honest advice you are going to get on this matter and it is this; Until they make big changes to WW dont waste your time making one. It's super frustrating and that is universal. They foundation of the class and spec is great but the quality of the experience is so poor that there is no measure of theoretical playability that can change the fact that it's broken and unlikely to change soon. And by soon I mean in the next year or so.

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