disc v holy

Priest
Quick question, a friend told me that Holy was better in MoP. I realize the differences between them, and how each one is strong because I used to heal as disc (holy now) I don't really have problems in dungeons (starting raids on friday) but is there really that much of a difference between holy and disc, or is it just the playstyle you prefer?
We go Oom before other healers drop below 70%, our MP5 is broken, the mana you gain back from Rapture is way low and we have the worst healing(and absorb)/mana ratio.
You can "DPS" to heal, but is pointless, you go oom as well... but you will last longer
Holy is faring better than Disc at the raid level, and we're seeing them falling roughly in line with Paladins, Druids and Shaman on many fights. The exception from my WoL perusal is Feng, where the results are showing Monks far and away the best (top: 95k HPS), with the top Shaman and Paladins falling at around 60-63k and the top HPriests and Druids at around 53-54k. Disc Priests trailed at 47k. Feng is a high throughput fight, and we can't discount Disc Priests simply because their utility (mitigation) doesn't show up nearly as well, but it is an indicator of what may be in store.

I think Spinning Crane Kick will have to see at least a bit of a nerf to bring Monks in line with others, and Disc will have to be addressed—possibly in a few ways. Most pressing, I think, is how many short cooldowns we have juggle. Spirit Shell and Archangel are the main perpetrators, but any raid healing DPriest will almost certainly have Mindbender and may also have PI. It's a lot to balance and, ultimately, leaves the spec feeling clunky for raiding.

At the 5-man level, you should still find it being a toss-up; Disc does have the option of pushing DPS, but with the consequence of dropping more mana than Holy. I've found Spirit Shell useful for bolstering tanks, and occasionally the full group, but it takes foreknowledge, which you may not always have—each group can vary wildly. It can also be very difficult to use when you want to prepare the group for a pull like the final few in Shado-Pan, but have a tank who is all about go and is not willing to wait even a few seconds.
Holy is faring better than Disc at the raid level, and we're seeing them falling roughly in line with Paladins, Druids and Shaman on many fights. The exception from my WoL perusal is Feng, where the results are showing Monks far and away the best (top: 95k HPS), with the top Shaman and Paladins falling at around 60-63k and the top HPriests and Druids at around 53-54k. Disc Priests trailed at 47k. Feng is a high throughput fight, and we can't discount Disc Priests simply because their utility (mitigation) doesn't show up nearly as well, but it is an indicator of what may be in store.

I think Spinning Crane Kick will have to see at least a bit of a nerf to bring Monks in line with others, and Disc will have to be addressed—possibly in a few ways. Most pressing, I think, is how many short cooldowns we have juggle. Spirit Shell and Archangel are the main perpetrators, but any raid healing DPriest will almost certainly have Mindbender and may also have PI. It's a lot to balance and, ultimately, leaves the spec feeling clunky for raiding.

At the 5-man level, you should still find it being a toss-up; Disc does have the option of pushing DPS, but with the consequence of dropping more mana than Holy. I've found Spirit Shell useful for bolstering tanks, and occasionally the full group, but it takes foreknowledge, which you may not always have—each group can vary wildly. It can also be very difficult to use when you want to prepare the group for a pull like the final few in Shado-Pan, but have a tank who is all about go and is not willing to wait even a few seconds.


I'm actually noticing a pattern, since disc priests were virtually undisputed champs in arena healing in Wrath, Blizzard had taken a more "Cautious" approach to balancing them, and by cautious I mean: "Overnerf Disc priests at the start to ensure they aren't OP so we can bring them up to par later." This actually makes sense to me, but the "Overnerf" part is taken way too far. I'm fine with keeping disc a bit weaker at the start because I do remember being a !@#$% for people to try and beat through (1v1 duels with people usually resulted in a win for me by sheer virtue of them not being able to knock through my mitigation) But yet again, too much, too fast and they crashed and burned.
It's not even as simple as an overnerf. I haven't done any PvP in MoP, so I'll purely look at it from a PvE raiding perspective:

Put very simply, Disc lacks both synergy and grace.

Archangel does nothing for Spirit Shell, and neither AA nor SS help Atonement—so to get the most out of your healing, you shouldn't be working at all with Atonement while either is active. If you're popping AA every 30 seconds, you're getting 36 seconds of AA every 60 seconds. That leaves 24 seconds. SS is up for 15 of those , leaving 9. Take out a GCD for Mindbender, because that's what Discipline priests should be running for almost every fight (with only one exception of which I can think).

That means you have less than 8 seconds for Atonement, which is not enough time to build a double stack of AA to pop it on cooldown. You also have to consider that fight mechanics aren't going to let you get close to that ideal anyway because of boss ability cycling. So you're stuck juggling cooldowns, trying to both preempt burst damage by stacking Spirit Shell and ready yourself for the aftermath healing by getting a 5 stack of Evangelism.

You can't even adequately cycle AA and SS because they sync up every other go, meaning one of them gets left out—which one depending entirely on what you've had time to do.
It's not even as simple as an overnerf. I haven't done any PvP in MoP, so I'll purely look at it from a PvE raiding perspective:

Put very simply, Disc lacks both synergy and grace.

Archangel does nothing for Spirit Shell, and neither AA nor SS help Atonement—so to get the most out of your healing, you shouldn't be working at all with Atonement while either is active. If you're popping AA every 30 seconds, you're getting 36 seconds of AA every 60 seconds. That leaves 24 seconds. SS is up for 15 of those , leaving 9. Take out a GCD for Mindbender, because that's what Discipline priests should be running for almost every fight (with only one exception of which I can think).

That means you have less than 8 seconds for Atonement, which is not enough time to build a double stack of AA to pop it on cooldown. You also have to consider that fight mechanics aren't going to let you get close to that ideal anyway because of boss ability cycling. So you're stuck juggling cooldowns, trying to both preempt burst damage by stacking Spirit Shell and ready yourself for the aftermath healing by getting a 5 stack of Evangelism.

You can't even adequately cycle AA and SS because they sync up every other go, meaning one of them gets left out—which one depending entirely on what you've had time to do.


...What a damn nightmare. You know, between having too many abilities crowding my bars as holy and putting up with that nonsense as disc? I'll take holy.

As for pvp? Well they completely ripped out disc utility and replaced it with spirit shell, which is entirely unnecessary. And when fighting a team with an enemy healer with a mana pool that allows for dispel spamming? It's like shooting yourself in the foot really. There's also the fact that Guardian Angel and Pain Suppression are vulnerable to dispel spamming, relegating GA to a clutch save and making PS only useful when you also pop Inner Focus (provided that it's glyphed)
It is a nightmare—one bad enough that I found myself questioning my resolve to always play a healing priest. I'm clinging to my love, but I admit to feeling battered by that moment of weakness.
Disc works in PvE 5 mans. I wouldn't raid as disc on a bet right now.
Yep! Disc is plenty powerful in 5-mans, but only because you don't even have to worry about cycling CDs, etc.
10/04/2012 01:59 AMPosted by Elethia
Yep! Disc is plenty powerful in 5-mans, but only because you don't even have to worry about cycling CDs, etc.

yep, i love disc in 5man but i instantly will switch to holy for raids, disc overall needs an improve meant, you hit most of the points, my only issue is when theres contantly aoe damage I find it hard to even smite.
10/04/2012 01:47 AMPosted by Elethia
It is a nightmare—one bad enough that I found myself questioning my resolve to always play a healing priest. I'm clinging to my love, but I admit to feeling battered by that moment of weakness.


We can make a list of the CDs a Disc has at disposal:

Raid 1-2 times per fight CDs:

Pain Suppression

Power Word: Barrier

'Minor' Healing CDs you use:

Power Infusion (if you have it) - 2 min, 20 second buff

Spirit Shell - 1 min - Use on CD, 15 second buff

Inner Focus - 45 seconds - use on CD

Mindbender - 1 min - use on CD

Rapture Bubble - 15 seconds - use whenever CD is up, only use when needed (because you still lose mana unless you're at 13000 spirit)

Prayer of Mending (heal) 10 seconds - don't have to use it everytime it's up

Cascade/Halo/Divine Star (heal) XX seconds - Raid heal. Same as above.

Penance (heal) 10 seconds - Same as above

And then...

Holy Fire for Evangelism, 10 seconds

Evangelism stacks ITSELF, 20 seconds to use or refresh

Archangel - buff runs for 18 seconds, 30 CD

And that is not even counting spirit trinkets like the vial.

Don't forget the conditionals:

AA shouldn't be used when Spirit Shell is up

IF's crit portion doesn't scale with Spirit Shell either.

Atonement doesn't work with Spirit Shell either...

And then you have your own mana to worry about ALONG with boss movement and mechanics while managing all of the above.

I'm not even sure what a 'disc rotation' is at this point. This isn't something a buff to healing can remedy...Blizz will have to really redo disc and change some core mechanics to fix the issues.
10/04/2012 01:47 AMPosted by Elethia
It is a nightmare—one bad enough that I found myself questioning my resolve to always play a healing priest. I'm clinging to my love, but I admit to feeling battered by that moment of weakness.


I feel the same way - I've played a healing priest since day 1 and have stubbornly stuck to it throughout the years. It is just my favorite class to play. The world of logs rankings are quite disappointing, but I start raiding in a couple weeks (I'll be main speccing holy since I've always preferred it) and guess I'll just see for myself.

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