Unleashed Elements in rotation with EB

Shaman
10/08/2012 09:57 AMPosted by Vargun
I would like to ask exactly when the buff is given, directly after cast, or when it hits the target?


It's difficult to tell.

But the language of the spell tooltip seems to imply that the buff procs on hit.
Ok. So I had like nothing to do at work today (yay for nobody showing up to play at disney! -.-) and spent a lot of the dead time thinking about the theory that is your statement that EB should always be cast before a 7 stack fulm, and have found some concerns.

As we've gone through in this thread already, EB is approximately equal in DPCT to ES+Fulm. Assuming you make this decision 8 times in favor of ES+Fulm you lose 1 EB and replace it with a Lightning Bolt. If you make this decision in favor of EB, you need only lose 6 LS charges before you've lost an entire ES+Fulm and replaced it with a Lightning Bolt.

If you lose .75 stacks per choice in favor of EB, then it's a wash. Any more and it comes out in favor of ES+Fulm. With this premise set, I present the situations (that aren't all that uncommon) where you would lose some damage when choosing EB over ES+Fulm. Whether or not it balances out the lost EB every 8 decisions is up in the air, though the math that we have supports ES+Fulm.

1) There is every likelihood that you just cast a lightning bolt and are in the middle of casting another when you get this 7th charge. At this point, you're talking about losing 0-3 (assuming EO on the one that gave you the last stack) lightning shield stacks. Technically it's 0-5 because of EoE, but the chances are that are astronomical and only worthy of a side note.

2) If your cast of EB over ES+Fulm is too close to Flame Shock needing a refresh, it becomes an increase in dps to hold on to the Earth Shock to refresh the Flame Shock resulting in several lost LS charges.

3) A lava surge proccing mid-EB cast will be used later than one that procs in the GCD of the ES cast. This is a .5s delay on your next Lava Burst assuming no Surge procs. This barely deserves note because Surge exists, but I feel obligated to present everything.

I believe 1 & 2 together would net you 6 or more lost charges over 8 decisions, which would mean that more damage is lost choosing to cast EB first than is lost when choosing to cast ES first. What does that mean in the end if I'm right? That which one should be cast first is situational rather than set in stone, but that in general ES will be the better choice.

Now to clear up some misconceptions you appear to have about Simcraft.

10/08/2012 12:59 AMPosted by Minibattery
Simcraft has it's limit, the limit to judge a proc and base everything off flat value whereas in real life, in the game itself we decide when the situation is thrown to us.


Can your thought process for each and every situation be written out? If so, Simcraft can be programmed to follow your exact thought process without error. The only limit to what that program can do in this case is your own imagination.

10/08/2012 12:59 AMPosted by Minibattery
There is a matter of luck (Proc) which no machine can foretell


Foretell? No. Model it in the exact same way that the game itself does? Yes. In the end, it works out to about the same thing.

10/08/2012 12:59 AMPosted by Minibattery
when thrown a wild card you have to act,


See two paragraphs above. You can program simcraft to act exactly as you would act (well... what keys you would press) in any given single-target situation.

All this paragraph is telling me is "I don't really understand the program and therefore I refuse to use it" to which I respond: "Well find another way to account for and control every possible variable down to the point where the only difference will be the swap in priority between EB and ES, because until then your claim is nothing more than an unsubstantiated (albeit well-reasoned) theory." Hint - No other method for doing so exists.

We want numbers to go on. If you can somehow prove the math behind the theory is correct, then we can act. Until then we have an extremely difficult time believing you because we'd already done the math (and also confirmed it using a tool that is a compilation of nearly all of the math that has been done player-side on this game for the dps) and it indicates that you're incorrect. You've piqued my interest, and if you can answer the concerns I have on a theoretical level I'll help look into it further.

But when put in a scenario where you have to cast either whichever first ES + Fulm or EB. The Scenario plays out the same or rather casting EB > ES + Fulm will have a slight advantage due to EB buff applying to ES+ Fulm.


I would like to ask exactly when the buff is given, directly after cast, or when it hits the target?

If you receive the EB buff when it hits the target, then it will not apply to ES+Fulm if you cast it immediately after EB, while EB is traveling.


EB buff is obtained right off cast. Rolling thunder is on spell land.

The Speed limit is 100MpH, its dead at night, you know it is wrong to go beyond the limit, but you are tempted to do so because there isn't a cop in the corner to nab you. You could reach home 10 minutes earlier and get wasted earlier.

Procs are "legal" temptations, not wrong that you don't surrender to it, but you "could" have reached home earlier with a hanging sense of "guilt" for breaking the rules or a pang of "regret" should you follow the rule and that last beer got sold out 5 minutes earlier. (Though I'm not an alcoholic and do not encourage it)


wat


Ok I'll provide another "simpler" analogy, in my country of residence our express-way collects toll via a row of booths. Normally, the lane which uses the Touch Card would be faster. However, there is a time too when the Touch Card lane is piled up as compared to the Cash Lane (People not having spare change or reloading their Touch Cards). So at that time would you take Touch Card lane or the Cash Lane?

Taking any one of the lane does not result in a lost of funds (Exact same DPCT if EB or ES+Fulm either one is casted first). However EB is the Cash Lane at that point of time and ES + Fulm is the Touch Card Lane. If you stick with the mentality of viewing each spell DPCT individually instead of over a course of time you would naturally choose ES+Fulm, it is like saying I'd rather to stick to my Touch Card and not "waste" my money on the Cash Lane, but in reality nothing is lost, your credit in your Touch Card remains the same should you opt to take the Cash Lane.

What the difference is by taking the best route at that point of time you save time (Which in relative is Cooldown time of EB replacing a LB filler). If you really want another analogy in terms of bang for the buck, here it is. You queue up the lane you would most likely spend more gasoline than just taking the empty Cash Lane.

I hope this makes it clear what a situational occurrence which requires a player sound judgement instead of machination.
Ok I'll provide another "simpler" analogy, in my country of residence our express-way collects toll via a row of booths. Normally, the lane which uses the Touch Card would be faster. However, there is a time too when the Touch Card lane is piled up as compared to the Cash Lane (People not having spare change or reloading their Touch Cards). So at that time would you take Touch Card lane or the Cash Lane?

Taking any one of the lane does not result in a lost of funds (Exact same DPCT if EB or ES+Fulm either one is casted first). However EB is the Cash Lane at that point of time and ES + Fulm is the Touch Card Lane. If you stick with the mentality of viewing each spell DPCT individually instead of over a course of time you would naturally choose ES+Fulm, it is like saying I'd rather to stick to my Touch Card and not "waste" my money on the Cash Lane, but in reality nothing is lost, your credit in your Touch Card remains the same should you opt to take the Cash Lane.

What the difference is by taking the best route at that point of time you save time (Which in relative is Cooldown time of EB replacing a LB filler). If you really want another analogy in terms of bang for the buck, here it is. You queue up the lane you would most likely spend more gasoline than just taking the empty Cash Lane.

I hope this makes it clear what a situational occurrence which requires a player sound judgement instead of machination.


Did not read.
This thread is filled with information that isn't even fun to read.
After getting lost in all of this math and other mathsy stuff, is it safe to just go off

1) Lava Burst is stronger than Elemental Blast, and should be used ahead of Elemental Blast in the rotation.
2) UE is not worth using on Lava Burst.
3) Therefore, UE is not worth using on Elemental Blast.


?

And one more thing, based on that, is it still a dps loss to use UE for the first LvB? Just to bump the initial damage before we really get into the rotation. (I know we're not meant to use it in the rotation)

(Edited LB into LvB, forgot the v)
After getting lost in all of this math and other mathsy stuff, is it safe to just go off

1) Lava Burst is stronger than Elemental Blast, and should be used ahead of Elemental Blast in the rotation.
2) UE is not worth using on Lava Burst.
3) Therefore, UE is not worth using on Elemental Blast.


?

And one more thing, based on that, is it still a dps loss to use UE for the first LB? Just to bump the initial damage before we really get into the rotation. (I know we're not meant to use it in the rotation)


Are you talking about your opening spell when the fight starts? If so, I always open with EB, followed by the typical rotation, FS, LvB,etc... Not 100% sure its the right opening spell, it just made sense to me.
Yeah I'm talking about the opener. I usually do Fire totem -> FS -> UE -> EB -> LvB, but I see now that if anything I should've been using UE on the LvB.

Now that I'll be taking the spell priority into account, is

Fire totem -> FS -> UE -> LvB -> EB alright? Or should I not even use UE in my opener at all?
I always EB first because the time it takes to cast doesn't count against you as far as DPS goes. As long as tanks are counting down for you, you can time your EB to land on the pull, basically giving you a free EB so to speak. Then you are starting the fight with an EB buff, and you can go into your normal rotation.

I've tried quite a few opening rotations and this is the one that seems to give me the most dps.
EB, FS, LvB, Fire Elemental, Pop Ascendancy + Berserking, LvB spam
I've hit 150k+ in initial burst doing this.

I would like to re-iterate I am no expert, and you might wait for them to come back and respond.
10/09/2012 07:19 AMPosted by Thundër
After getting lost in all of this math and other mathsy stuff, is it safe to just go off


Yes. I switched my opener around midway through last week and got a noticeable bump in burst when holding on to EB till after Ascendance was over (so FET right before the pull -> FS -> LvB -> Ascend/Trinket -> LvB spam.)

10/09/2012 07:46 AMPosted by Thundër
Or should I not even use UE in my opener at all?


Not at all. The only time it's worth considering is when you can double-dip the buff on to both Flame Shock and Lava Burst, which isn't something you can do on the opener without getting a no-crit LvB.

10/09/2012 08:03 AMPosted by Vargun
As long as tanks are counting down for you, you can time your EB to land on the pull, basically giving you a free EB so to speak.


This actually sounds like a decent idea. I may try to incorporate that.
Sweet, thanks :D

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